Northern Ireland Westminster General Election

FrancieBrady · 31-10-2019 11:56am

blanch152 wrote: »

Actually no, Francie. If the UK general election sees Labour elected with support from others who actually take their seats in Westminister, there will be a different deal on the table, and it will be a much much better deal for this island, and for the welfare of the people on this island.

If is quite interesting (but not surprising) to watch you tie yourself to the Boris Johnson deal, and trusting in the Tories again. Quite interesting.

I am on the EU side of this blanch dear.

If you wish to talk about a notional Labour deal then we can do that WHEN there is a Labour deal on the table.

FrancieBrady · 31-10-2019 11:57am

blanch152 wrote: »

SNP, Liberal Democrats, UK Labour, are all opposed to this deal.

If the UK is to Brexit, who in Ireland is against them leaving on this deal?

You and the DUP.

Once again you find yourself on the extreme Unionist side.

blanch152 · 31-10-2019 12:06pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If the UK is to Brexit, who in Ireland is against them leaving on this deal?

You and the DUP.

Once again you find yourself on the extreme Unionist side.

Absolute nonsense from yourself again. I have not said that we should reject this deal because any deal is better than no-deal.

I am well able to engage my critical faculties and call out the Emperor wearing no clothes. This is a bad deal for Ireland. It may well be the only deal available and we might have to make the best of if, but it is still a bad deal. I won't celebrate a bad deal.

It is deal that is worse than May's deal. It is also worse than any of the options proposed by the opposition parties in Westminister. It is also worse than the EU's opening position.

Celebrating this deal because the DUP don't like it and because it might bring the possibility of a united Ireland closer is like celebrating that the the other guy died when he shot himself in the head while you managed to survive in a vegetative state.

We need to start planning for lower economic growth because of this deal. We need to be seriously worried about the landbridge to Europe because of this deal. We need to be seriously worried about pharmaceutical companies in Cork staying here as a result of this deal (they can't afford delays in supplying perishable medicine to the EU). Varadkar has an election to win so he won't talk about these things, but this is really not a good outcome, no matter how much you and Boris talk it up.

FrancieBrady · 31-10-2019 12:16pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Absolute nonsense from yourself again. I have not said that we should reject this deal because any deal is better than no-deal.

I am well able to engage my critical faculties and call out the Emperor wearing no clothes. This is a bad deal for Ireland. It may well be the only deal available and we might have to make the best of if, but it is still a bad deal. I won't celebrate a bad deal.

It is deal that is worse than May's deal. It is also worse than any of the options proposed by the opposition parties in Westminister. It is also worse than the EU's opening position.

Celebrating this deal because the DUP don't like it and because it might bring the possibility of a united Ireland closer is like celebrating that the the other guy died when he shot himself in the head while you managed to survive in a vegetative state.

Nobody is celebrating anything...despite your desperate attempts to make it seem so.

We need to start planning for lower economic growth because of this deal. We need to be seriously worried about the landbridge to Europe because of this deal. We need to be seriously worried about pharmaceutical companies in Cork staying here as a result of this deal (they can't afford delays in supplying perishable medicine to the EU). Varadkar has an election to win so he won't talk about these things, but this is really not a good outcome, no matter how much you and Boris talk it up.

We have to do all those things and worry about all those things if the UK Brexit.

There isn't 'another' option here. There is ONE deal on the table which is very similar to the one May achieved and which will be very similar to any deal the UK will get.

From the Ref, a sea border was the only practical solution to the Irish problem in Brexit.
What 3 years has shown is that there is no solution to the UK Brexiting that isn't going to hurt us. The deal hurts us less than others and leaves the decision about a 'hard border' on this island and in our own hands.

You can witter on about nirvana deals that others might negotiate all you wish tbh.

blanch152 · 31-10-2019 12:34pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nobody is celebrating anything...despite your desperate attempts to make it seem so.

We have to do all those things and worry about all those things if the UK Brexit.

There isn't 'another' option here. There is ONE deal on the table which is very similar to the one May achieved and which will be very similar to any deal the UK will get.

From the Ref, a sea border was the only practical solution to the Irish problem in Brexit.
What 3 years has shown is that there is no solution to the UK Brexiting that isn't going to hurt us. The deal hurts us less than others and leaves the decision about a 'hard border' on this island and in our own hands.

You can witter on about nirvana deals that others might negotiate all you wish tbh.

The whole point of this thread is that there really is now another option on the table - elect a different government in the UK.

If Labour come to power, Boris' deal is completely dead, and any deal they propose will be better for Ireland. That means that tactically voting in Northern Ireland demands of all rational people that they elect Remain-supporting MPs who will actually take their seats in Westminister and ensure that Labour are the next government.

It is a lie to state that this deal hurts the people of this island less than others. There are plenty of other possible deals that are far better for the people of this island. Pretending that somehow this deal is better than May's deal is sad.

maccored · 31-10-2019 12:42pm

blanch152 wrote: »

The whole point of this thread is that there really is now another option on the table - elect a different government in the UK.

If Labour come to power, Boris' deal is completely dead, and any deal they propose will be better for Ireland. That means that tactically voting in Northern Ireland demands of all rational people that they elect Remain-supporting MPs who will actually take their seats in Westminister and ensure that Labour are the next government.

It is a lie to state that this deal hurts the people of this island less than others. There are plenty of other possible deals that are far better for the people of this island. Pretending that somehow this deal is better than May's deal is sad.

you should be over there working as part of the brit brexit team

Ihatewhahabies · 31-10-2019 12:47pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Should SF step back from this ekwction. As there MP will not take there seats and use there votes in Westminster should they give the SDLP and the Alliance party a clear run. These votes could be crucial in the next Parliament and could swing many votes on Brexit. These seats could be a counter balance to the DUP.

In the interest of NI and the Irish people in general should the SF stand aside

I totally agree......What are the chances that S.F. sees this as their national (32 counties) duty.

I believe that S.F. and the SDLP should have a coupon/secret agreement election because I am sure that the Brexit party and the Tories will arrange to maximise their votes.

FrancieBrady · 31-10-2019 12:48pm

blanch152 wrote: »

The whole point of this thread is that there really is now another option on the table - elect a different government in the UK.

If Labour come to power, Boris' deal is completely dead, and any deal they propose will be better for Ireland. That means that tactically voting in Northern Ireland demands of all rational people that they elect Remain-supporting MPs who will actually take their seats in Westminister and ensure that Labour are the next government.

It is a lie to state that this deal hurts the people of this island less than others. There are plenty of other possible deals that are far better for the people of this island. Pretending that somehow this deal is better than May's deal is sad.

I have told you why, in my eyes, this is a better deal than May's.

Where have the EU stated that they will negotiate yet another deal with added unicorns etc BTW?
Are you falling for a bit of electioneering here perhaps?

BarryD2 · 31-10-2019 12:51pm

Fionn1952 wrote: »

One thing that makes it difficult is the necessary tactical voting up North - often you're not voting FOR a party, you're voting AGAINST the other one. I voted SF myself many times when I still lived in the North, to prevent particular politicians getting that seat. As my constituency has come down to single digit figures between candidates, it's very difficult to change.

There are huge numbers of people voting SF and DUP who just dislike the other more, it's a Mexican standoff on who moves first.

Sure, it's as much about sticking your finger in the other side's eyes, if they say black you say white and vice versa. Poisonous stuff but if people persist with that, they surely get the society they deserve.

I suppose let them at it, as long as they don't pollute southern politics to any great extent. Who'd want them though while there's all that carry on?

FrancieBrady · 31-10-2019 12:51pm

maccored wrote: »

you should be over there working as part of the brit brexit team

Exactly.

Seems to me if you had been paying attention over the last 3 years that Labour would fracture like the Tories if a 'Deal' was done that didn't meet the desires of it's divided membership.

FrancieBrady · 31-10-2019 12:53pm

BarryD2 wrote: »

Sure, it's as much about sticking your finger in the other side's eyes, if they say black you say white and vice versa. Poisonous stuff but if people persist with that, they surely get the society they deserve.

I suppose let them at it, as long as they don't pollute southern politics to any great extent. Who'd want them though while there's all that carry on?

Brilliant from somebody who lives in a jurisdiction where two parties have swapped power since it's birth.

Fecking Brilliant!

blanch152 · 31-10-2019 1:25pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I have told you why, in my eyes, this is a better deal than May's.

Where have the EU stated that they will negotiate yet another deal with added unicorns etc BTW?
Are you falling for a bit of electioneering here perhaps?

Oh dear, have you got a job working for Boris?

The reasons why this is a better deal than May's:

(1) Them'uns don't like it.
(2) Ireland loses access to the UK market
(3) Them'uns don't like it.
(4) The UK leaves the Customs Union (but the North doesn't) while in May's deal the UK didn't leave the Customs Union because of the backstop
(5) Them'uns don't like it.
(6) The UK leaves the Single Market (but the North doesn't) while in May's deal the UK didn't leave the Single Market because of the backstop
(7) Them'uns don't like it.
(8) Ireland loses the landbridge, with customs checks on way into UK and on way into Europe, a really serious problem for our economy.
(9) Them'uns don't like it.

Yes, the reasons why Boris' deal is a better deal than May's deal really make sense.

BarryD2 wrote: »

Sure, it's as much about sticking your finger in the other side's eyes, if they say black you say white and vice versa. Poisonous stuff but if people persist with that, they surely get the society they deserve.

I suppose let them at it, as long as they don't pollute southern politics to any great extent. Who'd want them though while there's all that carry on?

Hitting the nail on the head there.

It is actually about the other side putting both their eyes out, so we will be better off because we are only putting one of our eyes out. It is quite incredible to see Boris' deal being celebrated on here as a good deal for Ireland.

FrancieBrady · 31-10-2019 1:33pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Oh dear, have you got a job working for Boris?

The reasons why this is a better deal than May's:

(1) Them'uns don't like it.
(2) Ireland loses access to the UK market
(3) Them'uns don't like it.
(4) The UK leaves the Customs Union (but the North doesn't) while in May's deal the UK didn't leave the Customs Union because of the backstop
(5) Them'uns don't like it.
(6) The UK leaves the Single Market (but the North doesn't) while in May's deal the UK didn't leave the Single Market because of the backstop
(7) Them'uns don't like it.
(8) Ireland loses the landbridge, with customs checks on way into UK and on way into Europe, a really serious problem for our economy.
(9) Them'uns don't like it.

Yes, the reasons why Boris' deal is a better deal than May's deal really make sense.

the reason it is better, is because the decision on a 'hard border' is the responsibility of US on the island of Ireland.

Away off on one of your mythical misquotes and misrepresentation of people's POV's.

Hitting the nail on the head there.

It is actually about the other side putting both their eyes out, so we will be better off because we are only putting one of our eyes out. It is quite incredible to see Boris' deal being celebrated on here as a good deal for Ireland.

Again with the myth making about 'celebrations'.

You really are the most dangerous type of debater/poster there is.

Your attempts to drag every conversation into these cul de sacs is pathetic blanch.

blanch152 · 31-10-2019 2:41pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

the reason it is better, is because the decision on a 'hard border' is the responsibility of US on the island of Ireland.

May's deal meant no hard border ever, how can the possibility of a hard border be better.

Fionn1952 · 31-10-2019 3:00pm

BarryD2 wrote: »

Sure, it's as much about sticking your finger in the other side's eyes, if they say black you say white and vice versa. Poisonous stuff but if people persist with that, they surely get the society they deserve.

I suppose let them at it, as long as they don't pollute southern politics to any great extent. Who'd want them though while there's all that carry on?

A bit off the mark, Barry - it's fear of the other side sticking the finger in their eye for the majority.

Nationalists have historic reasons to worry about it, and there's a fear on the Unionist side that should the boot be on the other foot, many would be happy to repeat it in reverse.

There are, of course, a significant minority who conform to your description, but as time passes, these attitudes diminish. The fear factor is slower to go though.

FrancieBrady · 31-10-2019 3:01pm

blanch152 wrote: »

May's deal meant no hard border ever, how can the possibility of a hard border be better.

No, wrong. There would be no hard Border for as long as the UK observed the backstop.

May's deal is gone blanch...they refused to ratify it. It is dead in the water and no longer an option.

There is a Deal on the table currently, which the current leader is now seeking support for with the UK electorate.

That 'deal' leaves the decision (and the responsibility for) on a Hard Border in our hands for as long as the UK observes that deal. .

There will no longer be any hiding behind the UK electorate, a Tory Government if a Hard Border ever happens.
That is a good and transparent thing for this island.Self determination is always preferable imo.

It also means for the people of NI, (all of them) that they are in the EU customs Union from the get go. Much much better than May's deal.

If Labour achieve another deal then we can appraise it when and if it happens.

CrabRevolution · 31-10-2019 4:26pm

I'm no SF supporter, but this entire thread seems to boil down to:

"The electorate have repeatedly voted for an outcome I don't want, so the solution is to deny them that option at the next election"

BonnieSituation · 31-10-2019 4:30pm

CrabRevolution wrote: »

I'm no SF supporter, but this entire thread seems to boil down to:

"The electorate have repeatedly voted for an outcome I don't want, so the solution is to deny them that option at the next election"

And the same people make the same arguments repeatedly.

Thankfully we've had some decent analysis by the user, ThomasFlynn.

liamtech · 31-10-2019 5:12pm

An Aside on to Unionism for a moment

Im thinking the UUP's appearance on The View BBC1 NI tonight will be interesting, with the argument on their refusal to endorse a pact with the DUP

But in a way its a win win for the UUP to keep going as they are - i would argue they are waiting for the NI Polls to come out - before they make a final decision

Consider the attacks on the DUP which they have launched - rightly in my opinion. By laying down a marker, Aiken can wait to see how the DUP/UUP are in Polls as the start to come in for NI Only - If the UUP are ahead, its full steam ahead, with him possibly being able to argue that its the DUP that should step aside

If they are neck and neck he can keep fighting if he wishes

And if despite everything, the DUP are clearly in the lead, he can step aside, having received massive amounts of publicity for UUP during the course of the election

FrancieBrady · 31-10-2019 5:16pm

liamtech wrote: »

An Aside on to Unionism for a moment

Im thinking the UUP's appearance on The View BBC1 NI tonight will be interesting, with the argument on their refusal to endorse a pact with the DUP

But in a way its a win win for the UUP to keep going as they are - i would argue they are waiting for the NI Polls to come out - before they make a final decision

Consider the attacks on the DUP which they have launched - rightly in my opinion. By laying down a marker, Aiken can wait to see how the DUP/UUP are in Polls as the start to come in for NI Only - If the UUP are ahead, its full steam ahead, with him possibly being able to argue that its the DUP that should step aside

If they are neck and neck he can keep fighting if he wishes

And if despite everything, the DUP are clearly in the lead, he can step aside, having received massive amounts of publicity for UUP during the course of the election

The UUP refusing to do a pact would be a bigger 'watershed' moment than the Anglo Irish Agreement.

I can't see it, but who knows.

liamtech · 31-10-2019 5:38pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The UUP refusing to do a pact would be a bigger 'watershed' moment than the Anglo Irish Agreement.

I can't see it, but who knows.

Well i agree but the polls will let them know if it has a chance of success - they can always back out late in the race

They have rightly accused the DUP of being wasters, and argued that they have disgraced themselves - they can keep attacking and when polling in NI begins they will know if its working - if it is, they can keep going and if the DUP are behind, it falls on them to do the honorable thing

SharpshooterTom · 01-11-2019 1:05am

No surprise Steve Aiken has begun to back track on his pledge to field candidates in all 18 constituencies.

Darran Marshall
@DarranMarshall
UUP’s
@SteveAikenUUP
on a North Belfast pact:

“We are listening. One of the things that had changed.. is that yesterday, Sinn Féin have decided to put forward a candidate who is not even going to stand in Westminister.”

*Sinn Féin selected @johnfinucane 40 days ago.

Apparantly the UUP have been receiving threats too.

Don't know what the point of the UUP is. Might as well just merge with the DUP and have one big NO SURRENDER unionist party since most of them don't like gays, abortion or secularism either, and allow the Alliance party take the rational moderate unionist vote.

Mr.Nice Guy · 01-11-2019 2:51am

The thing is most unionists want a pact. The Belfast Telegraph were pushing strongly for it yesterday. If the UUP defied them all and it resulted in SF taking North Belfast, unionists would consider them responsible and desert them next time around.

For all the lamenting about the tribal politics and orange and green etc. when push comes to shove the electorate revert to type and go for the candidate that themmuns don't want.

SharpshooterTom · 01-11-2019 3:21am

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

The thing is most unionists want a pact. The Belfast Telegraph were pushing strongly for it yesterday. If the UUP defied them all and it resulted in SF taking North Belfast, unionists would consider them responsible and desert them next time around.

Nationalists in the north didn't punish the SDLP for costing Sinn Fein F&ST in 2015.

Sure they have no Westminster seats, but they're likely to get one or two this time round. SDLP are in a better position as a party than the UUP are despite not agreeing to any pacts.

Bass Reeves · 01-11-2019 8:37am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No, wrong. There would be no hard Border for as long as the UK observed the backstop.

May's deal is gone blanch...they refused to ratify it. It is dead in the water and no longer an option.

There is a Deal on the table currently, which the current leader is now seeking support for with the UK electorate.

That 'deal' leaves the decision (and the responsibility for) on a Hard Border in our hands for as long as the UK observes that deal. .

There will no longer be any hiding behind the UK electorate, a Tory Government if a Hard Border ever happens.
That is a good and transparent thing for this island.Self determination is always preferable imo.

It also means for the people of NI, (all of them) that they are in the EU customs Union from the get go. Much much better than May's deal.

If Labour achieve another deal then we can appraise it when and if it happens.

There is no guarantee the present deal will be ratified either. It is likely either Brexit party who want no deal and or the DUP who are against this deal will be required to form a Conservative government. Either will seek either changes or abandonment of the deal. So this the present deal is not yet ratified.

There is a chance we may see a broad coalition but that will need all the numbers that it can get. Labour and Liberals will require the SNP as well as other if the numbers are thee.The real irony is if SF stood aside the UUP could then fight all DUP seats on the grounds that there would be no chance of a seat falling to SF.

It is interesting as well taht Irish and Uk stock markets are back to where that were 4-5 weeks ago. They consider the odds of a no deal are the same as when Boris came to power.

FrancieBrady · 01-11-2019 9:45am

Bass Reeves wrote: »

There is no guarantee the present deal will be ratified either. It is likely either Brexit party who want no deal and or the DUP who are against this deal will be required to form a Conservative government. Either will seek either changes or abandonment of the deal. So this the present deal is not yet ratified.

There is a chance we may see a broad coalition but that will need all the numbers that it can get. Labour and Liberals will require the SNP as well as other if the numbers are thee.The real irony is if SF stood aside the UUP could then fight all DUP seats on the grounds that there would be no chance of a seat falling to SF.

It is interesting as well taht Irish and Uk stock markets are back to where that were 4-5 weeks ago. They consider the odds of a no deal are the same as when Boris came to power.

Chris Hazard put the SF position last night - Dublin is where NI nationalists are looking to regarding Brexit.
There have now been 2 deals were the interests of those identifying as Irish and The GFA have been protected. There is no place for an Irish republican in Westminster (and no place for a unionist either for that matter.)

SharpshooterTom · 02-11-2019 2:46pm

https://twitter.com/JamieBrysonCPNI/status/1190562526892875776

L1011 · 02-11-2019 6:34pm

DUP standing aside in Fermanagh South Tyrone in the hope of the UUP unseating Gildernew suggests the quid pro quo is agreed for Belfast North already.

So it's down to demographics - two years shift isn't huge - and whatever dent Alliance make to the Unionist vote then

Mr.Nice Guy · 02-11-2019 9:46pm

https://twitter.com/DUPleader/status/1190654126016933888

Goes to show that for all the difference of opinion on economic grounds, the bickering will always be put to one side for the Union - and for keeping themmuns out. That will never (never, never) change.

SharpshooterTom · 02-11-2019 11:36pm

They'll come a time when the demographics in Fermanagh and South Tyrone will have changed to a point where that a pact unionist candidate can't even win anymore. We might be at that point already.

Northern Ireland Westminster General Election

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