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Farm science.

  • 06-09-2016 3:56pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭


    Right i'll start off this thread.
    So if anyone knows any snippets of information or reads any useful info, put a link to it in here.

    Right this is what I know/read about urea and spreading.

    You should spread urea ideally max 2 days before rain. 10 -15 mm of rain is ideal for this. Care should also be taken on waterlogged soils to avoid losses.

    The process is urea when spread combines with moisture and the soil and turns to ammonia (gas). Ammonia will likely escape to the atmosphere unless it reacts with water to form ammonium. Ammonium is the plant available source of nitrogen while ammonia is not. Rain will turn ammonia into ammonium and wash it into the soil.
    High ph soils will change urea quicker into ammonia (gas) so more need to be washed in faster.

    Organic matter requires ammonia to rot/break down. So when applying dung or slurry, apply those first and then apply urea.
    The two are perfect partners. The dung traps the ammonia and all/most of the nitrogen is saved from the urea.

    Anyway that's the way I understand it. But this is a public resource so am open to correction and I hope the mods don't mind as I open this thread.:pac:


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 332 ✭✭merryberry


    pedigree 6 wrote: »
    Right i'll start off this thread.
    So if anyone knows any snippets of information or reads any useful info, put a link to it in here.

    Right this is what I know/read about urea and spreading.

    You should spread urea ideally max 2 days before rain. 10 -15 mm of rain is ideal for this. Care should also be taken on waterlogged soils to avoid losses.

    The process is urea when spread combines with moisture and the soil and turns to ammonia (gas). Ammonia will likely escape to the atmosphere unless it reacts with water to form ammonium. Ammonium is the plant available source of nitrogen while ammonia is not. Rain will turn ammonia into ammonium and wash it into the soil.
    High ph soils will change urea quicker into ammonia (gas) so more need to be washed in faster.

    Organic matter requires ammonia to rot/break down. So when applying dung or slurry, apply those first and then apply urea.
    The two are perfect partners. The dung traps the ammonia and all/most of the nitrogen is saved from the urea.

    Anyway that's the way I understand it. But this is a public resource so am open to correction and I hope the mods don't mind as I open this thread.:pac:

    Or you could use urease inhibitor treated urea. More expensive by volume but comparable to CAN on a price per kg of N


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,920 ✭✭✭freedominacup


    pedigree 6 wrote: »
    Right i'll start off this thread.
    So if anyone knows any snippets of information or reads any useful info, put a link to it in here.

    Right this is what I know/read about urea and spreading.

    You should spread urea ideally max 2 days before rain. 10 -15 mm of rain is ideal for this. Care should also be taken on waterlogged soils to avoid losses.

    The process is urea when spread combines with moisture and the soil and turns to ammonia (gas). Ammonia will likely escape to the atmosphere unless it reacts with water to form ammonium. Ammonium is the plant available source of nitrogen while ammonia is not. Rain will turn ammonia into ammonium and wash it into the soil.
    High ph soils will change urea quicker into ammonia (gas) so more need to be washed in faster.

    Organic matter requires ammonia to rot/break down. So when applying dung or slurry, apply those first and then apply urea.
    The two are perfect partners. The dung traps the ammonia and all/most of the nitrogen is saved from the urea.

    Anyway that's the way I understand it. But this is a public resource so am open to correction and I hope the mods don't mind as I open this thread.:pac:

    Virtually all of the N we spread here is urea and I wouldn't spread unless it was about to or just after raining. You don't need anything like 10-15mm of rain to get a full response as long as you aren't in a moisture defecit before spreading. A drizzly evening will do more than enough.

    For the rest I wouldn't question you at all. I'm starting to price up the cost of building enough storage to cover our entire housing period as I think it could be very cost effective with the better response to slurry applied in warm weather on dry soils.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,313 ✭✭✭✭Sam Kade


    I spread urea for a man one time in June 20 degrees in dry weather on a reasonable cover of grass. 2 weeks later and no rain the grass was after jumping out of the ground. I'd say with the cover of grass and a reasonable dew it will work.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,920 ✭✭✭freedominacup


    Sam Kade wrote: »
    I spread urea for a man one time in June 20 degrees in dry weather on a reasonable cover of grass. 2 weeks later and no rain the grass was after jumping out of the ground. I'd say with the cover of grass and a reasonable dew it will work.

    You don't really want to be there though. All fert is too pricey to be chancing it. If there's plenty of moisture in the soil the dew will get it washed in on a reasonable cover and the soil moisture will get it activated.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,313 ✭✭✭✭Sam Kade


    You don't really want to be there though. All fert is too pricey to be chancing it. If there's plenty of moisture in the soil the dew will get it washed in on a reasonable cover and the soil moisture will get it activated.
    At the time I thought he was mad as they say you have losses with urea when tempt goes over 20.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭pedigree 6


    merryberry wrote: »
    Or you could use urease inhibitor treated urea. More expensive by volume but comparable to CAN on a price per kg of N

    I hear good reports about this.
    Mind you it was the salesman.
    It is urea and the same processes apply however it gives off ammonia at a slower rate and a longer time period. So losses will/should be lower and be some favourable conditions at times to take it in. Although the opposite will happen too, there will be sunny windy days as well when the gas that it produces that day when the grass is short will go to waste.

    However it would be good for corn crops and I think it would be perfect for the 14th of Sept.:)


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,843 ✭✭✭kevthegaff


    Should there always be a cover with urea?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭pedigree 6


    kevthegaff wrote: »
    Should there always be a cover with urea?

    A cover of grass?
    Yes it will help reduce losses.
    But I have seen in the spring when spreading on skint ground and then a downpour of rain came and I thought it was all wasted and I got a great response.
    But it is perfect with dung/slurry.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,611 ✭✭✭Mooooo


    Can is as cheap now than the treated urea. Spread urea all summer till August and only stopped as can in the yard already to be used.
    They say the process of the n in urea becoming available to the plant takes 5 days, is it any faster in warmer conditions I wonder. And does the treated urea slow this down further?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,847 ✭✭✭Brown Podzol


    Virtually all of the N we spread here is urea and I wouldn't spread unless it was about to or just after raining. You don't need anything like 10-15mm of rain to get a full response as long as you aren't in a moisture defecit before spreading. A drizzly evening will do more than enough.

    For the rest I wouldn't question you at all. I'm starting to price up the cost of building enough storage to cover our entire housing period as I think it could be very cost effective with the better response to slurry applied in warm weather on dry soils.

    I wonder is the response to dirty water/dilute slurry in warm weather the fact that a portion of the nutrients are foliar absorbed instead of through the soil and roots. Tillage lads might know more about this method of applying fert.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭pedigree 6


    Mooooo wrote: »
    Can is as cheap now than the treated urea. Spread urea all summer till August and only stopped as can in the yard already to be used.
    They say the process of the n in urea becoming available to the plant takes 5 days, is it any faster in warmer conditions I wonder. And does the treated urea slow this down further?

    Urease is naturally occurring in the soil and it's the first step with urea coming into contact with it and turning into ammonia (gas).
    A bit of info here about the urease inhibiter used now and the slowing down of the process.

    https://www.ipni.net/publication/nss.nsf/0/EA265C5FE184D4F285257C8300753585/$FILE/NSS-25%20Urease%20Inhibitors.pdf


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,423 ✭✭✭Waffletraktor


    pedigree 6 wrote: »
    Urease is naturally occurring in the soil and it's the first step with urea coming into contact with it and turning into ammonia (gas).
    A bit of info here about the urease inhibiter used now and the slowing down of the process.

    https://www.ipni.net/publication/nss.nsf/0/EA265C5FE184D4F285257C8300753585/$FILE/NSS-25%20Urease%20Inhibitors.pdf

    Must admit, would be of the opinion most of these products are a marketing success over actual real world realities.
    Little and often will get your N efficiency into the mid 50%s for us mere mortals and the lucky/ocd types who pick exact weather to go might touch 60%.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭pedigree 6


    Must admit, would be of the opinion most of these products are a marketing success over actual real world realities.
    Little and often will get your N efficiency into the mid 50%s for us mere mortals and the lucky/ocd types who pick exact weather to go might touch 60%.

    They are going to gain ground though. Although according to that article it will work over 7-10 days where as if conditions were right or wrong for use, ordinary urea would be converted (I think) in a few hours.

    Agree though not going to dump your N requirement for your crop all in the one application.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,423 ✭✭✭Waffletraktor


    pedigree 6 wrote: »
    They are going to gain ground though. Although according to that article it will work over 7-10 days where as if conditions were right or wrong for use, ordinary urea would be converted (I think) in a few hours.

    Agree though not going to dump your N requirement for your crop all in the one application.

    :confused:
    Sure its not Ammonium Nitrate being refered to? (illegal over there, dicks like to use AMFO bombs) That is fairly instant vs urea needing a week to do anything normally. Common practice would be go with An first then urea once everything starts growing but being careful of extended dry spells. Urea is cheapest kg/n, just yet to see any real convincing reason for fancy coatings on it yet. On wide tramlines so would never even try spread it in solid form as like trying to apply polystyrine beads.
    4/5 splits on milling wheat if a head spray is needed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,611 ✭✭✭Mooooo


    Uncle spread the version called GEN, said it didn't travel as far as even standard urea. Dunno what conditions he was spreading it in but ended up with a few strips up and down the field


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,423 ✭✭✭Waffletraktor


    Mooooo wrote: »
    Uncle spread the version called GEN, said it didn't travel as far as even standard urea. Dunno what conditions he was spreading it in but ended up with a few strips up and down the field

    Know someone with issues spreading the ?Koch? protected urea i think its called, had a green paste which gummed up the vanes/agitator area effecting flow and spread pattern.
    Would ye have to get spreaders tested for BBia/Assurance schemes yet?


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,920 ✭✭✭freedominacup


    kevthegaff wrote: »
    Should there always be a cover with urea?

    Makes no odds at all. We blanket spread once a month roughly. Once conditions are right overhead from mid Apr on there's no issue.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,506 ✭✭✭Dawggone


    Science...

    Fall onto your knees in the parcel destined for urea....after a minute if your knees are damp/wet...spread away.


    Likewise a highly scientific way to know if soil temps are good enough to plant beet or maize...drop the pants and sit bare ass on the ground for a minute...

    Works. :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 332 ✭✭merryberry




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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,018 ✭✭✭davidk1394


    I've learned more here in 10 mins for free than 3 years of college. I think the colleges do need to have a good chat with themselves


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭pedigree 6


    merryberry wrote: »
    Pedigree this may be if interest

    www.yara.com/doc/33521_Nitrate_-_Pure_Nutrient.pdf

    Don't work for yara. Diagram on nitrogen transformations is interesting

    Good find.
    Yara share a lot on their website. They even have an energy and protein competition for grass for british and irish farmers if anyone is interested.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Dawggone wrote: »
    Science...

    Fall onto your knees in the parcel destined for urea....after a minute if your knees are damp/wet...spread away.


    Likewise a highly scientific way to know if soil temps are good enough to plant beet or maize...drop the pants and sit bare ass on the ground for a minute...

    Works. :)
    You should really do it in a few places though to get an average, by the end of it you'll have to get the power hose out :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭pedigree 6


    Just for laughs. Coming to a pub near you soon.:P

    http://phys.org/news/2016-08-partner-brewery-urine-fertilizer.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭pedigree 6


    Finding out how legumes are able to extract their own nitrogen from the air.

    http://phys.org/news/2016-01-interact-beneficial-microbes-soil.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,611 ✭✭✭Mooooo


    Mooooo wrote: »
    Uncle spread the version called GEN, said it didn't travel as far as even standard urea. Dunno what conditions he was spreading it in but ended up with a few strips up and down the field

    Know someone with issues spreading the ?Koch? protected urea i think its called, had a green paste which gummed up the vanes/agitator area effecting flow and spread pattern.
    Would ye have to get spreaders tested for BBia/Assurance schemes yet?
    Not yet, no doubt it'll come down the line. At some stage ill get gps and set the spinner to spread wider, so would be no harm to test every season anyway esp as the days of throwing in a few small bags and see how she goes are gone from here anyway. Seeing the contractor go up and down the silage field in 6 runs when it would take me at least 12 showed the savings in time and diesel alone would cover the gps


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭pedigree 6


    The science of composting and the roles of
    Psychrophilic bacteria
    Mesophilic bacteria
    Thermophilic bacteria

    and their need for aerobic conditions and nitrogen.
    Explains why when posters here were wondering how to speed up rotting up of a dungheap and the answer was to add urea/nitrogen.
    As naturally it is taken from the air as ammonia or whatever is used for the compost.

    https://web.extension.illinois.edu/homecompost/science.cfm

    And then other macro organisms like insects, worms, flies, etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,920 ✭✭✭yosemitesam1


    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1465-7287.1992.tb00235.x/full

    Should probably be in the cows saving the planet thread but the gist of it is ruminant methane emissions contribution to climate change are overestimated by as much as 800%


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭pedigree 6


    Right so is anyone going to this?:P

    http://fsr.osu.edu/

    Click on exhibitors and go to events and schedule.
    Maybe the ploughing could learn a thing or twenty from this show.


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