New Rule for eligibility to Away Opens

pete4pool · 22-08-2014 9:50am #1

Hi All,

As a golfer who is not able to get out every week and can not afford to waste money on big membership fee that I would not get value for, I joined Scarke GC in Wexford as a Distance member (€120) last year and this year. I then play open singles in nearby clubs when I can, maybe 7-8 a year, along with a few society rounds (which perfer when members have gui handicaps). So I am happy enough with what I have for now, until I get more free time or bigger wage to join one of my local clubs.

So my problem now is that I have found out that there is a new rule coming in at the start of 2015, that I have to play 3 competitions in my home course (Scarke - 3 hours away) before end of the year, so that I can be eligible to play in these away opens in 2015.

IMO, I can understand why the GUI has brought it in, but I do not think it is for the reason they are saying (so home club handicap sec can review your handicap once a year). I think the golfnet system works fine, but thats another matter.

Just wondering if anyone else is in the same position?
If so, what is your plan?
Does anyone know of a way around this?
what do people think of this rule? Will it be enforced?
If I do not play the 3 rounds at home, how will it stop me playing at away opens?

Obviously, playing 3 rounds in Scarke before the end of the year is the easiest answer, so if it comes to it, I'll likely make the trip up, but I could do without it. TBH

Thanks

Pete

big_drive · 22-08-2014 10:01am

It's probably just a result of individuals abusing the system. Personally I'm in favour of it and think it's a good idea

Beaulieu · 22-08-2014 10:39am

Its a great idea - too many people (& minority of clubs) abusing the system.

Russman · 22-08-2014 10:47am

I doubt if there's a way around it, in terms of avoiding playing the 3 rounds in your home course. No idea if the GUI along with Golfnet could come up with something whereby when you sign in to an Open Comp, the computer won't accept your card or you can't enter a score or something. They probably couldn't physically stop you playing unless you had to sign in before teeing off, eg. some clubs have the computer in the locker room but you pay in the proshop.

I agree its probably only partly to do with handicap monitoring and as much with trying to stop the haemorrhaging of members from Dublin/urban clubs to distance arrangements.

First Up · 22-08-2014 10:48am

Beaulieu wrote: »

Its a great idea - too many people (& minority of clubs) abusing the system.

Agree completely. Long overdue.

SnowDrifts · 22-08-2014 10:54am

As I've said previously, I also think it's a good idea however it should be much more than just 3 rounds. I'd prefer 10.

Freemount09 · 22-08-2014 10:58am

Anything to combat the banditry in the game is a good thing. However will it be enforced ? I imagine if you ask some clubs to post you out 3 of their cards, you could send them back completed with your €120 subs for the year !??

mike12 · 22-08-2014 11:02am

I think i heard that it will not register as a official handicap on Golf net. I have to say i fully agree thought it was 5 but they must have settled on 3. Lots of clubs down the country going to be busy for the first time.

cairny · 22-08-2014 11:09am

I can understand completely the motivation to join a distance club, golf is expensive and times are tough. In reality though open comps were designed to allow members of clubs to play occasionally at a different venues at a discount, the rationale being that it all evens out in the long run.

As a distance member you're availing of the discount without any meaningful quid pro quo. You ask if there's a way around the new rule, the new rule is just cutting off the original loophole.

If you can't join a club then green fees are the appropriate pricing point for you. Society golf is a good option.

mike12 · 22-08-2014 11:19am

Does anyone have a link to the rule or the exact wording?

Open Comps have changed so much in the last 10 years. Every Club used to have a open week where other members from other clubs could come play somewhere different as a discounted price. Now most open are held on a weekly basis and a lot very close to the green fee price.

SnowDrifts · 22-08-2014 11:24am

mike12 wrote: »

Does anyone have a link to the rule or the exact wording?

Open Comps have changed so much in the last 10 years. Every Club used to have a open week where other members from other clubs could come play somewhere different as a discounted price. Now most open are held on a weekly basis and a lot very close to the green fee price.

Page 2 here

https://www.gui.ie/home/general-documents/press-motions.aspx

mike12 · 22-08-2014 11:28am

SnowDrifts wrote: »

Page 2 here

https://www.gui.ie/home/general-documents/press-motions.aspx

Thanks, any word on how it will work for new members or if you haven't played 3 last year but played the first 3 this year will you be ok.

SnowDrifts · 22-08-2014 11:32am

mike12 wrote: »

Thanks, any word on how it will work for new members or if you haven't played 3 last year but played the first 3 this year will you be ok.

It's 3 during the previous calendar year so new members would not be eligible to play in away open events until the following year.

I'm also curious as to how this will be implemented. The GUI says it will provide guidance to clubs on the matter - they would probably want to start doing so soon.

pete4pool · 22-08-2014 11:41am

Thanks for the responses. All good info.

I can understand member golfers happy to see this rule as you are paying the high membership fee that is keeping the course going. But you are also likely getting value for money, where as if I paid €1000 a year, it would likely work out at €100 a round for me. Just can not justify that at the moment.

My only problems with the rule are.
1. They should call it what it is, to stop distance members (not to stop handicap abuse)
2. Should be made more public, only by chance I heard of this and only 2 good golfing months left in the year.
3. More detail on how it will be enforced.

Also, if golf clubs have a big problem with these distance members playing opens, then why do all of them have weekly opens? If golfers and club are against this, then revert back to the annual open week?

It could see the number of members fail alot next year if not in 2016 (as people do not know about it). And local club will start upping the membership fees again and returning golf to a rich mans sport.

pete4pool · 22-08-2014 11:42am

Also, I have a very good Q&A pdf on this, can I upload it here somewhere?

FixdePitchmark · 22-08-2014 12:18pm

SnowDrifts wrote: »

It's 3 during the previous calendar year so new members would not be eligible to play in away open events until the following year.

I'm also curious as to how this will be implemented. The GUI says it will provide guidance to clubs on the matter - they would probably want to start doing so soon.

That seems a bit harsh. Pay a good bit of money to join and are not a full GUI golfer for a year :eek:

Could they not have said 3 in last year or 5 in current year.

mike12 · 22-08-2014 12:28pm

Suprised it is only away singles as well.

PARlance · 22-08-2014 12:28pm

Good old begrudgery, old school elitism and head in the sand stuff from the GUI if you ask me.

I certainly haven't spotted any names of these clubs associated with the winners of any opens or non GUI events that I've seen. But the more I golf, the more I see and hear of "proper clubs" widely abusing the system.

Making someone play 3 rounds isn't going to stop a bandit.
But this may stop guys like the OP becoming a GUI member.... I'm sure the OP would play more golf (Via Opens) now than he would if he was forced out of the GUI and into social golf. That's less money in the golfing pot.
Just as well the GUI are inundated with new members....

Looking at it logically, no bandit in their right mind would go down this route for Open Singles.
He wins one, gets a 1-2 shot cut and then has to travel around to get his shots back... There's no easy means of picking up 2,3,4 plus 1s in a week that a "proper club" bandit could pick up in his local course (for free).

If the GUI want to get real about bandits they should focus their attention
-On "proper clubs" that are promoting banditry for a few club honours
-On team events, I'd certainly accept a blanket 0.5 (or whatever) cut if I was part of a winning team despite how I played. This IMO is the best and easiest way to address an area that is wide open to abuse.
-On non GUI events, clubs that are hosting these are all gui affiliated clubs... Why not tie these non events into the handicap process.

I suspect a big part of this is due to proper clubs getting their nose up about cut price deals.
I get the big picture here, golf can't survive if everyone decided to up sticks and join a club in Tipp or wherever.
But being a member of such a club isn't exactly a badge of honour.... I genuinely think that most do so because they are left without any other financial alternative.
The advantage of being a member of a local club is massive, most people will move to a local one if or when they can afford it.

Bandits will be bandits and they're in every club.
It's laughable that they are implying that 3 cards will give a better view of someone's ability.
If they make a bandit travel 70 miles to play 3 additional rounds... You can be sure he'll "make it worth his while"... He'll pick up at least 3 plus 1's and may even go looking for an general increase based on 3 disaster cards.

Russman · 22-08-2014 12:46pm

PARlance wrote: »

Good old begrudgery, old school elitism and head in the sand stuff from the GUI if you ask me.

I certainly haven't spotted any names of these clubs associated with the winners of any opens or non GUI events that I've seen. But the more I golf, the more I see and hear of "proper clubs" widely abusing the system.

Making someone play 3 rounds isn't going to stop a bandit.
But this may stop guys like the OP becoming a GUI member.... I'm sure the OP would play more golf (Via Opens) now than he would if he was forced out of the GUI and into social golf. That's less money in the golfing pot.
Just as well the GUI are inundated with new members....

Looking at it logically, no bandit in their right mind would go down this route for Open Singles.
He wins one, gets a 1-2 shot cut and then has to travel around to get his shots back... There's no easy means of picking up 2,3,4 plus 1s in a week that a "proper club" bandit could pick up in his local course (for free).

If the GUI want to get real about bandits they should focus their attention
-On "proper clubs" that are promoting banditry for a few club honours
-On team events, I'd certainly accept a blanket 0.5 (or whatever) cut if I was part of a winning team despite how I played. This IMO is the best and easiest way to address an area that is wide open to abuse.
-On non GUI events, clubs that are hosting these are all gui affiliated clubs... Why not tie these non events into the handicap process.

I suspect a big part of this is due to proper clubs getting their nose up about cut price deals.
I get the big picture here, golf can't survive if everyone decided to up sticks and join a club in Tipp or wherever.
But being a member of such a club isn't exactly a badge of honour.... I genuinely think that most do so because they are left without any other financial alternative.
The advantage of being a member of a local club is massive, most people will move to a local one if or when they can afford it.

Bandits will be bandits and they're in every club.
It's laughable that they are implying that 3 cards will give a better view of someone's ability.
If they make a bandit travel 70 miles to play 3 additional rounds... You can be sure he'll "make it worth his while"... He'll pick up at least 3 plus 1's and may even go looking for an general increase based on 3 disaster cards.

Exactly, its got little to do with banditry other than paying lip service to it. I mean if that's the best they can come up with to combat bandits, then golf really is f--ked. I really do believe its mostly to stop the exodus of members from so called proper clubs to the "get a handicap and play opens" option that's becoming more and more common. There's probably a million and one arguments and factors in that debate though.

FixdePitchmark · 22-08-2014 12:49pm

The bandit magnets . The big classics and challenges are been held in big presitgious courses. These have to come into the gui system somehow. These courses need to reduce prizes , not hold them or do more with handicap criteria to enter.

Interclub comps will have to be looked at - seriously looked at.

But this one year ban from opens is daft stuff. We dont need any more restrictions in people playing GUI / club golf.

Barnaboy · 22-08-2014 1:02pm

pete4pool wrote: »

2. Should be made more public, only by chance I heard of this and only 2 good golfing months left in the year.

I was full of sympathy for you until that ridiculous statement. Don't you know we have 4 months and 1 week left of good golfing months this year

PS Don't mind me, I need help :rolleyes:

GreeBo · 22-08-2014 1:03pm

Russman wrote: »

Exactly, its got little to do with banditry other than paying lip service to it. I meaI really do believe its mostly to stop the exodus of members from so called proper clubs to the "get a handicap and play opens" option that's becoming more and more common. There's probably a million and one arguments and factors in that debate though.

and I dont see a problem with that at all.
People paying minimal sums to get a GUI and then just playing opens isn't helping the current situation that clubs find themselves in at all imo.

Its abuse of the reason why distance membership was created/allowed.

FixdePitchmark · 22-08-2014 1:09pm

The best idea I've seen on Boards at all in a Golf sense - was Mike's about your GUI card staying with you for life.

It would be a bit like the Biological Passport in cycling.

It would have all your history in golf - clubs and comps and handicap.

This would enable a very accurate refection of a golfer and his ability and trends. In fact clever enough rules would allow only certain changes in handicap over time and in particular - the 3 new card trick would be killed.

It is a great idea - we have the cards we have the names we have the numbers we have the computer system to do it.

Also - perhaps there are restrictions in data protection - but any golfer should be able to look up any golfer. Who has anything to hide.

Sure your man was a "good 6 out of x club 2 years ago" would be gone.

blue note · 22-08-2014 1:36pm

GreeBo wrote: »

and I dont see a problem with that at all.
People paying minimal sums to get a GUI and then just playing opens isn't helping the current situation that clubs find themselves in at all imo.

Its abuse of the reason why distance membership was created/allowed.

I'd argue it is helping the situation. They're putting money into clubs by paying distance membership, paying open fees, buying food and drink after, and whatever else they spend and whoever else they bring.

If you take away their handicap, which is essentially what they are doing, the vast majority of these people won't pay full membership somewhere and will reduce their spend on golf. And the remaining club golfers will be the ones who will ultimately have to make up that lost revenue.

Russman · 22-08-2014 1:38pm

GreeBo wrote: »

and I dont see a problem with that at all.
People paying minimal sums to get a GUI and then just playing opens isn't helping the current situation that clubs find themselves in at all imo.

Its abuse of the reason why distance membership was created/allowed.

Yep, but you'd wonder if its a chicken and egg situation though - are there more opens now because the market is there ? or is the market there because the opens are so widespread ? Essentially the club members are subsidising the guys who just chase Opens all year.

I'd hate to see golf making itself less accessible for people, but where do you draw the line.

cairny · 22-08-2014 1:43pm

The OP's situation is a very common one. My take on it is of you only get to play 7 times a year then why do you need a handicap at all? It won't be a reflection of your true ability and you can't expect to be competitive in the opens with that level of practice.

Why not put the €120 towards green fees? Probably work out cheaper in long run what with golfnow type green fee discounts available and you won't be pouring money into the distance clubs that are just taking advantage of a loophole to line their own pockets.

mike12 · 22-08-2014 2:00pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

The best idea I've seen on Boards at all in a Golf sense - was Mike's about your GUI card staying with you for life.

It would be a bit like the Biological Passport in cycling.

It would have all your history in golf - clubs and comps and handicap.

This would enable a very accurate refection of a golfer and his ability and trends. In fact clever enough rules would allow only certain changes in handicap over time and in particular - the 3 new card trick would be killed.

It is a great idea - we have the cards we have the names we have the numbers we have the computer system to do it.

Also - perhaps there are restrictions in data protection - but any golfer should be able to look up any golfer. Who has anything to hide.

Sure your man was a "good 6 out of x club 2 years ago" would be gone.

It has happened to me twice once in the European singles Match Play and in the Irish 4 ball. Guy admitted that he was off 5/6 a couple of years ago but had taken a break and had gotten 12 whrn he came back. That shouldn't happen.
I just can't see any reason for any type of team comps not to be recorded on your GUI record. A simple record of the team score the winning score and your position in the comp would be loads and very easy for a handicap secetary to spot obvious trends.
To make it possiable to hold 2 handicaps is just madness. There is nothing stopping me from going to a second club getting 3 cards filled in and playing nothing but team events for the rest of my goiling life with that handicap, until now.

pete4pool · 22-08-2014 2:06pm

cairny wrote: »

The OP's situation is a very common one. My take on it is of you only get to play 7 times a year then why do you need a handicap at all? It won't be a reflection of your true ability and you can't expect to be competitive in the opens with that level of practice.

Why not put the €120 towards green fees? Probably work out cheaper in long run what with golfnow type green fee discounts available and you won't be pouring money into the distance clubs that are just taking advantage of a loophole to line their own pockets.

I was a full member of a local club a few years ago and joined this distance club, due to an injury that I knew would limit my play the following year, so did not want to lose my handicap, since my time has been taken up with other things so have continued the member ship.

It is actually alot cheaper to play opens on a weekday then to play green fees at the weekend, slightly cheaper than playing green fee during the week. But it would also be cheaper for me to pay green fees at my nearest club and play every second week (which would be a very good year for me) then pay the sub for the year. but I am not going to do that either.

But the main reasons I do it is, I find it hard to concentrate when the round is not important/competitive (sorry its my nature), most of my buddies are members of the local clubs and only play in competitions, so to get out with them its best/easier to do in the opens.

I am not a bandit, played 10 opens in the last year and a half, broke 36 once.

I agree that this will result in less GUI members, less people playing golf, less money going to clubs. And the only way they will get this back is to increase the subs.

If I could play every second week, I would find the money, because I know I'd get value out of it. Then I could play during the weekend which makes it easier and I could join club teams, etc.
Being a member of a local club is way better than what I am doing. But for many it is not an option. And with rules like this will make many give up the game.

There might be a few people, join local clubs because of this rule, agreed. But then in 2016 they will realize that it was not worth it and then give up.

TrapperChamonix · 22-08-2014 2:17pm

Before people get thoroughly exercised over this, can anyone say how many distance memberships there are?

alxmorgan · 22-08-2014 2:19pm

Whatever about any other arguments I think the fact that a new member cannot play opens until the following year is madness. Cannot see any reasoning behind that one.

KTS2014 · 22-08-2014 2:35pm

I was planning on joining Scarke at the weekend to get a handicap.
Does anybody know if I join this weekend, play my three rounds and get my GUI Card wheather or not I will be able to play in open days this year?

New Rule for eligibility to Away Opens

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