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Ratzinger - "Christians most persecuted religious group in the world"

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    eblistic wrote: »
    Indeed. What has persecution of Christians in Muslim or communist countries got to do with the OP?

    The OP doesn't mention Europe. It links to an article that mentions Europe and also says, "In the message for the Roman Catholic Church's World Day of Peace, marked on January 1st, he also reiterated recent condemnations of lack of religious freedom in countries in the Middle East where Christians are a minority, such as Iraq and Saudi Arabia.

    He said Christians were the most persecuted religious group in the world and that it was "unacceptable" that in some places they had to risk their lives to practise their faith."

    So persecution of Christians in muslim and Communist countries has everything to do with The OP.
    I'd also like to know where in Europe this goes on:
    In that case you should address that question to where anyone has said that is going on in Europe. Bit off topic for this thread though (IMHO).


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭Improbable


    PDN wrote: »
    The OP doesn't mention Europe. It links to an article that mentions Europe and also says, "In the message for the Roman Catholic Church's World Day of Peace, marked on January 1st, he also reiterated recent condemnations of lack of religious freedom in countries in the Middle East where Christians are a minority, such as Iraq and Saudi Arabia.

    He said Christians were the most persecuted religious group in the world and that it was "unacceptable" that in some places they had to risk their lives to practise their faith."

    So persecution of Christians in muslim and Communist countries has everything to do with The OP.


    In that case you should address that question to where anyone has said that is going on in Europe. Bit off topic for this thread though (IMHO).

    The OP didn't expressly say it but the actual article says:
    But he reserved his strongest words for Europe, where the Church says it is under assault by some national governments and European institutions over issues such as gay marriage, abortion and the use of Christian religious symbols in public places.

    "I also express my hope that in the West, and especially in Europe, there will be an end to hostility and prejudice against Christians because they are resolved to orient their lives in a way consistent with the values and principles expressed in the Gospel,"

    He did indeed mention the middle east but the main thrust of the article seems to be geared towards Europe.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    PDN wrote: »
    In that case you should address that question to where anyone has said that is going on in Europe. Bit off topic for this thread though (IMHO).
    It's really quite on-topic, since the thread title refers to the comments in which Ratzinger claimed that European governments were engaged in propagating "prejudice" in their attempts not only to cut down on homophobia within society, but also in their attempts to allow gay men and women to express their love for each other in a public way that's typically been denied them for religious reasons.

    I don't really believe that it's all that prejudicial to try to reduce intolerance and anti-social behaviour.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,925 ✭✭✭aidan24326


    Lol. This thread is an example of the historically illiterate, semi-rational, inarticulate modern atheist at his worst. The Pope is almost certainly correct.

    Maybe he is, I don't know enough to say for sure really. But when someone is as wrong as often as he is they deserve to be treated with scepticism on pretty much everything they say.

    In any case, it's a tad hypritical for the head of the RC Church to whinge about persecution, considering the persecution they themselves perpetrated for centuries.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,616 ✭✭✭FISMA


    robindch wrote: »
    Has anybody here actually witnessed anything that they could fairly call unprovoked "persecution"?

    To the OP, obviously you are not keeping up with world wide events.

    Many muslim countries still have Christianity outlawed and continue to bomb, murder, and slaughter Christians.

    Have a look at what goes on in Egypt.

    Most recently
    http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/01/01/egypt.attack/index.html?hpt=T2

    It is nothing new.

    You should widen your source of information. Your post displays a general ignorance of the violence Christians face on a daily basis.

    Four words for you to Google: Coptic, Christian, Egypt, and violence.

    Do you realize that it is illegal for a Muslim to become a Christian in Egypt, but not the other way around?


    2 seconds on Google
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians#Current_situation_.281989_to_present.29

    On January 2, 2000, at least 21 Christians were killed by Muslims in Al Koshh in southern Egypt. Christian properties were also burned.[139][citation needed]

    In April 2006, one person was killed and twelve injured in simultaneous knife attacks on three Coptic churches in Alexandria.[140]

    In November 2008, several thousand Muslims attacked a Coptic church in a suburb of Cairo on the day of its inauguration, forcing 800 Coptic Christians to barricade themselves in.[141]

    In April 2009, two Christian men were shot dead and another was injured by Muslim men after an Easter vigil in the south of Egypt.[142]

    On September 18, 2009, a Muslim man called Osama Araban beheaded a Coptic Christian man in the village of Bagour, and injured 2 others in 2 different villages. He was arrested the following day.[143]

    On the eve of Januray 7, 2010, after the Eastern Christmas Mass finished (which finishes around midnight), Copts were going out of Mar-Yuhanna (St. John) church in Nag Hammadi city when three Muslim men in a car near the church opened fire killing 8 Christians and injuring another 10.[144][145]

    On 2011 New Year's eve, just 20 minutes after midnight as Christians were leaving a Coptic Orthodox Church in the city of Alexandria after a new year's eve service a car bomb exploded in front of the Church killing more than 20 and injuring more than 40. [146][147]


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭Improbable


    FISMA wrote: »
    On January 2, 2000, at least 21 Christians were killed by Muslims in Al Koshh in southern Egypt. Christian properties were also burned.

    http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/januaryweb-only/43.0a.html

    Read it. It's from a christian publication and even they don't portray it as a 1 sided unprovoked attack on christians.

    FISMA wrote: »
    In April 2009, two Christian men were shot dead and another was injured by Muslim men after an Easter vigil in the south of Egypt.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8007919.stm

    Family vendetta and the 2 men killed had just been released from prison for murder. Not justified, but hardly unprovoked.



    Reading the actual material might be a good idea instead of blindly copy pasting from wikipedia. Also, if you read the actual report in the OP, the pope doesn't even mention killings like these, he mentions gay marriage of all things...

    Gay marriage is persecution and discrimination against christians? Give me a break.

    Of course persecution happens. It can happen any time people have a difference in what they believe. And if you want to get really technical, because the article focuses more on Europe, and robin specifically asked whether anyone has seen an unprovoked attack, the thrust was not so much whether persecution has ever happened (which of course it has), but whether anyone has seen it personally giving an indication of whether it was nearly as commonplace as the announcement by the representative would suggest.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    FISMA wrote: »
    you are not keeping up with world wide events [...] You should widen your source of information. Your post displays a general ignorance [...]
    And as improbable pointed out (and as you quoted yourself, but didn't read), I was wondering if people could report things which they themselves had witnessed and which "they could fairly call unprovoked "persecution"".

    I asked this for two reasons:
    • Because I travel a lot, including within many "islamic" countries. And while it's easy enough to find violence which is encouraged by religious mythologies and religious divisions, violence which is genuinely unprovoked is much rarer and it's this latter class that I was specifically hoping to learn more about.
    • Because Herr Ratzinger is (almost) literally playing with fire. By declaring the existence of massive, pervasive, systemic, worldwide persecution against his religious group, it's fair to say that he's at least helping to fan the very flames that he's pointing to with such lip-smacking energy.
    Yes, as I mentioned in some previous post in this thread, there's nothing new or unusual about violence which splits upon religious lines. It is hateful, fatal and contemptible. However, people have been at it, I would imagine, since the first supremacist religious movements arose and the first preachers discovered that they could acquire enormous political influence and power by declaring themselves and their group sanctified and persecuted, and everybody else damned and damnable.

    A bit of balance and perspective from Ratzinger would be wise and useful and might even help to calm things, but as above, claiming "persecution" plays very well to the home crowd and, unfortunately, into the hands of the other side.

    His current strategy will certainly not help resolve the problem, and current evidence suggests that he may not care about this very much.

    .


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