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08-11-2003, 20:21   #1
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
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Éomer/Geromino Ancient and Modern military interventionism

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Quoted from Geromino
Second, so what you are getting a PhD in Ancient History. And your point was what exactly. The true question is, what are you going to do with that degree of yours. Will you research in which you will put your political views into your research and rewrite history and make it someone else's fault? Will you develop some new theory that aliens from "Planet X" came down and helped the Egyptians, the Mesopotamiams, or other ancient civilization in their society. Or will you expand the knowledge about the ancient world and present history and "HIS STORY" again.
Quote:
Quoted from Éomer of Rohan
My point was made already. I know more about this than you. End of.

If you would like an illustration of this then I suggest that you compare the most militarist interventionist society in the ancient world (which would be the Romans) and pick the worst possible single interventionist war they were ever involved in and then do the same for the USA (the country at which my earlier comment was directed) and consider the scope of territorial / political ambitions, the casualties involved, the devastation to land and all the other results of militarist interventionism.

You tell me then what your choices are with regard to militarist interventionist wars, the worst you know in ancient times and the worst you know in modern times and I will happily disprove you. I withhold my own personal choice of each to halt the inevitable spew of "that's not the greatest militarist interventionist war in ancient/modern times" that would be put forth.
Well come on Geromino, please take your best shot...
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08-11-2003, 20:25   #2
 
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Quoted from Geromino
Oh really! As far as relevance, then what about that crack "What could possibly be described as a hidden agenda about the world's most miltaristic interventionist society developing super-virulent agents capable of being employed in weapons?" And as I have stated, you have not seen a militaistic society until you lived in ancient times, not read or research them. Even the USSR cannot be compared to the ancient societies of military conquest and military society
As you stated, I have not seen a more militaristic society until I live in ancient times rather than just researched them...

so please, share your vast knowledge of ancient militarist societies, having lived there obviously...
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09-11-2003, 13:08   #3
 
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Quoted from Geromino
First of all, how can you compare Rome with the US in terms of military intervention since the definition has changed from the times of the ancient world and now...
It wasn't me that said...

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Quoted from Geromino
And as I have stated, you have not seen a militaistic society until you lived in ancient times
or

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Quoted from Geromino
You have not seen mititarization until you research ancient Greek, Roman, Hun, Aztec, ancient Egyptian, and Persian empires. USSR does not even come close.
It was YOU Geromino that first brought ancient societies into the equation by claiming that the US was not the most 'militarist interventionist society' (as I claimed it was) and used citations of ancient Greece, Rome, Persia and Mesopotamia to support this stance - you have yet to justify it and yet you still try and denigrate my own superior knowledge.

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Quoted from Geromino
First of all, how can you compare Rome with the US in terms of military intervention since the definition has changed from the times of the ancient world and now. In fact, the term "military intervention" has changed dramatically over the past sixty years. This is mostly because of cultural, political, economic, and socialogical changes that transform society, and the world to an extent, as a whole. But then again, you proved my point.
What point? You have made no point other than to offer the above generalisations.

Let me again make this perfectly clear for you. You disagreed with my comment that the US is the most militarist interventionist society in the world and cited ancient societies to back up your disagreement without actually having a clue about what those ancient societies were really like - as has been demonstrated by your continual (and poor) generalisations like the one above.

And as for interventionism, please tell me how the intervention of Rome in, for example, the Jugurthine War differs from the intervention of America in Vietnam. I know you may find conceptualisation a little hard but do try since I just know you are going to come back with the simplistic and obvious pathetic conclusion that "one for ideology and the other for resources" or some such nonsense.
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09-11-2003, 17:06   #4
 
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Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
It wasn't me that said...

It was YOU Geromino that first brought ancient societies into the equation by claiming that the US was not the most 'militarist interventionist society' (as I claimed it was) and used citations of ancient Greece, Rome, Persia and Mesopotamia to support this stance - you have yet to justify it and yet you still try and denigrate my own superior knowledge.

What point? You have made no point other than to offer the above generalisations.

Let me again make this perfectly clear for you. You disagreed with my comment that the US is the most militarist interventionist society in the world and cited ancient societies to back up your disagreement without actually having a clue about what those ancient societies were really like - as has been demonstrated by your continual (and poor) generalisations like the one above.

And as for interventionism, please tell me how the intervention of Rome in, for example, the Jugurthine War differs from the intervention of America in Vietnam. I know you may find conceptualisation a little hard but do try since I just know you are going to come back with the simplistic and obvious pathetic conclusion that "one for ideology and the other for resources" or some such nonsense.
Oh really! Let me see, I wonder who made the generalization of "USA is the most militaristic interventionist society [in history]." I assumed you studied or analyzed every civilization, including the USA (over 200 years of history) in which an actual comparison can be made. However, no actual comparison can be made for the simple reason that accomplished societies are unique in history for that specific time period. You are dealing with the various variances of economic, political, cultural, and religious dogma that is intergrated in the society and those dogmas have changed with history and time. What was important or accepted in one time period may or may not be accepted in another time period. Threefore, it is impossible to make comparisons of the various scoieties in our collected history and see "which society is on top" or "which society is the most destructive." In addition, your foundation of "USA is the most mititeristic society [in history]" is also totally baseless and should have no part in the discussion of modern history. More realistically, this is just another attempt to allow "neocolonialism" doctrine to rewrtie history and use revisionist tactics to dispell any society that does not agree with certain political philosophies.
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09-11-2003, 18:27   #5
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The US is the most interventionist ( if thats even a word) country in history. Not that its more incidious or evil but simply because it has the means. It controls a huge land area and has unparalleled economic power. This was aquired through a combination of military action and thread of military action.
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09-11-2003, 23:56   #6
 
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Now it is my turn to laugh MY ass off at YOUR answer Geromino...

Allow me to elucidate.

Quote:
Quoted from Geromino
Oh really! Let me see, I wonder who made the generalization of "USA is the most militaristic interventionist society [in history]." I assumed you studied or analyzed every civilization, including the USA (over 200 years of history) in which an actual comparison can be made. However, no actual comparison can be made for the simple reason that accomplished societies are unique in history for that specific time period. You are dealing with the various variances of economic, political, cultural, and religious dogma that is intergrated in the society and those dogmas have changed with history and time. What was important or accepted in one time period may or may not be accepted in another time period. Threefore, it is impossible to make comparisons of the various scoieties in our collected history and see "which society is on top" or "which society is the most destructive." In addition, your foundation of "USA is the most mititeristic society [in history]" is also totally baseless and should have no part in the discussion of modern history. More realistically, this is just another attempt to allow "neocolonialism" doctrine to rewrtie history and use revisionist tactics to dispell any society that does not agree with certain political philosophies.
Aside from your pathetic attempt to attack my post as a generalisation and say to me that I can't call the US the most interventionist and militarist society in history, you use the examples of ancient societies to say that I can't say that even going so far as to say that ancient societies were more militaristic - which you said here...

Quote:
Quoted from Geromino
And as I have stated, you have not seen a militaistic society until you lived in ancient times
So if I can't compare ancient and modern societies, why can you?

I on the other hand am saying you can compare them which validates both of our points as possible arguments - and have asked you to point out any given example of ancient intervention and contrast it with an example of modern intervention, conceptualised and in context, which you have as yet failed to do; so, one more time, which is it, do you think you can't compare them at all or do you think you will lose an argument if you agree with what you yourself said before you tried to change your stance and make a proper in depth comparison?

Quote:
Quoted from Geromino
More realistically, this is just another attempt to allow "neocolonialism" doctrine to rewrtie history and use revisionist tactics to dispell any society that does not agree with certain political philosophies.
Do you actually know how to use specific examples? Where have I used neo-colonial doctrine to 're-write' any part of history? It is you who was attempting to re-write history with regard to comparisons between the five ancient civilisations you tried to compare the USA to. So back it up or shut up.

Quote:
Quoted from Geromino
In addition, your foundation of "USA is the most mititeristic society [in history]" is also totally baseless and should have no part in the discussion of modern history
So, can you tell me why it is baseless and why it should have no part in a discussion on modern history or is there no part of your assumptions that actually have details and reasons to back them up?
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