Deer on Welfare

bizidea · 03-11-2019 3:39pm

Vulture 1 wrote: »

Bit of a vent here. But it's starting to bother me and I wonder how wide spread it is in our beautiful nanny state. Where I hunt now we have at least 4 guys I know of shooting deer all day everyday. They are all on welfare no visible means of income best of gear clothing guns jeeps. How are they doing it?
I work moderately hard I ve good gear but I could not justify what I see with these guys. How is this fair on those paying taxes why is it allowed carry on. Everyone is on about poaching but these guys must be killing a lot of deer.

You know what they say only fools and horses work and the more I look at it I dont think there is a truer saying

Vegeta · 04-11-2019 1:45pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

those that are hunting for profit will soon be out of a cash stream.

Or they'll drive across the border and trade em illegally or it will spawn a black market for venison. Suggesting restrictions for all hunters because of the actions of a minority just doesn't ever sit right with me. It's the same logic the government use to put restrictions on firearms owners.

If these guys are acting outside the law as it is, then we have all the legislation we need to catch them. Enforcement becomes the answer, but because that's hard work and needs to be funded we shy away from it at times.

Cass · 09-12-2019 12:27pm

Vegeta wrote: »

Suggesting restrictions for all hunters because of the actions of a minority just doesn't ever sit right with me. It's the same logic the government use to put restrictions on firearms owners.

Amazing that we bitch, moan, and fight to show we are not criminals when the Government decide to punish us for their impotence in dealing with criminal activity, and as you rightly said above, the minute something needs fixing/doing we call for the same restrictions and more Government oversight that we've originally fought against.

The stupidity is strong. :rolleyes:

If these guys are acting outside the law as it is, then we have all the legislation we need to catch them. Enforcement becomes the answer, but because that's hard work and needs to be funded we shy away from it at times.

Exactly.

The other aspect is how big a problem is it, really? Does anyone have any data other than "i seen it", or "he shouldn't have that"?

That attitude stinks of the same bulls**t Varadkar tried on when he claimed welfare benefit fraud was costing the exchequer over €500 million a year when actual figures show it's less than 8% of that and that is still only an estimate.

The same unelected leader than claims welfare frauds are the problem and has a Government full of frauds, thieves and absentee TDs but he;ll distract you with "jangling keys". :mad:

Grizzly 45 · 09-12-2019 8:06pm

Vegeta wrote: »

Or they'll drive across the border and trade em illegally or it will spawn a black market for venison. Suggesting restrictions for all hunters because of the actions of a minority just doesn't ever sit right with me. It's the same logic the government use to put restrictions on firearms owners.

There already is a black market for venison,and its more than likely where lads are unloading the gut shot and badly gutted animals.On the poor in the urban housing estates. There is an exact same thread going on on FB undr Munster deer stalkers...And everyone both here and there are saying the same thing. Tags,increase fines,more NPWS rangers,stiffer sentences, pay possibly X amount of money for an annual deer liscense soley for increasing NPWS staff and anti poaching patrols.A VERY BAD idea IMO,you start saying you want to pay for something,the Govt will be only too happy to take your hard earned money,and give you a shoddy service in return,and charge you more every year.
Like a proper deer census,we need as you rightly pointed out Cass,facts and figures on how much a problem of this is nationwide.There might be hotspots of poaching in some places,and none in others,but until we have an idea of facts&figures,we cant formulate any sort of plan.

Cass · 09-12-2019 10:26pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

.........pay possibly X amount of money for an annual deer liscense soley for increasing NPWS staff and anti poaching patrols.A VERY BAD idea IMO,you start saying you want to pay for something,the Govt will be only too happy to take your hard earned money,...........

If only there were, say, €6,000,000 per year coming in from some revenue source that could go towards financing such departments.

Think people.

Where would we get €18,000,000 every 3 YEARS???????????????????

garv123 · 10-12-2019 10:08am

The idea of paying for a licence mentioned on facebook is an awful one imo.

Start at €100, how much will it be in 4/5 years time? And people really think the government would spent the money on anti poaching..

You've the sunny day shooters saying they'd happily pay it and that they have their freezers full for the year after shooting 2 deer.
Most lads would be kicked out of a place if they told the farmer they wouldn't shoot any more deer for them.

Funny that lads winge and b!itch about the amount of deer certain people shoot, but yet want to be part of organisations where the top tables shoot into the thousands yearly between them, and sell them all to the game dealers..

Some lads are just in cuckoo land.

Cass · 10-12-2019 4:17pm

There is a "trick" in politics (in all its forms). Accuse others of your own actions to distract them from what you are doing.

dto001 · 11-12-2019 1:49am

The IFA are going to wade in to this soon.

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/news/rural-crime/farmers-lives-endangered-by-illegal-deer-poaching-38767297.html

Grizzly 45 · 11-12-2019 1:46pm

"If you see a 308 rifle fired at 100 metres, it'll open up a hole in the ground the same as a mini digger. It's scary stuff."

Well,that ammo would save a fierce load of work for me laying some new pipes around here.:rolleyes:
This kind of fukwitted hyperboyle and ****witted article and exegerrations,[proably by an anti farmer],as if your cow get hit by one of these .308 depleted uranium "Nukk em" rounds,you will notice it alright,as it will be very dead in the field with half of it missing due to it being vapourised from the round impacting it.

You'd wonder what is the actual thought processes going on entirely in the whole Irish establishments dealing with deer hunting these days.

Coilte "one deer is too many in a Coilte let!"[remember that famous statement from officaldom?]

Farmers
" Shoot as many of dem feckers off me land.There atein me silage and bucking the cows.an wrecking the fences.Poachers?Shure they are doin me a favour...[Later ] Jaysus me tractor,quad,and everythin else was nicked,it was dem poaching lads spying out me farm.The Gaurds must DOSOMTHING to stop this happenin".
IFA
"We have serious reports from our members of being robbed by poaching gangs,and their cows have been shot by poaching gangs equipped with special forces weaponary,that can blast holes 2miles across their farms..This is of serious concern to our members,annd we know all about guns too,as we have the largest group of gun owners in Ireland...So there.

NPWS
"well we really dont know jack,because we have no idea on how large/small the national deer herd actually is,and we haven't the money really to [a] investigate crimes like this properly Pay our college trained rangers a pittance for their degree qualifications,or for Govt and unionised mandated anti social hours payments.If people could poach Mon/Fri9to 5[excluding lunch and tea break time] We could be of assistance.Meantime we suggest further berauracratic paperwork to sort this out?

Irish deer management forum
"Well after our last meeting last year,we formed a sub comittee of a sub comittee,to discuss further training at 1000 euros a pop of deer stalkers and to strongly urge all parties to adapt our new app and tagging system downloadable,with many glitches onto their laptops,pda or phone to mark where deer are shot.At a price of 500 euros per download it is indeed value for money,as are the 300 euro DNA kits and training courses we mandate all stalkers do to collect DNA samples for our research."

Gardai
"Fuk this!!MORE work,caused by these feckin chancers...any chance of some overtime Sarge?"

Politicos
"Them deer are a threat to motorists!I tell you , there have been a fierce amount of accidents in my constituency,where only yesterday a herd of deers jumped out on the road to Mountfeckim and caused carnage they did to Mrs Looneys car ! The Govt MUST do somthing to stop this scourge.They should send in helicopter gunships and strafe the herds in our forests!

Poachers
"Dont give a flying FK quite frankly! Shure they want deer off their land ,I'm gettin 1.75 per kilo for necked ones...Life is grand!"

Deer stalking associations
"Can we screw money out of our members selling them courses that we got the Govt to make OURS the only acceptable one,after we started losing revenue in our original mandate,and are now trying some mission creep?"

Irish deer stalkers
"Lets offer to pay 100 euros for our FREE liscenses and FREE shooting to a goverment who shouldnt be in charge of a childs piggy bank,not to mind a nations finances,and yeah lets buy tags as well,because its so successful in the USA,but NO other EU country uses them ,in the vain hope that they wil dedicate our monies into combating poaching!:(
Oh and lets tax the fuk out of any shooters coming here to avail of our FREE shooting,and them leaving money in the local economy...Feccking foreginers!"

Have I missed anyone?No wonder we are goosed,and until everyone starts getting their collective act together into one act,so will it ever remain.

I feel better now getting that off my chest!:D

tudderone · 11-12-2019 3:09pm

There was a program on the english stations about the lunacy of train lines, motorways etc grinding to a halt over copper cable thieves. The tea-leaves were going into scrapyards with the stolen copper cabling and were getting paid cash into the hand no questions asked.

Then the laws were changed, every scrappy has a monitored camera, and they are monitored by the police, they are no longer allowed to pay cash, but only transfer money into a uk bank account, and the reg numbers of the cars and vans are taken. In addition, if the scrapyard owner is caught with stolen stuff, he is jailed, one lad getting six months when cable was found that had been swiped off a railway signalling system.

So this poaching could be stamped out if the ptb wanted to do it here.

kunekunesika · 11-12-2019 8:50pm

Grizzly,
You forgot the deer lovers, who want all the surplus deer collected and moved to the phoenix Park. Once there, they can be put on family planning courses and road safety courses!

Other than that, I don't think you missed anyone.

tudderone · 11-12-2019 10:13pm

kunekunesika wrote: »

Grizzly,
You forgot the deer lovers, who want all the surplus deer collected and moved to the phoenix Park. Once there, they can be put on family planning courses and road safety courses!

Other than that, I don't think you missed anyone.

The unemployed could be given jobs putting condoms on the the stags ! Win-win !

ayagerard · 12-12-2019 12:03am

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

"If you see a 308 rifle fired at 100 metres, it'll open up a hole in the ground the same as a mini digger. It's scary stuff."

Well,that ammo would save a fierce load of work for me laying some new pipes around here.:rolleyes:
This kind of fukwitted hyperboyle and ****witted article and exegerrations,[proably by an anti farmer],as if your cow get hit by one of these .308 depleted uranium "Nukk em" rounds,you will notice it alright,as it will be very dead in the field with half of it missing due to it being vapourised from the round impacting it.

You'd wonder what is the actual thought processes going on entirely in the whole Irish establishments dealing with deer hunting these days.

Coilte "one deer is too many in a Coilte let!"[remember that famous statement from officaldom?]

Farmers
" Shoot as many of dem feckers off me land.There atein me silage and bucking the cows.an wrecking the fences.Poachers?Shure they are doin me a favour...[Later ] Jaysus me tractor,quad,and everythin else was nicked,it was dem poaching lads spying out me farm.The Gaurds must DOSOMTHING to stop this happenin".
IFA
"We have serious reports from our members of being robbed by poaching gangs,and their cows have been shot by poaching gangs equipped with special forces weaponary,that can blast holes 2miles across their farms..This is of serious concern to our members,annd we know all about guns too,as we have the largest group of gun owners in Ireland...So there.

NPWS
"well we really dont know jack,because we have no idea on how large/small the national deer herd actually is,and we haven't the money really to [a] investigate crimes like this properly Pay our college trained rangers a pittance for their degree qualifications,or for Govt and unionised mandated anti social hours payments.If people could poach Mon/Fri9to 5[excluding lunch and tea break time] We could be of assistance.Meantime we suggest further berauracratic paperwork to sort this out?

Irish deer management forum
"Well after our last meeting last year,we formed a sub comittee of a sub comittee,to discuss further training at 1000 euros a pop of deer stalkers and to strongly urge all parties to adapt our new app and tagging system downloadable,with many glitches onto their laptops,pda or phone to mark where deer are shot.At a price of 500 euros per download it is indeed value for money,as are the 300 euro DNA kits and training courses we mandate all stalkers do to collect DNA samples for our research."

Gardai
"Fuk this!!MORE work,caused by these feckin chancers...any chance of some overtime Sarge?"

Politicos
"Them deer are a threat to motorists!I tell you , there have been a fierce amount of accidents in my constituency,where only yesterday a herd of deers jumped out on the road to Mountfeckim and caused carnage they did to Mrs Looneys car ! The Govt MUST do somthing to stop this scourge.They should send in helicopter gunships and strafe the herds in our forests!

Poachers
"Dont give a flying FK quite frankly! Shure they want deer off their land ,I'm gettin 1.75 per kilo for necked ones...Life is grand!"

Deer stalking associations
"Can we screw money out of our members selling them courses that we got the Govt to make OURS the only acceptable one,after we started losing revenue in our original mandate,and are now trying some mission creep?"

Irish deer stalkers
"Lets offer to pay 100 euros for our FREE liscenses and FREE shooting to a goverment who shouldnt be in charge of a childs piggy bank,not to mind a nations finances,and yeah lets buy tags as well,because its so successful in the USA,but NO other EU country uses them ,in the vain hope that they wil dedicate our monies into combating poaching!:(
Oh and lets tax the fuk out of any shooters coming here to avail of our FREE shooting,and them leaving money in the local economy...Feccking foreginers!"

Have I missed anyone?No wonder we are goosed,and until everyone starts getting their collective act together into one act,so will it ever remain.

I feel better now getting that off my chest!:D

well you wont sleep at all well to night grizzly, your head will be too light on the pillow, with all that weight of your shoulders! the balance will be all wrong
but i agree with every thing you said above and every party above are only looking at this from one of two perspectives
1 how can we make money out of this ie what can we sell
2 haven't we enough of a work load without this aren't we doing to much as it is. no over time under funded under staffed haven't time now corrie is on in 10 minutes ,and who will actually notice ,
if you could find some link in the chain of command that was accountable from the ground all the way to the ( A) minister you would have found something very precious if not nonexistent there is no accountability for any thing in this country if you are employed by the state in a political or managerial capacity all that happens if you fu##up, ie you get caught ??? you get moved to a different department or get promoted no one ever hears any more about it wance the dust settles money ?????????? makes it all what it is

Grizzly 45 · 12-12-2019 12:11am

tudderone wrote: »

There was a program on the english stations about the lunacy of train lines, motorways etc grinding to a halt over copper cable thieves. The tea-leaves were going into scrapyards with the stolen copper cabling and were getting paid cash into the hand no questions asked.

Then the laws were changed, every scrappy has a monitored camera, and they are monitored by the police, they are no longer allowed to pay cash, but only transfer money into a uk bank account, and the reg numbers of the cars and vans are taken. In addition, if the scrapyard owner is caught with stolen stuff, he is jailed, one lad getting six months when cable was found that had been swiped off a railway signalling system.

So this poaching could be stamped out if the ptb wanted to do it here.

This is the one major problem here the "Aisey money" aspect to this. Game dealers buy in no questions asked,so long as they can fill the bookwork,easily done by our "legal poachers" these days.How,or where they are selling the carcasses to is another massive question,as New Zealand can and has flooded the European market with venison,which is now a by product from the NZ deer farming,as they want the "Velvet" off the stags antlers for Chinese folk medicine.It has got to be lucrative,if dodgy game dealers can put aside 20 grand in cash to pay any maximum dist court fine,as a "busisness expense" and then proably try and claim it off revenue as well.

The problems are;
1]Too much money on the poaching side.They are making top money here at 1.75+/- a kilo too. [What is a GD selling this out at too is a good question]

2] Too little money on the NPWS/AGS/ligit shooters side,as well as manpower to deal with it and no authorithy for the shooter on the ground to deal with it either.

3] Farmers/Coilte see them as vermin and one deer is one too many.

4]Hunters and their orgs,have no real cohesive ,united plan on how to deal with this problem,and doesnt involve stitching their members up for money for courses or tags or giving the Govt more free money for nothing. That's what Global warming emergency kids are for.:p

ayagerard · 12-12-2019 12:22am

tudderone wrote: »

The unemployed could be given jobs putting condoms on the the stags ! Win-win !

at least then they would be doing something to earn their crust, realisticky their would be benefits from some form of a policy as they could form a picture regarding the numbers of national herd ,after some training modules they could differentiate between sika and fallow and the reds would be easy, extra man -woman power to help rangers yes i can see a lot of benefits here allwrite would also shorten the ques at the post office especially during warmer weather

ayagerard · 12-12-2019 12:52am

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

This is the one major problem here the "Aisey money" aspect to this. Game dealers buy in no questions asked,

The problems are;
1]Too much money on the poaching side.They are making top money here at 1.75+/- a kilo too. [What is a GD selling this out at too is a good question]
.:p

https://www.coopershill.com/index.html

look at the prices in the link above click on menu then venison
now if i am supplying 2-5 restaurants with a supply of week old aged fresh venison , to their demand for cash no game dealer middle man. why would i be
looking to register for vat or declare an income, i would be available to attend the dole office at there request at any time , fresh is 52 weeks a year
you can trace beef back to the farm??????theoretically what traceability is on wild venison. again farmed mabe ??

cookimonster · 12-12-2019 10:04am

I am under no illusion that there may be a few restaurants dealing in illegal venison. But this is very rare and isolated incidents.
As someone who works in the trade, I can categorically tell you that the inspection process and regime that is in place makes the selling of unregistered meat extremely risky for any food buisness here. The sale of venison on menus all year is not done as its seen as a seasonal commodity.

As I have said before, the main market for poached venison is out the back door to the ordinary punter.

The main flaw in the whole scheme of things is the collection point system. It is here were there is potential for wrong doing. Unregistered hunters dropping off meat to 'so called' collection points were the meat is registered by a secound party and sent off to the game dealer with appropriate documentation.

Rows Grower · 29-01-2020 10:18am

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/rural-life/farmers-in-west-tipperary-fear-potential-livestock-losses-from-stray-bullets-as-deer-poachers-leave-carnage-in-their-wake-38899692.html

ZiabR · 29-01-2020 12:28pm

Shocking stuff really. What if anything can be done?

solarwinds · 29-01-2020 1:36pm

ZiabR wrote: »

Shocking stuff really. What if anything can be done?

It would not surprise me in the least if some unnamed official in some unknown dept. is at this very minute drafting legislation to tackle this problem.
It will probably be in the guise of banning all forms of legal hunting activity to combat this criminality and save the deer.
Nothing surprises me anymore, if you had from now to eternity you could not even dream up some the hair brained incompetent solutions these guys come up with and get away with.

270WIN · 29-01-2020 1:53pm

solarwinds wrote: »

It would not surprise me in the least if some unnamed official in some unknown dept. is at this very minute drafting legislation to tackle this problem.
It will probably be in the guise of banning all forms of legal hunting activity to combat this criminality and save the deer.
Nothing surprises me anymore, if you had from now to eternity you could not even dream up some the hair brained incompetent solutions these guys come up with and get away with.

I would think the exact opposite. The Govt depts are being lambasted for not doing something to control deer numbers. Coillte, IFA, Forestery companies are hounding the state to have a deer cull on a large scale. Deep down id say the Govt is delighted someone is knocking off the deer. If Coillte had their way deer would be shot all year round. Even that article had one part about the poaching of deer and another part of it was the ICMSA complaining about too much deer. The quality of reporting is shocking too.

solarwinds · 29-01-2020 2:06pm

The smart ass point I was trying to make, badly as usual, is that the governments response to any problem is usually daft at best.
All you have to do is look at their solution to drug gangs murdering each other on the streets with illegal firearms. In effect ban them from law abiding citizens. The correct solution in my opinion would have been better resources to AGS and Customs and harsher penalities for those caught. All we ever end up with here is knee jerk populist reactions.

270WIN · 29-01-2020 2:47pm

solarwinds wrote: »

The smart ass point I was trying to make, badly as usual, is that the governments response to any problem is usually daft at best.
All you have to do is look at their solution to drug gangs murdering each other on the streets with illegal firearms. In effect ban them from law abiding citizens. The correct solution in my opinion would have been better resources to AGS and Customs and harsher penalities for those caught. All we ever end up with here is knee jerk populist reactions.

You're right solarwinds. All deer hunting people (who have an interest in having a properly controlled deer population) would want to be on their guard because anything could happen in response to these incidents...especially when we will probably have the Greens in govt shortly. Papers never refuse ink and a picture of a lad with a rifle at dusk and a huge headline about lads firing bullets at night always catches the headlines. I've met a few lads today saying to me what are ye at "lamping deer at night..there must be great money in that game"

cookimonster · 29-01-2020 5:37pm

Re The Greens and Deer Hunting:

The tide could flow in the opposite direction, remember there are a cohort of people who are tree racists!!!! .... when did you ever think environmentalist and the green meanies would turn on trees, let alone wild animals.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jan/14/conservationists-call-for-enforceable-deer-cull-in-scotland

https://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/natureuk/2011/11/liz-bonnin-the-science-behind.shtml

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/deer-in-crosshairs-of-conservationists-bxrvc7scm

https://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordpress.com/2019/12/23/carbon-carnage-the-real-cost-of-grouse-shooting-by-lisbet-rausing/
The above link is some back ground on 'work' being done by an environmentalist to eradicate deer from one of the biggest priately owned holding in Scotland if not UK.

stevep1018 · 29-01-2020 10:16pm

I've counted those legs myself.number stated is questionable.its near me.anybody that wants to see the area is welcome to have a look.i doubt any reporter has been out for a look for themselves.too busy writing.

Stonehall9 · 29-01-2020 11:49pm

stevep1018 wrote: »

I've counted those legs myself.number stated is questionable.its near me.anybody that wants to see the area is welcome to have a look.i doubt any reporter has been out for a look for themselves.too busy writing.

What area of Tipp is it?? I’ve a permission on the mitchelstown side of Cahir but I’ve only set foot on it once, it’s suppose to be like the Wild West down there in the season, a couple of lads told me it’s completely nuts the poaching going on there. At the risk of getting shot or beat up they told me stay well out of it!!

stevep1018 · 30-01-2020 11:09am

Stonehall9 wrote: »

What area of Tipp is it?? I’ve a permission on the mitchelstown side of Cahir but I’ve only set foot on it once, it’s suppose to be like the Wild West down there in the season, a couple of lads told me it’s completely nuts the poaching going on there. At the risk of getting shot or beat up they told me stay well out of it!!

It's actually in county limerick. According to the map.Cappamore to rearcross area.

Gorgeousgeorge · 30-01-2020 2:38pm

Stonehall9 wrote: »

What area of Tipp is it?? I’ve a permission on the mitchelstown side of Cahir but I’ve only set foot on it once, it’s suppose to be like the Wild West down there in the season, a couple of lads told me it’s completely nuts the poaching going on there. At the risk of getting shot or beat up they told me stay well out of it!!

risk of getting shot or beat up :eek:??? ah here thats mad carry on over a few deer.

Stonehall9 · 31-01-2020 8:47pm

Gorgeousgeorge wrote: »

risk of getting shot or beat up :eek:??? ah here thats mad carry on over a few deer.

Ya apparently these boys have the place sewn up and they don’t give a fu*k about anyone. I’ve permission on 400 acres down there and I’ve only stepped on it once, it’s heaving with deer and the Gardai don’t really bother their arse down that side in relation to the carry on.

BryanL · 31-01-2020 11:02pm

Stonehall9 wrote: »

Ya apparently these boys have the place sewn up and they don’t give a fu*k about anyone. I’ve permission on 400 acres down there and I’ve only stepped on it once, it’s heaving with deer and the Gardai don’t really bother their arse down that side in relation to the carry on.

Why not control the deer on it yourself and get numbers to a level that would discourage poachers?
Bryan

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Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County