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The Irish famine?

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    ChicagoJoe wrote: »
    "millions in aid raised privately in England" really, I have googled it but found nothing, can you provide any reliable links ?? Also you did not answer my question so I'll try again, if the Scottish refugees pouring into Ireland in the 1600's had not been shown such charity more of them mightn't have come and later hardship in Ireland as well as sectarianism etc would have been avoided?



    You didn't ask a question. You went off on a rant, anyway if my auntie had balls......

    Here you go,

    http://multitext.ucc.ie/d/Private_Responses_to_the_Famine3344361812


  • Registered Users Posts: 372 ✭✭ChicagoJoe


    You didn't ask a question. You went off on a rant, anyway if my auntie had balls......

    Here you go,

    http://multitext.ucc.ie/d/Private_Responses_to_the_Famine3344361812
    Read it, some good information in it but it doesn't say anything about "millions in aid raised privately in England".


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    ChicagoJoe wrote: »
    Read it, some good information in it but it doesn't say anything about "millions in aid raised privately in England".

    You are being even more trite than usual.

    The money donated by the Choctaw was incredibly generous, but pales in to insignificance compared to the money raised in England.

    A letter from queen Victoria read out in church of England services, resulted in over £170,000 being raised (around ten million in today's money).

    Then, of course, there was the large amounts of charitable work done with Irish immigrants in Liverpool and other cities the starving fled to.

    But of course, how can you praise the English for their generosity, that would make you a traitor.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭DarkyHughes


    slowburner wrote: »
    :confused:

    It was actually a UK famine as Ireland was apart of the UK at the time. It should be taught in UK schools as well as Irish ones as it's just a much apart of British history as it is Irish. Just because Ireland isn't apart of that country no more doesn't mean Britain should forget it.
    We still remember Irishmen's role in WW1 even tho they fighting for the UK & I doubt any of them knew much of the political climate of the time (home rule, Ulster etc...), they just went for adventure.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭DarkyHughes


    You are being even more trite than usual.

    The money donated by the Choctaw was incredibly generous, but pales in to insignificance compared to the money raised in England.

    A letter from queen Victoria read out in church of England services, resulted in over £170,000 being raised (around ten million in today's money).

    Then, of course, there was the large amounts of charitable work done with Irish immigrants in Liverpool and other cities the starving fled to.

    But of course, how can you praise the English for their generosity, that would make you a traitor.

    Lol. You just won't stand for a bad word said about England will you mate no matter what the subject is.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    What were your ancestors doing, were they one of the farmers who hired their own militia to protect their crops, or one of the city residents who went and gathered up starving beggers from the streets of Cork every night and carted them back to the countryside so they didn't infect their towns?There were lots of shameful acts during the famine, none more so than the inaction of the British government, but there's probably a number of people in this country that would rather people just kept pointing the finger next door.

    I agree to a point. The English/GB people weren't responsible for what happened. You're right in that it was largely the Anglo-Irish in Ireland, who made up most of the big farms, that contributed to the disaster along with the Government itself.

    It was the Landlords here and not the great and good of England that acted shamefully during that time (some notable exceptions excluded).


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    ChicagoJoe wrote: »
    Individuals made donations totaling $170 in 1847 to send to assist the Irish people. The noble Choctaw people, showed remarkable humanity to others in need in a foreign country far distant from them.

    And we repaid the poor craters by going out there once the famine was over and joining in in their slaughter :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    It was actually a UK famine as Ireland was apart of the UK at the time. It should be taught in UK schools as well as Irish ones as it's just a much apart of British history as it is Irish. Just because Ireland isn't apart of that country no more doesn't mean Britain should forget it.
    We still remember Irishmen's role in WW1 even tho they fighting for the UK & I doubt any of them knew much of the political climate of the time (home rule, Ulster etc...), they just went for adventure.

    An excellent point IMO that should not get lost in the mire of some of the posts on this thread.

    Does anyone with experience of UK schools have any information on whether the Irish famine gets much mention in British history books??? (Fred?)


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    Does anyone with experience of UK schools have any information on whether the Irish famine gets much mention in British history books??? (Fred?)

    Fred's a Limey? That would explain his reluctance to blame anything on the English :p


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    An excellent point IMO that should not get lost in the mire of some of the posts on this thread.

    Does anyone with experience of UK schools have any information on whether the Irish famine gets much mention in British history books??? (Fred?)

    We covered it fairly early on, not in detail though. It was kind of a continuation of the industrial revolution period iirc.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Lol. You just won't stand for a bad word said about England will you mate no matter what the subject is.

    Blame where blame is due. But in Ireland everything gets blamed on the English.

    I think it's in Angela's Ashes where the family throw out a mattress riddled with bed bugs and the father blames the English, because there were no bed bugs in Ireland until the English came. Always makes me smile.

    But my point is that the Choctaw Indians generosity is mentioned every time the famine is discussed, usually along with protestant proselytizing. Never ever, for example, do the Quakers or Baron Rothschild get a mention.

    Then you get crap about Victoria only gave £20 and stopped the ottoman emperor from donating more, then ordered the navy to stop his aid ships coming in to Dublin. There are still people who think Drogheda took his coat of arms in gratitude.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,636 ✭✭✭feargale



    But my point is that the Choctaw Indians generosity is mentioned every time the famine is discussed,(true) usually along with protestant proselytizing. (true)
    Never ever, for example, do the Quakers (not true) or Baron Rothschild (true) get a mention.
    Then you get crap about Victoria only gave £20
    (True. She personally donated £1000.)[B/]
    and stopped the ottoman emperor from donating more,
    ( Her government persuaded him to desist, thinking it would damage her image.)
    then ordered the navy to stop his aid ships coming in to Dublin.
    (Never heard that one.)
    There are still people who think Drogheda took his coat of arms in gratitude.
    ( That is an innocent mistake which even some historians have been guilty of. It's irrelevant to your point.)

    Crap about her navy stopping the ships coming to Dublin, while at the same time Drogheda expresses gratitude? How could a person believe both? Either the ships came or they didn't.
    The work of the Quakers is well documented and has been acknowledged. The bit about protestant proselytism is by and large a libel. It didn't happen or if it did it wasn't widespread.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,625 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    The ships were weren't allowed to dock at Dublin so they went to Drogheda.. but is it true or not??

    The Quakers are often mentioned I thought. There is a bit on proselytism in the text mentioned by FF above from ucc
    Private relief and proselytism or ‘Souperism’

    Private charities provided essential relief but the activities of a few were controversial. This is because some private relief was associated with proselytism, that is, missions to convert poor Catholics to Protestantism. Those who changed their religion in return for relief were given disparaging names: ‘soupers’, ‘jumpers’, or ‘perverts’. A few charitable bodies read bibles to the poor to whom they gave food. In the genuine belief that they were saving souls, a small number of Protestant evangelicals used the hunger of the Catholics as an means to convert them. In the west of Ireland, famine missionaries, such as the evangelicals Rev. Hyacinth Talbot D’Arcy and Rev. Edward Nangle, tried to win converts in this way . Some evangelicals believed, no doubt sincerely, that the British Government had caused the Famine by giving a grant to Catholic education, to Maynooth College in 1845: ‘It is done, and in that very year, that very month, the land is smitten, the earth is blighted, famine begins, and is followed by plague, pestilence and blood.’ On the total failure of the potato crop in 1846 there was a quick rise in demand for the services of these missions and by the spring of 1847 they were employing over 2000 labourers and feeding 600 schoolchildren each day. By 1848, the number of schoolchildren attending the mission schools had increased to over 2000, and 3000 adults were employed carrying out relief works, out of a total population of 7,000.

    Another well-known missionary who worked in the west of Ireland was Michael Brannigan, a convert from Catholicism to the Presbyterianism and a fluent speaker of Irish. In 1847 he established 12 schools in counties Mayo and Sligo, and by the end of 1848 they had grown to 28, despite ‘priestly opposition.’ Attendance soon dropped when the British Relief Association began providing each child with a half-pound of meal every day, but this ended on 15 August 1848 when funds ran out.

    The worries of the Catholic church are well put in a letter from Fr William Flannelly of Ballinakill, Co. Galway, to Daniel Murray, Archbishop of Dublin, 6 April 1849: ‘It cannot be wondered if a starving people would be perverted in shoals, especially as they [the missionaries] go from cabin to cabin, and when they find the inmates naked and starved to death, they proffer food, money and rainment, on the express condition of becoming members of their conventicles.’ The Freeman’s Journal condemned this as ‘nefarious unchristian wickedness.’ The Pope felt worried enough to urge the Catholic hierarchy to oppose the work of missionaries and, on one occasion, he reprimanded the bishops for not doing enough to protect their flocks.

    By 1851 the main missions claimed that they had won 35,000 converts and they were anxious to win more. Shortly afterwards, 100 additional preachers were sent to Ireland by the Protestant Alliance. Well-provisioned missionary settlements in such destitute areas as Dingle and Achill Island attracted many converts. The missions were generally opposed by the Church of Ireland. The impact of the missions was, in the end, slight and tended to be localised. Some charitable organisations (including orders of nuns) believed that the distress gave them an opportunity to teach the Irish peasantry ‘good’ habits of hard work. The missions, and even more so the illiberal reaction of the Catholic clergy, tended to encourage sectarianism. Besides, many converts had to go elsewhere because of hostility and contempt in their own communities.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    feargale wrote: »
    Crap about her navy stopping the ships coming to Dublin, while at the same time Drogheda expresses gratitude? How could a person believe both? Either the ships came or they didn't.
    The work of the Quakers is well documented and has been acknowledged. The bit about protestant proselytism is by and large a libel. It didn't happen or if it did it wasn't widespread.

    http://archiveislam.com/how-muslims-helped-ireland-during-the-great-famine.html

    Covered numerous times across the web and actually believed by many.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,625 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    http://archiveislam.com/how-muslims-helped-ireland-during-the-great-famine.html

    Covered numerous times across the web and actually believed by many.
    Is there any good articles debunking it?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred




  • Registered Users Posts: 372 ✭✭ChicagoJoe


    Jesus. wrote: »
    And we repaid the poor craters by going out there once the famine was over and joining in in their slaughter :(
    Only a very small proportion of Irish men enlisted in the US army outside of the civil war as the American army and navy were quite small until entry into WW1 as it was not perceived that anyone was going to attack the US by Canada to the north or Mexico to the south. I'd say much more Irishmen had to join the British army as economic conscripts to slaughter their way through Africa, Asia etc as part of the British army. Most of the Irish tended to stay in the north east such as Boston, New York or Chicago and barely involved in the ongoing ethnic cleansing out west. Besides they went to America in the hope of survival not conquest of the natives.
    Blame where blame is due. But in Ireland everything gets blamed on the English.

    I think it's in Angela's Ashes where the family throw out a mattress riddled with bed bugs and the father blames the English, because there were no bed bugs in Ireland until the English came. Always makes me smile.

    But my point is that the Choctaw Indians generosity is mentioned every time the famine is discussed, usually along with protestant proselytizing. Never ever, for example, do the Quakers or Baron Rothschild get a mention.

    Then you get crap about Victoria only gave £20 and stopped the ottoman emperor from donating more, then ordered the navy to stop his aid ships coming in to Dublin. There are still people who think Drogheda took his coat of arms in gratitude.
    The Quakers are rightfully remembered for their humanity, a group of people renowned for their charity today as they were back then. As for Victoria's alleged generosity, it's a bit like praising say Bertie Ahern for giving to Xmas charity's today. But would you not think she should have spent a lot less of her money on funding the British army and navy to be going around the world plundering, murdering and raping in her name ? She could have gave the money to charitable organisations to alleviate poor in Ireland and England instead of spending it to support killers and rapists in her name ??



    (BTW, the thing about throwing the mattress out is in one of Sam McAughtry's books not Angela's Ashes about his orange order father who had also in the RUC reserve for a while and who also refused to drink Guinness because it was made in Dublin.)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Yet another hate filled , unfactual rant from Chicago Joe I see.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭eire4


    Yet another hate filled , unfactual rant from Chicago Joe I see.





    Following your posts in this thread there is much anger and hate that resonantes sadly.


    I have often felt that a speach by say the President of Ireland on National Famine Memorial Day in which the president on behalf of the people of Ireland forgave Britain for the famine would be a positive step in healing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    eire4 wrote: »
    Following your posts in this thread there is much anger and hate that resonantes sadly.


    I have often felt that a speach by say the President of Ireland on National Famine Memorial Day in which the president on behalf of the people of Ireland forgave Britain for the famine would be a positive step in healing.

    Now you're just trolling.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    One would have to wonder about trolling or plain ignorance. I mean, how ignorant of economic history does somebody have to be to believe that Queen Victoria was funding the British Army? Or geopolitically ignorant of Africa (never a mention of the French, or the Belgians or the Dutch or the Germans?) Or that a heraldic device in a shield in use for centuries relates to a Turk from 160 years back?
    As for claims
    Only a very small proportion of Irish men enlisted in the US army outside of the civil war
    by a supposed American from Chicago, an opinionated ‘expert’ who does not even know his country’s history – the role of the Irish in the US army has long been studied, just one small example: there were 103 Irish-born soldiers fighting in Custer's 7th Cavalry. Of those, 34 died at Little Big Horn. And the 7th’s march is the “Garryowen”.
    The Windy City, Chicago, from an Illini word for ‘place of wild onions’. Windy City indeed, more like hot air!


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    A sidepoint but I wish people would stop using the "there was no famine, food was exported from Ireland" line.

    Famine doesn't mean there is no food, it means there is a widespread shortage or lack of food among some part of a society. The rich have ALWAYS had enough to eat throughout history! All famine is economic.

    To bring the point up to date, there are plenty of children starving today in countries whose produce lines the shelves of our supermarkets.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    Pedro?


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭eire4


    Now you're just trolling.



    No just making an observation given how quick you seem to be to point the finger of hate at others. You might need to look in the mirror a bit on that score.


    Personally I am more interested in healing and finding ways to help that process along. For instance as I mentioned I would love to see say our President give a speach on National Famine Memorial Day forgiving Britain for the famine. I think that would be a positive step forward in the healing process.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    eire4 wrote: »
    You might need to look in the mirror a bit on that score.

    To be honest Eire, I think your suggestion is ridiculous. Having said that, I also believe Fred is making an ultimately vain attempt to rewrite history to make himself feel better. Such escapades always end in failure.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    eire4 wrote: »
    Personally I am more interested in healing and finding ways to help that process along. For instance as I mentioned I would love to see say our President give a speach on National Famine Memorial Day forgiving Britain for the famine. I think that would be a positive step forward in the healing process.

    What healing process?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Jesus. wrote: »
    To be honest Eire, I think your suggestion is ridiculous. Having said that, I also believe Fred is making an ultimately vain attempt to rewrite history to make himself feel better. Such escapades always end in failure.

    I'd be interested to know where you believe I am attempting to rewrite history, unless you mean rewrite already rewritten history.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    Freddie, I don't know what you're trying to achieve in relation to the Famine by trying to tell anyone who'll listen that Queen Victoria stumped up a few quid to send over. It was a nice gesture for sure but it makes not one iota of a difference to the subject being discussed. Someone's analogy above about Bertie Ahern giving a few bob to charity or summat after being involved in destroying the Country's economy was pretty good.

    Look, the famine was a catastrophe of Biblical proportions and the people who ruled the Country at the time are squarely to blame. But you're right in that it was little the doing of the English or indeed the people of Great Britain themselves. Rather it was the Westminster Government but equally, if not more so, the Landowners in Ireland.

    If you're not coming across such conclusions from reading unbiased academic histories, then I'd suggest you are most certainly attempting to "revise" what happened to suit your own particular biases, my man.

    Look history square in the eye and accept the consequences whatever they may be.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Jesus. wrote: »
    Freddie, I don't know what you're trying to achieve in relation to the Famine by trying to tell anyone who'll listen that Queen Victoria stumped up a few quid to send over. It was a nice gesture for sure but it makes not one iota of a difference to the subject being discussed. Someone's analogy above about Bertie Ahern giving a few bob to charity or summat after being involved in destroying the Country's economy was pretty good.

    Look, the famine was a catastrophe of Biblical proportions and the people who ruled the Country at the time are squarely to blame. But you're right in that it was little the doing of the English or indeed the people of Great Britain themselves. Rather it was the Westminster Government but equally, if not more so, the Landowners in Ireland.

    If you're not coming across such conclusions from reading unbiased academic histories, then I'd suggest you are most certainly attempting to "revise" what happened to suit your own particular biases, my man.

    Look history square in the eye and accept the consequences whatever they may be.

    And where have I said any different?

    I use queen Victoria as an example of the way the history of the famine was spun, not because I'm particularly in awe of her generosity. I'm not quite sure why the comparison to Bertie Ahern is relevant, other than to again, belittle the monarch of the time.

    As I said earlier, the famine is used as a weapon, a recruiting tool for the uber patriots, as is the majority of Irish history.

    it makes me smile when the allegation of Victor writing the history is thrown at the British, when no consideration is given to the fact that the same applies in Ireland.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    As I said earlier, the famine is used as a weapon, a recruiting tool for the uber patriots, as is the majority of Irish history.

    By whom? And what's that got to do with history? It seems you have a problem with the likes of the Shinners and in an attempt to tackle them you're making the mistake of trying to dress up what happened in this Country. I would suggest a more productive way of "defeating" your political enemies would be to not make an additional enemy of the middle ground by attempting to make light of gross injustices which even the dogs in the street can understand and instead acknowledge and accept historical fact thus presenting yourself as an unbiased reasonable individual. I hate to say it Freddie but you're coming across as anything but on this Msg Board.
    I'm not quite sure why the comparison to Bertie Ahern is relevant, other than to again, belittle the monarch of the time.

    Interesting that you see an analogy between the two as a slight on Queen Vicky rather than a slur on poor old Bertie.

    A blunderer and a shyster of monumental proportions for certain. But I dare say Her Majesty would have far more troublesome queries about her reign than mere economical incompetence.

    Over to you Freddie lad ;)


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