How are the English different from us?

tac foley · 09-09-2015 10:31am

I have to agree. Modern English is a healthy stew of many other languages, including some Irish, of course. REAL English took a hit when the Normans arrived, but their French input was soon assimilated into the linguistic melting pot, as was Greek and Latin. Only the genuinely Germanic languages - German, Dutch for the most part - have retained the descriptive names of items and devices that have long been named by the Greeks and the Romans in modern English - Fernsprecher/Telefon/Telephone and so on...

BTW, how do you say 'helicopter', 'gas chromography' or 'hydro-electric' in Irish?

tac

Peregrinus · 09-09-2015 1:36pm

tac foley wrote: »

BTW, how do you say 'helicopter', 'gas chromography' or 'hydro-electric' in Irish?

tac

We use Greek and Latin borrowings, like English does.

Irish has rather fewer borrowings of this kind than English does, but they are concentrated on scientific and technical fields, and recent inventions. But even in these areas English often uses borrowings ("computer") where Irish uses an indigenous word ("riomhaire").

tac foley · 09-09-2015 3:09pm

My comment was in the nature of a rhetorical question, not a serious discourse into the ethnology of current language. Since I changed my Japanese desk-top and keyboard for a Western model, I've been able to use emoticons - perhaps you noted the one that used at the end of my post?

tac

Peregrinus · 09-09-2015 3:31pm

I'll accept linguistic borrowings, but I draw the line at emoticons!

dubhthach · 09-09-2015 5:45pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

We use Greek and Latin borrowings, like English does.

Irish has rather fewer borrowings of this kind than English does, but they are concentrated on scientific and technical fields, and recent inventions. But even in these areas English often uses borrowings ("computer") where Irish uses an indigenous word ("riomhaire").

I remember coming across someone saying that "riomhaire" was makey uppy word, pointed them at mid 18th century Irish dictionary that had the word in it (obviously meaning was same as "computer" had in 18th century english). That silenced that conversation!

brooke 2 · 09-09-2015 6:01pm

magicmushroom wrote: »

I'm not really sure of the reasons to be honest.

I like the way that here, the family stay with the body until burial, that is really nice and I would have liked to have that option for relatives of mine that have passed away at home.
On the other hand, when we cremated my dear Granddad last year who I was extremely close with and heartbroken by his death, I really needed that 2 weeks to come to terms with him being gone - having his funeral only a couple of days after this death would have been far too soon for me, I wouldn't have been ready to say goodbye. If that makes sense.

Irish funerals are far too speedy!

I was devastated when my mother died at how fast events occurred - she died on Tuesday morning, was brought to the church on Wednesday evening and was buried on Thursday. My head was spinning - I would have much preferred the English way of doing things.

Lord Riverside · 09-09-2015 7:35pm

dubhthach wrote: »

I remember coming across someone saying that "riomhaire" was makey uppy word, pointed them at mid 18th century Irish dictionary that had the word in it (obviously meaning was same as "computer" had in 18th century english). That silenced that conversation!

Out of interest, about 30% of English words come from Latin, another 30% from French, and about 25 % from German.

tac foley · 09-09-2015 8:18pm

Lord Riverside wrote: »

Out of interest, about 30% of English words come from Latin, another 30% from French, and about 25 % from German.

That doesn't leave much for the enormous amount of Greek in modern English, or for the HUGE amount of Norse, Danish, Old Scandinavian/Swedish and Friesian content either.

Your figures, Sir, are therefore somewhat suspect, unless you can point us at the source?

tac

Lord Riverside · 09-09-2015 8:39pm

tac foley wrote: »

That doesn't leave much for the enormous amount of Greek in modern English, or for the HUGE amount of Norse, Danish, Old Scandinavian/Swedish and Friesian content either.

Your figures, Sir, are therefore somewhat suspect, unless you can point us at the source?

tac

I'm afraid the only thing suspect is your allegations.
I can't link. Look up the wiki "Foreign language influences in English", and before anyone starts, about wiki, look up the footnote reference if you so wish, or post an alternative % and the source.

Ipso · 09-09-2015 8:50pm

Lord Riverside wrote: »

Out of interest, about 30% of English words come from Latin, another 30% from French, and about 25 % from German.

How could 25% of English words have come from German?

Celly Smunt · 09-09-2015 8:53pm

Ipso wrote: »

How could 25% of English words have come from German?

English is a Germanic language. German is a Germanic language. It's kind of like saying how could somebody's cousins come from Germany.

Ipso · 09-09-2015 9:06pm

Celly Smunt wrote: »

English is a Germanic language. German is a Germanic language. It's kind of like saying how could somebody's cousins come from Germany.

Yeah both are Germanic languages that derive from a Germanic common ancestor, so both languages would have words with shared origins not one with words coming directly from the other.

Lord Riverside · 09-09-2015 9:07pm

Ipso wrote: »

How could 25% of English words have come from German?

Have you never heard the Brits boasting about being "Anglo Saxons"
The Royal family are also of German origin. George V changed the name of his family branch from Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, to "Windsor" in 1917.

Ipso · 09-09-2015 9:33pm

Lord Riverside wrote: »

Have you never heard the Brits boasting about being "Anglo Saxons"
The Royal family are also of German origin. George V changed the name of his family branch from Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, to "Windsor" in 1917.

Yes, I know I'm being pedantic but a language having a Germanic origin is different than borrowing words from German (which is a modern language and most likey different than the language English derived from).
Ok, no more pedanting.

Dr.Nightdub · 10-09-2015 12:18am

tac foley wrote: »

IBTW, how do you say 'helicopter', 'gas chromography' or 'hydro-electric' in Irish?

Well the Irish for tape-recorder is "téip-heafadóin" (spelling may be dodgy). I know this because a school inspector in the 1970s took great pleasure in telling me and my mate who who were lugging such a machine into our primary school at the time. Needless to say, he didn't actually help us carry the damn thing.

Celly Smunt · 10-09-2015 12:50am

Ipso wrote: »

Yes, I know I'm being pedantic but a language having a Germanic origin is different than borrowing words from German (which is a modern language and most likey different than the language English derived from).
Ok, no more pedanting.

Well all languages were spoken before they were written, its only in the last 50-60 years that written language would be widely available to almost everybody.

Going back a bit now, when the Saxons came over to England they would have brought the German language with them (well a dialect from Saxony as German technically is not a language), couple that with a mixture of old English and you have modern English. Through spoken tongue the German language and the native English language spoken at the time change through accent, dictation and dialect creating what we know now as English.

Note that keeping the french and other latin influences out for simplicity.

tac foley · 10-09-2015 6:11pm

The Saxons were not the only ones to 'come over to England', a country name that did not exist at than time. Also coming over were the Danes, the Norwegians, the Jutes and the Friesians, as well as a few Swedes, ALL of whom left very marked inputs into the language. By the end of the eighth century almost half of the present-day England was occupied by these people, as can plainly be seen by the spread of place-names of Scandinavian ancestry from north to south, especially still in the North.

Every town or place ending in -ey, -by is Scandinavian in origin.

I agree that these languages are 'Germanic' , but to call them 'German' is a misnomer of huge proportions.

The Normans and their version [Fr] of French had HUGE influence [Fr] on the language [Fr] that became known as English. 99% of ALL words used in legal [Fr] and justice [Fr][ matters [Fr] are Norman French, as are cooked meats as opposed [Fr] to mobile [Fr] meat - Beef, Mutton, Pork all describe [Fr] ready-to-eat food. 'Drink' is Anglo-Saxon, but 'beverage' is Norman French. When you drive along a dual carriage-way, you are doing so in Latin, Norman French and Old English. When you engage [Fr] in archery [Norman-French], you do so with a bow [Norman French], but although your arrow has a name of unknown origin [Fr], the 'pile' or 'point', is French and the feathers [Old English/AS] are known as 'Fletchings' from French - 'Fleche'.

Even a cannon [French] has almost all its descriptive [Fr] terminology [Fr] in French, from the 'muzzle' to the 'trunnions' and the 'cascable', let alone the 'carriage' The 'touch-hole' [French and OE] takes the 'fuze' [French] and lighting it sets off the gun-powder [gonne - French, and poudre - French]'.

tac [Fr]

Celly Smunt · 10-09-2015 6:24pm

tac foley wrote: »

The Saxons were not the only ones to 'come over to England', a country name that did not exist at than time. Also coming over were the Danes, the Norwegians, the Jutes and the Friesians, as well as a few Swedes, ALL of whom left very marked inputs into the language. By the end of the eighth century almost half of the present-day England was occupied by these people, as can plainly be seen by the spread of place-names of Scandinavian ancestry from north to south, especially still in the North.

Every town or place ending in -ey, -by is Scandinavian in origin.

I agree that these languages are 'Germanic' , but to call them 'German' is a misnomer of huge proportions.

The Normans and their version [Fr] of French had HUGE influence [Fr] on the language [Fr] that became known as English. 99% of ALL words used in legal [Fr] and justice [Fr][ matters [Fr] are Norman French, as are cooked meats as opposed [Fr] to mobile [Fr] meat - Beef, Mutton, Pork all describe [Fr] ready-to-eat food. 'Drink' is Anglo-Saxon, but 'beverage' is Norman French. When you drive along a dual carriage-way, you are doing so in Latin, Norman French and Old English. When you engage [Fr] in archery [Norman-French], you do so with a bow [Norman French], but although your arrow has a name of unknown origin [Fr], the 'pile' or 'point', is French and the feathers [Old English/AS] are known as 'Fletchings' from French - 'Fleche'.

Even a cannon [French] has almost all its descriptive [Fr] terminology [Fr] in French, from the 'muzzle' to the 'trunnions' and the 'cascable', let alone the 'carriage' The 'touch-hole' [French and OE] takes the 'fuze' [French] and lighting it sets off the gun-powder [gonne - French, and poudre - French]'.

tac [Fr]

Exactly what I was trying to put across though shorter for simplicity sake..

German isn't a language, its a composition of hundreds of dialects, I didn't call it German.

dubhthach · 10-09-2015 8:34pm

English is a West Germanic language, it's closest relative among the West Germanic languges is Frisian, followed by Dutch and then more distantly German (High German consoant sound changes have shifted German away from rest).

Old Norse (ancestor of Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, Icelandic and Faorese) was a "North Germanic" language in comparison. The East Germanic branch is now extinct contained languages such as Gothic, Burgundian and Vandalic.

Leaving that aside all the Germanic languages share a common ancestor in form of Proto-Germanic which is usually dated quite late (post 500BC) mainly as it contained numerous loanwords from European Celtic languages (Gaulish etc.) that were borrowed before the sound changes evident in Grimm's law took place.

Lord Riverside · 10-09-2015 8:45pm

Ipso wrote: »

Yes, I know I'm being pedantic but a language having a Germanic origin is different than borrowing words from German (which is a modern language and most likey different than the language English derived from).
Ok, no more pedanting.

It's allright, you'll get it eventually I'm sure

tac foley · 11-09-2015 9:52am

Mae fy ngwraig, sydd yn Gymraeg, yn fy atgoffa bod y diddordeb presennol yn y cynnydd yn nifer y Saesneg yn sicr o basio i ffwrdd ar ryw adeg yn y dyfodol, ac yn cael eu disodli gan yr iaith naturiol Prydain, fel y siaredir gan y 'British' cyn dyfodiad y Rhufeiniaid.

tac

Fratton Fred · 11-09-2015 10:08am

tac foley wrote: »

Mae fy ngwraig, sydd yn Gymraeg, yn fy atgoffa bod y diddordeb presennol yn y cynnydd yn nifer y Saesneg yn sicr o basio i ffwrdd ar ryw adeg yn y dyfodol, ac yn cael eu disodli gan yr iaith naturiol Prydain, fel y siaredir gan y 'British' cyn dyfodiad y Rhufeiniaid.

tac

Is that a train station, or the sound of a cat being sick?

tac foley · 11-09-2015 10:11am

It's REAL British without any English in it.

Mrs tac says so.

tac

dubhthach · 11-09-2015 11:55am

Indeed well Proto-Brythonic (parent of Welsh, Breton and Cornish) is often called just "British" when talking about period 400-600AD, to contrast it with Anglo-Saxon.

What's evident is the Brythonic languages underwent influence from Latin during the period of Roman Britannia, part of reason for some of seperations from Goidelic (which obviously didn't). Of course some of key sound changes that distinct the two from each other (and from Proto-Celtic) only really happen in sub-Roman period.

tac foley · 11-09-2015 12:05pm

dubhthach wrote: »

Indeed well Proto-Brythonic (parent of Welsh, Breton and Cornish) is often called just "British" when talking about period 400-600AD, to contrast it with Anglo-Saxon.

What's evident is the Brythonic languages underwent influence from Latin during the period of Roman Britannia, part of reason for some of seperations from Goidelic (which obviously didn't). Of course some of key sound changes that distinct the two from each other (and from Proto-Celtic) only really happen in sub-Roman period.

'strue. Look at the Latin in present-day Welsh -

Ffenestr - window

Llyfr - book

Eglwys - church

Pont - bridge

Newydd - new

Many of the names of the months - Ianawr, Ffefraur, Mawrth, Ebrill, Mai, Aust and days of the week, too, Llun, Merchr, Sadwrn...

and thousands of others.....

See - http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/history/sites/themes/society/language_romans.shtml

tac

PS - apologies for thread-drift - I'll stop here.

dubhthach · 11-09-2015 1:57pm

Sure and likewise Irish contains many loanwords from Latin, many to do with christianity. One loanword that surprises most people is Clann

Planta (Latin) -> Plant (Old Welsh) -> Cland (Old Irish) -> Clann (Modern Irish) -> Clan (english)

the P -> C shift implies a very old borrowing probably before 600AD as Irish lack a P phoneme at the time. Celtic languages lost Indo-European /p/ -- later in some of them kw (Q) mutated to p, this happens in Brythonic and Gaulish, but not Goidelic. As a result "Archaic Irish" as written on Ogham stones has distinction between "Q" (kw) and "C", however in old Irish sound collapsed with /k/ (written as C in Irish), so it's technically true to say that Irish is no longer a "Q-Celtic" language

An example of another early borrowing from Latin is Cáisc (Easter) from Old Irish Cásc in turn derived from Latin Pascha, which ultimately derives all way back to Hebrew פֶּסַח ‎(pesaḥ)

dpe · 11-09-2015 2:44pm

Interesting thread, and as a Brit who's lived in Ireland for several years now, I've thought about it a lot. First of all I think class is a more significant area of common ground across lots of countries, so I'll put that out there right now; if you're middle class in the UK, and middle class in Ireland, the differences are superficial. Yes there's the funeral thing (weddings on the other hand are exactly the same), and the GAA is more significant difference than I first realised (I only really started to understand as my kids reached school age); and there's still some Catholic hangover (religion is a complete non-issue for the vast majority of nominally protestant Brits). Interestingly Irish should be a bigger difference than it is (I spent years living in Wales and Welsh is a much bigger part of daily life than Irish is for most people here), and I think that might end up being more important in another generation.

Finally the biggest thing you notice day-to-day? Rules. The English believe in rules, they stick to them (generally) and they expect to be held to them. In Irish life things are a bit more fluid, more of a guideline (to paraphrase Dara O'Briain). Example, if you lost your train ticket in the UK, you would expect to pay the fare and the penalty as the rules say; in Ireland, you'd be waved through. I've seen this kind of thing countless times; more of a respect for the individual rather than the system in Ireland (another example, the shop assistant who tells you to go to the rival store down the road because they have a better deal on). I think to a certain extent this is also why Ireland comes off as a bit friendlier than England; Ireland is a society that puts people first in general, and is all the better for it, although the dark side of that is that sometimes people have a poor understanding of the greater good.

tac foley · 11-09-2015 7:00pm

dpe wrote: »

I spent years living in Wales and Welsh is a much bigger part of daily life than Irish is for most people here.

The reason for that is simple, proportionally, far more people in Wales speak Welsh than Irish people speak Irish. My grandfather [my grandma's second husband] was not only Welsh, but did not learn to speak any English at all until he was around ten or eleven. His side of the family are still Welsh-first speakers, as are many in North Wales. My girlfriend way back then, who was Welsh, went to college in England, and of necessity spoke English there. But as I found out, the moment she crossed into Wales all her English was forgotten, which made for an interesting time, I can tell you. My Welsh improved dramatically in a very short period of time, and I've managed to keep up with it, more or less, with Welsh-speaking friends. I can't speak for Ireland these days, in any way, as I've never been to a part of the country where Irish was the prime method of communication, but I have to say that visiting Dublin over the years I've never heard a single word of it - and that's the capital city of a supposedly Irish-speaking nation.

tac

Lord Riverside · 11-09-2015 7:58pm

dpe wrote: »

(I spent years living in Wales and Welsh is a much bigger part of daily life than Irish is for most people here), and I think that might end up being more important in another generation.

That's because unlike the Irish, the welsh structured the teaching of welsh in schools correctly.
The pedagogy and curriculum for the teaching of Irish in Ireland is abysmal.
NI school children who opt to take Irish, get to take far less hours, yet can can speak and write it much better. Most people in the Republic who've gone through the Irish school system and who took languages are far better at French, German Spanish etc. with only 5 years, vs 13 or so years wasted in Irish classes in the Republic.

dubhthach · 11-09-2015 8:55pm

No the issue is simple Welsh didn't suffer a major calamity during the 19th century. There was more Welsh speakers in 1900 than in 1800, population of Welsh speakers kept growing, though obviously at slower percentage than total population growth. In comparison during the 20th century Welsh suffer major drop, only stablishing around 1991. Teaching of welsh school actually didn't really have an affect, after all 50% of population in 1901 were native Welsh speakers, they didn't need education system to speak the language.

In comparison Irish drop below 50% about 100 years prior around 1800, and as we know post 1850 population of Ireland was unique in western Europe in undergoing constant population decline for close on 100 years.

How are the English different from us?

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