All Ireland League 2019-2020 Talk/Gossip/Rumours

Tom Hayes gone to UL Bohs from Shannon

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

20s League isnt as monitored for good reason...
The AIL division 2 isnt as regarded by some but quality is still considerable and playing that would be far better than playing 20s and would challenge 18/19 year olds far more than playing within their own age group.
Cutting a divison maybe should happen but not really a major problem if there's 40 or 50 senior teams. 20s shouldnt have to be a requirement for a club to be successful. Look at Ulster clubs who by and large field more teams than most and never really field 20s.
20s grade at club level can be great but having 20s only played for shorter period of season and then players merge into adult teams would be far better overall for the sport.
Players should be playing senior rugby as much as possible and going to the top senior clubs doesnt help that especially some of the division 1 clubs who harvest 20s players and that leads to so many 19/20 year olds dropping out at that age. Having some/many of them playing AIL division 2 would be much better than that.
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I'd rather play 20s in a club in 1A then go down and play 2ABC with none of my mates in worse playing conditions. The standard of JP Fanagan Prem is exceptional and is the breeding ground for star players of the future, BEFORE they play Senior rugby. I guarantee you that just shuffling these lads down to 2nd rate rugby will turn more lads off then 20s and drop out like you say.

New forwards and backs coaches going into Terenure.

Forwards coach coming from Malahide I think.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Get more to go to a wider range of clubs. It isnt better for sport long term if we have so many of top players going to the small number of clubs in 1A rather than far more clubs across the divisions.
The standard of 20s premier division isnt exceptional. Its good but you're putting far too much on it. And AIL division 2 isnt 2nd rate and wouldnt at all turn more people off.

You're completely ignoring the point being made, people want to play with their mates

It isnt watched enough as standard isnt simply as high as some here are making it out to be.

In your, not very accurate, opinion.

Technically division 2A at least is certainly better and 20s fanagan league/munster league isnt more technical

I don't know about the munster league in general but from my experience of division 2 rugby and JP Fanagan rugby the JP has a higher ball in play time, quicker rucks and a more expansive game. These are the things developing players should be exposed to.

I very much am. 20s league is being very overhyped. Its good standard but has major issues with a tiny number of clubs with far too many players dominating it. That isnt good for the sport

And what major issues would that be?

Their system is very good though. Major issues in north are kids leaving the province to go to university elsewhere.

That's a really over exaggerated occurrence, many many players in Ulster don't go away for university but just sink when thrown into the sink or swim senior rugby.

How wouldnt it work? Play 20s to maybe christmas and then have players fold into AIL and/or J1/2/3s in the club. Guys can pick the level they feel is most appropriate. If they wish to play with their mates they stay at that level.

It wouldn't work because say a club has down to J3s, then you have 5 squads worth of players and you're saying mix them into 4 squads post Christmas. Even if you assume the U20 players are spread evenly through the teams that's everyones playing time reduced and will lead to players dropping away. Then come the next season half of those U20s are being pulled out again for U20s. Just doesn't work any way you look at it.

No it isnt.

It really is, it's very outdated.

Not at all. So whats your solution then to challenging player drop out rate. Trinity/UCD and other clubs with 50/60 under 20s is great for how long but surely it would be better with wider spread of these players and you get them playing the sport far longer.

What other club has 50/60 U20s players? Those two have that many because people want to play for their college, maybe they're up from the country and away from their local club, there are tonnes of reasons why colleges will have lots of players and that's not going to change and nor should it.

The system despite what you say is quite good and everything you suggest goes in completely the wrong direction from a player development point. U20s should be used to bring schools players into clubs and mix them with current club players. At 20s players learn the clubs style, get used to the atmosphere of the place then as they perform in 20s the cream of the crop can be called up to the AIL team, on off weeks and when returning from injuries and such everyone filters out to other teams in the club at their rough playing level and gets to know the players on those teams then when they get too old for 20s they're not joining a new team that they know nobody on which is important for social rugby players which below J1s is what they are.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

And they still can. And how many guys from same school will end up in the same few clubs?

As apposed to who?

Its quicker but how much exposure do players need for that. The level of top quality j1(metro 1/2 at least) will be similar enough from my experience

Far too many players in those clubs. Not getting enough game time. If you want to have 20s players play together by all teams do so but in adult competitions after christmas. Nothing stopping clubs having under 20 players playing on same team so they dont miss out playing with their friends

It isnt that over exaggerated and many dont sink. They find a far more appropriate level to play be it 2nds, 3rds, 4ths.

It has worked before. 20s players should be involved in 1sts or whatever teams their level is suited to. Clubs should be doing that rather than having 20s as stand alone teams.
It would work You wouldnt have to be mixing them into less squads and there is always cups/other leagues that teams can be played in.

And 20s still can be used to integrate schools players into clubs but not for the entire season. You have to look to the medium and long term and that is helping get these guys integrated into the junior set up within a club and the 2nds-5ths where appropriate.
Yes 20s can be used to learn clubs style where possible. Never said it cant. It just needs far more integration with the rest of the club

No they can't if you're telling players they have to play senior rugby they get spreat out and eventually fall out of love with the game quicker if they don't "make it" because they're playing for a club they've no connection with, at a lower level, with strangers. Actually most players from a school will go to the same couple of clubs. If you ignore the colleges for obvious reasons, then Terenure and Mary's graduates are obvious, Michaels will probably go to Lansdowne with Gonzaga, Belvedere will go Tarf, Clongowes is a bit different with the boarding aspect but a lot seem to go to Belvo, you see clumps of schools at clubs u20s teams.

People who aren't obviously biased against u20s for whatever reason.

A lot, that's probably the most important aspect of modern rugby being able to do everything quickly, read the game quickly, think quickly, execute quickly.

The guy that wants to merge squads after Christmas is going on about lack of game time.
So you want leagues to accept new teams half way through a season? Are you serious

Players that should kick on playing down the teams is sinking. These players are on par with other provincial sides through the age grades but after it there's a huge gap in quality.

Claims thinking isn't archaic, says they want to use the system that was used decades ago because it worked then.
You're still talking about players playing less games just to suit this weird dislike you have of u20s rugby for whatever reason.

There is lots of integration as is just some clubs do it better than others, that's the clubs fault not the systems

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

It isnt watched enough as standard isnt simply as high as some here are making it out to be.

I very much am. 20s league is being very overhyped. Its good standard but has major issues with a tiny number of clubs with far too many players dominating it. That isnt good for the sport

JP Fanagan Winners

Clontarf
LFC
LFC
DUFC
Terenure
Terenure
UCD
UCD

5 different winners in the past 8 years, I wouldnt call that dominated by a 'tiny number of clubs' sides.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

And if you look in the years before that as well its the same few clubs. That is a tiny number of clubs.
Shortening 20s season and integrating players into adult sides would be far more beneficial in the long term

But maybe lads don't want to integrate into senior sides and play at their level?

The tiered nature of the JP Fanagan covers off all levels and had about 30 teams in total playing last year (including Harry Gale etc). Of course not all games competitive but you get that in every code and level.

I saw above Navan mentioned, they won an All Ireland and then did a double promotion. Trinity won the All Ireland in 20s in 17/18 and then got to AIL semis.

I think even further on down, you have a Barnhall improving and winning 2 (I think) Premier 2s and then pushing into Premier 1 and getting promoted in the AIL. Old Wesley romped Premier 2 last year and have been outstanding in Junior Rugby

I think 20s in Dublin/Leinster is the only way to g about it

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

And if you look in the years before that as well its the same few clubs. That is a tiny number of clubs.
Shortening 20s season and integrating players into adult sides would be far more beneficial in the long term

Is that any different to the AIL though. Only Clontarf, Lansdowne and Cork Con have won it in the last 7 years?

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

20s isnt always more attractive rugby. Faster but not more attractive. And 35 year olds bashing people up? Have you actually watched any division 2 rugby recently like that.
And why then are numbers still not progressing through to adult levels much more with this excellent system of standalone 20s sides with feck all connection to the open age sides in the club within that season?

Yes I followed the AIL quite a lot this season and saw games live in all 5 divisions. How does Galweigans conceding 600 points in a season and being kept scoreless in 5 of 9 home games 'attractive'. Highfield were bigger and better than everyone this season just gone in 2A, and they just physically beat the living daylights out of everyone. If you dont think that the trade off as you go down the leagues is more physicality as a result of less talent then you are literally insane. We should maybe do a draft system and just chuck 50 teams into a hat and we'll see Con beat Seapoint 200-0 twice a season.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

So we should just accept it?
Integrating 20s into junior sides is more than fair enough.
Why just think about 1sts?
Thats the problem. What of the rest you need to expand beyond the few who may be able to progress while 19/20 years of age to the first team, Shorten the 20s season and get players involved in junior rugby competitions in some form. Get them playing in the leagues as well as the cups. Players then know the run of things within the clubs junior teams as in coaches, players involved. People here talk about 20s guys wanting to play with their friends. Shorten the 20s season and have guys move onto the junior 1s/2s/3s/4s in some way during that season. Far easier to turn up following season for pre season if you know the coaches/players through playing with them the previous season

The season is already 21/22/23 games at an absolute max if you make the all Ireland final, cup final and include qualifiers. That's a pretty short season already. Any shorter and you're talking about dropping competitions.

What the system already allows to happen is there's gaps in the season so players can go out to junior teams and get to know people on those teams.

Nobody is just thinking about the firsts except for you ironically. If a player goes to a div 2 team to play firsts in the hope of getting a province contract but doesn't get one odds are they'll drop away from rugby. Whereas if they join a club they actually want to play for and play 20s and the same happens they're far more likely to continue playing for the club whatever the level of team.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I do as player drop out rate isnt helped at all by the current system. Numbers dropping out of the sport to rarely return other than to turn up at pro14/h cup/internationals isnt helped by how the sport is set up.
A club not able to compete/field at 20s can change by throwing the players available into a metro 7..... they then can use those 20s players in an adult comp with additional players overage for 20s....
And you're talking about metro7. thats j3 standard. a team of 20s should be very comfortable at that level as an example..

So you're idea to retain players is to remove, or at least handicap, the transition level? Brilliant plan...

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

well 20s isn't helping retain players overall. Numbers playing drops considerably at 20s my idea is to forge greater links between 20s and the junior sections in clubs as from my experience they are very much standalone parts of clubs.
Clubs with 20s teams target small number of players but with junior rugby there is far more opportunities for people to play at far wider range of levels

It really is in one ear out the other isn't it. And what exactly is your experience all mighty one? Numbers would drop off far far more if there wasn't the buffer of u20s between youths/schools and adult rugby. How do clubs with 20s team "target" small numbers of players exactly?

Here's how 20s works say 5 mates are leaving school and looking to join a club. Say 1 is hopeful of getting Ireland u20s and the other 4 are a mix of levels. With 20s they all join a 20s team, integrate into a club and have 2 years to find their level, learn how the club play, improve their skills without too much size pressure, get to know more people by playing 20s, being in the clubhouse, going out to junior teams a couple of times a season, training against junior teams and as a result enjoy whatever level they end up at. Take away 20s and you have players split up in teams of people they don't know or playing at an inappropriate level while only knowing a couple of people, either way those players soon quit rugby