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I've Joined a Cult

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Comments

  • #332
    thebouldwhacker
    Registered Users Posts: 3,565 ✭✭✭thebouldwhacker


    I could quote my first post to answer you if you wish because i feel it was quite comprehensive and clear. But for those down the back yes I posted that I see this thread has solid facts being put forward with unproven claims riding on their coat tales.

    To be honest I was just putting in my reaction to what I read, I did not intend to say anyone was wrong in their beliefs so long as that is all that is being claimed, beliefs wrapped around solid evidence based nutritional knowledge.
    I feel though that my posting may have been quite direct and for this I do apologise, no disrespect was intended.
    I do not mean to claim to be any more knowledgeable about such topics or to claim that my approach is better than others. Its just I do not see correcting one untruth (you have to fuel excercise with carb based food for example) with another (cut out as much carbs as is possible) as a positive approach to designing a healthy daily diet.

    I agree with you about cake, but don't forget the psychological benefits one gets from the joy of eating cake from time to time, smiling always burns calories and that has to be good for you! Balance and moderation...


  • #333
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    thebouldwhacker wrote: »
    Maybe its just me but sorry but I fail to see anything new here. One shouldn't get involved in a fad diet when all they need to do is stop eating edible material instead of food. The term BSO (bike shaped object, something that looks like a bike but isn't really) is used a lot in this forum, well we live in a world full of FSO (food shaped objects) these should be treated with the same disdain, all I'm saying is that you don't need to joint a cult to do this.

    You are correct, there is nothing new here. I didn't discover anything new. I just linked to respectable scientists/doctors/journalists who disagree with the food pyramid as it stands. The thread is titled as it is because I have to explain to every person that I meet that I am not exercising myself into the ground or starving myself slim, when I explain how I eat I then have to explain to usually overweight people that I'm not going to die of a heart attack. It was intended as a joke which you seem to have missed.

    I take issue with this all being common sense. People of my parents generation are being scare-mongered out of eating healthy food because of fat content and this red herring of cholesterol. When I started eating a lot of nuts as a snack food everyone would comment that they are fattening and unhealthy because of the saturated fat and calorie content. Nuts unhealthy? I could not give them away in an office full of intelligent people. But you lay out sugary snacks and people are driven to consume it. Overriding the fact they know it is unhealthy.

    I am also from a rural area and I know plenty of people who grew up eating healthy food as you describe. I have heard plenty stories grandad's who lived to 93 and soaked the lard off the pan and ate liver etc.. But their children have been scared into eating low fat rubbish and 'healthy' vegetable oil spreads. Low fat spreads are partially hydrogenated in a factory to make them spreadable. I have actually programmed a hydrogenating machine and if humans evolved to eat vegetable oil that has to be bombarded under pressure with hydrogen atoms and coloured to look like butter in order to be healthy well I'll be a monkey's uncle. But you can't get people to even eat butter! Because it's going to kill us all.


  • #334
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    thebouldwhacker wrote: »
    To be honest I was just putting in my reaction to what I read, I did not intend to say anyone was wrong in their beliefs so long as that is all that is being claimed, beliefs wrapped around solid evidence based nutritional knowledge.

    If you read the work of Kendrick, Ravnskoff, Taubes, Yudkin etc.. they go through the scientific research with a toothcomb. That's why I linked to them. They repeatedly show how nutritional studies are tainted to suit the needs of the sponsors of those studies. And how the media blindly accept the abstracts. That's why I repeatedly say in this thread to do your own research. I am always slow to link to the likes of Mark Sissons, in fact I don't think I have in this thread. I think it's Ror_77 that links to him. As he has an empire to protect and he looks like a snake oil salesman, but I do agree with most of what he says.

    Most of the people I have linked to are regular doctors, scientists and sports scientists who have noticed that they themselves, their patients and those around them are getting fatter and sicker following the prevailing advice on nutrition and exercise. Yes they have books to sell (how else would they get their info out) but they are not amassing fortunes from them.


  • #335
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    thebouldwhacker wrote: »
    the diet is in no way designed for people who cycle,
    Two elite Irish cyclists eat this way. yes a whole two! I have never felt fitter myself but I am not elite :(
    thebouldwhacker wrote: »
    its not a training log.
    Report it so.
    thebouldwhacker wrote: »
    I feel it belongs in the Health & Fittness forum where threads such as this are a dime a dozen
    If you look down these training logs. You will see that a lot of the threads are people trying to lose weight and battering themselves with mileage. I believe most of them may be in vain and possibly unhealthy. [boast]My thread has more views than any of them[/boast]. Someone is interested, if not it would have died a death. I genuinely thought I'd post one link a day for a month, people would laugh (some have) and that would be that. It would save me some hassle if it was closed.
    thebouldwhacker wrote: »
    and are competing for space with other exclusionary diets.
    It started as an exclusionary diet for me but with a bit of input from here and some re-thinks it's not entirely exclusionary (except maybe for wheat*). I wanted some cycling based input. That's why I put it here.


    *the base of the food pyramid, the healthy whole grain!


  • #336
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    thebouldwhacker wrote: »
    Many of sites linked (like the underground wellness site) seem to be replicating well known tips to a healthy lifestyle with cool graphics and a shop... to buy the expensive books...

    I take your point about undergroundwellness, though I'm pretty sure I qualified that post by saying folk should be wary of some of the people he has on. And that Croxton himself says some dumb things. but he does give away alot of free info, it may be wrong info, but most of it's free.
    You can read the post again if you like.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85540470&postcount=184

    As for it all being flashy websites. Most of the links I have provided have been sober and dull. I'm surprised anyone looked at them. I suspect alot of readers of this thread didn't and will just conclude that scrambled egg and rashers is what I think a person should eat.


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  • #337
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    Just found out Nassim Taleb is cult member.


  • #338
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    thebouldwhacker wrote: »
    . Its just I do not see correcting one untruth (you have to fuel excercise with carb based food for example) with another (cut out as much carbs as is possible) as a positive approach to designing a healthy daily diet.
    The latest post I made on that subject was to post a discussion between Noakes and Bruckner. Where they both concluded that everyone has their own sweet spot in relation to carb intake.

    I had stated clearly in this thread that some people (smacl for example) thrive on grains, some (ror-74 for example) thrive on a high carbohydrate intake and that some (me) thrive on lchf intake. And concluded that everyone is different.

    I have said several times that this is not a one size fits all. You are deliberately misconstruing what I have posted.

    True, my position on the quantity and source of carbs that I can handle has changed somewhat but I am allowed to evolve my position as I tinker around the edges.


  • #339
    thebouldwhacker
    Registered Users Posts: 3,565 ✭✭✭thebouldwhacker


    Sorry Pete, I didn't mean to come across like that about your individual diet.
    However the thread as a whole is made up of many different posters who are making some fairly difinitive statements which seem to be unqualified or using questionable references to back up the statements.
    Again each to their own but for someone with no knowledge of nutrition reading this thread there are some strong statements being made which could easily be picked up as proven fact rather than theory. Thus replacing one false 'theory fact' with another.


  • #340
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    thebouldwhacker wrote: »
    However the thread as a whole is made up of many different posters who are making some fairly difinitive statements which seem to be unqualified or using questionable references to back up the statements.

    Understood.

    That's why I shy away from detailing what I eat or making definitive statements on anything. The danger in any diet change is that people want the easy way out. This isn't an easy way out in the sense that it takes some thought, a lot of cooking and costs a bloody fortune but ultimately the rewards (for me) are worth the effort. It also took a lot of reading for me to convince myself I am not going to give myself a heart attack.

    I also stated that I don't have any answers for weightloss, I was not overweight, I went from very skinny in my early 20s to 2.5/3 stone overweight for a few years by my mid 20s. I fixed that with portion control. But to be honest I didn't feel any healthier being slim than when I was overweight. In the last number of years I started to see contradictory results with regards to food intake, energy levels, weight maintenance, exercise output and general health. In fact I was starting to feel much worse and was putting this down to ageing (though I'm only 34). So I have tried to get to the bottom of it and this thread is me thinking out loud.

    Once again to anyone reading, this is not scrambled eggs and rashers Atkins. Though I bet Atkins is more sophisticated than that.


  • #341
    AstraMonti
    Registered Users Posts: 5,718 ✭✭✭AstraMonti


    thebouldwhacker wrote: »
    Again each to their own but for someone with no knowledge of nutrition reading this thread there are some strong statements being made which could easily be picked up as proven fact rather than theory. Thus replacing one false 'theory fact' with another.

    Just to make the thread more interesting, why don't you take each of these claims and counter them with studies and facts? It's always a pleasure to read more. I have been so fascinated (thanks to Pete) by this that I 've been reading non stop for the last 3 weeks about nutrition and more specifically about the high fat-low carb. I am not yet sure if it works for me, I am only on my 3rd week of it and taking it as a clinical trial. My weight is the same, maybe a kilo down but I 've been doing no exercise as I am on holidays, just eating (a lot). At the end of September I hope to have put some good miles on the bike and quite some time on the gym so I ll revert back with how I feel. I also plan to have blood tests done at the end of that month which will be compared to my last years results of "normal eating".

    For lunch I am going to have casserole beef with a broccoli/cauliflower/cream cheese/butter mash.

    Moving on, I am still the crazy guy who is going to die from cholesterol as fat will block my arteries.

    Edit: Just finished reading this article: http://chriskresser.com/the-nitrate-and-nitrite-myth-another-reason-not-to-fear-bacon


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  • #342
    duffyshuffle
    Registered Users Posts: 767 ✭✭✭duffyshuffle


    petethedrummer wrote: »
    Yeah, I've started going once a week to the gym. I'm off the bike till I resolve my hamstring issue.

    Cool, is weight training normally a part of your training? Or just for rehab/something to do while off the bike? Normally when people join the cult cut processed foods, lots of the advocates where they would get thier advice/information also promote heavy lifting, building strength and all its benefits for health along side intervals etc... and a huge reduction in aerobic hours to justify eating cake :) I saw you were alluding to large reductions in volume favouring an intensity based approach earlier in the thread so wondered was weight training also involved.

    Really interested in your blog, think it should remain here, its not a health and fitness issue, you only have to look at the everyday cyclist to see that there is a large over reliance on processed carbs/sugar.

    I got in to LCHF from doing gym work a few years ago, not strict, but would be lower carb, almost no bread/grain, higher fat, unprocessed food approach. Found the change in composition/mood/energy huge and would never go back to eating sandwiches for lunch every day etc... Ever.

    P.s. it hasn't quite turned in to a photo/recipe food porn blog yet, but may I recommend cauliflower fried rice. Blend cauliflower. Fry it in coconut oil, fry an egg separate, then chop and add to cauliflower with some scallions. 10 minutes or so, its delicious! Great with a coconut red curry or anything saucey


  • #343
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    duffyshuffle wrote: »
    Cool, is weight training normally a part of your training?

    It's not normally apart of my training* but I am slightly concerned that I am only training certain muscle groups through cycling and perhaps creating imbalances. I have no intention of becoming a muscle bound freak (that's genetically driven anyway). I just want to maintain a functional fitness.

    I like Doug McGuff's take on weight training as his protocol is aimed at minimising the chances of injury. This hammer injury is annoying me no end and I want to take steps to prevent this kind of thing in future by being generally more robust. Had physio today. Hopefully it will be resolved in the next few weeks.


    *My training over the last number of years has been blighted by asthma but I seem to have that under control.


  • #344
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    duffyshuffle wrote: »
    I got in to LCHF from doing gym work a few years ago, not strict, but would be lower carb, almost no bread/grain, higher fat, unprocessed food approach. Found the change in composition/mood/energy huge and would never go back to eating sandwiches for lunch every day etc... Ever.

    After trial and error I think grains (particularly wheat) were the big problem in my diet. Though I do think I have problems with sugar and starches. If you like I think grain was giving me chronic problems which are hard to pin down while with sugar and starches the effect is very acute and easily tracked. It's hard to be exact though.

    Or to put it another way Beer is out for now, red wine and cider are in.


  • #345
    thebouldwhacker
    Registered Users Posts: 3,565 ✭✭✭thebouldwhacker


    http://www.nomeatathlete.com/vegetarian-protein/


    http://www.nomeatathlete.com/plant-based-endurance/


  • #346
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    thebouldwhacker wrote: »
    http://www.nomeatathlete.com/vegetarian-protein/


    http://www.nomeatathlete.com/plant-based-endurance/

    you have a go at me and this is what you post? jesus christ.


  • #347
    AstraMonti
    Registered Users Posts: 5,718 ✭✭✭AstraMonti


    I 've been trying all evening to read Biochemistry for sport and exercise metabolism by Don MacLaren and James Morton. I am struggling to be honest, it's a few levels above my "pay grade".

    I ll stay on this for a bit (nothing we haven't already discussed).

    zTiCUhq.jpg

    Fats contribute a greater percentage (and amount) of energy at 25% VO2max (i.e. walking pace), around 50% of the energy at 65% VO2max (i.e. steady state pace), and around 25% of the energy at 85% VO2max (i.e. an intense aerobic bout with some significant anaerobic energy involved). So if we assume we 're racing at 75% VO2max it kinda makes sense that we can't do a 2h race without a carb source, or maybe there are more answers down the book and I haven't gotten there yet.

    I swear, when I was in high school doing biology and chemistry, I said I am never going to touch this stuff again. I now wish I had paid more attention, these stuff is brilliant, even if I have to revisit each page 10 times to get it.


  • #348
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,705 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Pete, one question; What are your goals in pursuing this diet? I see references to feeling better / healthier, racing, and losing weight, but is there a single primary objective?
    petethedrummer wrote: »
    Or to put it another way Beer is out for now, red wine and cider are in.

    Beer is the bottom line for me in terms of weight loss, I know damn well whatever else I do, if I cut the beer I'll lose weight. If I don't, it will be a struggle. I planted a bunch of apple and pear trees some years back, and have been making my own cider for the last couple of years. Doesn't help lose any weight, but tastes so much better than anything you could buy. When fresh fruit is scarce, alcoholic ginger beer is another favourite, and can be fermented to be very dry if avoiding sugar. I suspect the level of additives in any of the cheaper wines, beers and ciders is right up there with chicken mcnuggets.

    In terms of health, I do a kettle bell session every now and again, to maintain muscle mass. From what I've read this is important as you get older, typically from 35 onwards, 47 myself. Having alternative forms of exercise readily available also increases the chances of doing something rather than nothing.

    Enjoying the log, keep it up!


  • #349
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,705 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    AstraMonti wrote: »
    Fats contribute a greater percentage (and amount) of energy at 25% VO2max (i.e. walking pace), around 50% of the energy at 65% VO2max (i.e. steady state pace), and around 25% of the energy at 85% VO2max (i.e. an intense aerobic bout with some significant anaerobic energy involved).

    Great post. So to burn fat at an optimal rate, much longer relaxed spins would seem more effective. e.g. 6 hours at 50% would seem to burn more fat than 4 hours at 75%. Can't quite understand the metric kcal.kg-1.min-1, which to me read kcal.1/kg.1/min, or kcals per kilo (of body weight?) per minute. So from the graph for my 85kg, at 65% VO2max, I'm burning 100/85 = 1.176 kcals of fat per minute, or 70 kcals (~8 grams) of fat per hour. I've obviously got this totally wrong, but how?


  • #350
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    smacl wrote: »
    Pete, one question; What are your goals in pursuing this diet? I see references to feeling better / healthier, racing, and losing weight, but is there a single primary objective?

    It was to end constant tiredness, blood sugar highs and lows, being run down and waking up in a fog. I was missing work (I get paid by the hour) and falling asleep often at my desk. Within days all that was drastically reduced.

    Unexpectedly I gained more day to day energy, lost some weight, reduced my asthma symptoms, reduced recovery times and my performance seems to have gone up despite training less. Though the performance gain may be due to the reduction in asthma rather than directly from the diet. Or a combination of both.

    So I became interested in finding out what was going on in my body. And I became interested to find out if a lot of the wisdom that is passed down about training & nutrition a load of nonsense. Or is it suitable for some people and not for others. Which I think is the case.


  • #351
    ford2600
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,457 ✭✭✭ford2600


    This is a great thread.

    I've never struggled with weight, but have always been told by doctors to watch my cholesterol which was creeping up.(After visiting Pfizer's lipitor plant about 12 months ago and being told $12billion dollars a year went out door, while all the time sponsoring said doctors clinic I was a bit sceptical).

    Would always have eaten what was considered a "healthy" diet, but despite cutting out all chocolate or other sweet deserts, fat meat, alcohol etc for 6 months my cholesterol stayed put at 6.2 or so. With this in mind was starting to question lot of stuff when happened upon this thread.

    Doing a 3 month experiment. Have cut bread, granola pasta from diet and don't miss it. Have replaced with higher levels of raw veg, nuts, chickpeas, meat and cheese and greek youghurt(yum yum).

    Doing about 300km a week on bike, and have as much energy as before. Big difference is the constant root in press/fridge for granola and fruit the intake of which originally put me thinking.

    Will post again after blood test in November. As an aside have done a lot of reading on cholesterol on how it's calculated and presented to patient and all I'll say is next doctor I visit better be ready for me!


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  • #352
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    smacl wrote: »
    Beer is the bottom line for me in terms of weight loss, I know damn well whatever else I do, if I cut the beer I'll lose weight. If I don't, it will be a struggle. I planted a bunch of apple and pear trees some years back, and have been making my own cider for the last couple of years. Doesn't help lose any weight, but tastes so much better than anything you could buy. !

    Again I'll repeat that I did not intend or need to lose weight but I do get horrendous hangovers from drinking beer. I find now that a big night out on the red wine is much easier to get over than going for a few quiet pints of beer. Obviously there are still consequences to a night out but I am able to get up before mid day after a night out now.

    I was never someone who particularly enjoyed beer for the taste of it as a lot of people do. I don't get an urge to go for a couple of pints for pints sake or have a can in the house. In my last house we let a whole load of cans go out of date! So I don't miss it.


  • #353
    Caroline_ie
    Registered Users Posts: 5,400 ✭✭✭Caroline_ie


    My turn to give my 2c.
    Since going LCHF :

    - I have no tummy problems at all. I was already gluten and wheat free, this totally fixed me.
    - I have no food cravings in the middle of the day of after a meal. Sometimes I get hungry, but I don't crave the crap stuff.
    - I actually sit down to eat and no longer rush on my plate at dinner time, sometimes even before it's done cooking.
    - My body is still wondering what the hell is going on when I am trying to sprint, but that will pass.
    - You do look weird in work when you put butter in your coffee ...


  • #354
    niceonetom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,833 ✭✭✭niceonetom


    I found this presentation quite interesting. Plenty of graphs and it directly addresses some of the most common misconceptions.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSeSTq-N4U4


  • #355
    Caroline_ie
    Registered Users Posts: 5,400 ✭✭✭Caroline_ie


    niceonetom wrote: »
    I found this presentation quite interesting. Plenty of graphs and it directly addresses some of the most common misconceptions.

    Watching this video is actually what made me want to try LCHF.


  • #356
    MediaMan
    Registered Users Posts: 454 ✭✭MediaMan


    To address the point of "does this thread belong here?", I would say it certainly does, or maybe even in the main cycling forum.

    This is not just about diet, it is about the interaction between diet and cycling. I'm very interested in this because, although I believe I eat fairly healthily, when cycling long events I have been cramming in lots of carbs. This includes beforehand in the form of "carb loading", during events with sports drinks other sweet stuff, and afterwards with plenty carbs in a recovery drink or meal. This was based on the advice I got when I started - about 3 years ago.

    At that time when I started cycling, I definitely needed to keep the carbs coming or I would completely run out of energy after an hour or so. After a couple of years, I found I needed to do this less, and then I got to thinking whether I needed to do it at all. Right now I am at the stage where I can cycle for up to 3 hours or so on a good breakfast with very little extra food. Any more than that and I need stuff on the bike - I usually try to stick to bananas and maybe one of those dried fruit bars.

    But anyway, my point is that the accepted wisdom is that we need to stuff ourselves with sugar while cycling, so anything that challenges that is very interesting to me. And I won't find info on that over on H&F.

    On the issue of who to believe - that is way more tricky. There is so much claim and counter-claim and accusation and counter-accusation out there that it is difficult to know what's what. I believe that if there was a clear, readily available answer out there, then it would have won through and everyone would be aware of it. I don't believe that all the big pharma, supplement and diet dollars in the world could keep that from happening. So the reality is that it is complex area and no-one has a monopoly on what is right.

    What is most interesting to me is that some people have been able to adapt to a low-carb diet and still perform on the bike. That tells me there are options. With regards to what's best for me, I'm taking the figure-it-out-for-myself approach, armed with a healthy does of skepticism.

    Well done Pete for starting this thread and to all who are contributing - it's the most interesting thread I've seen in quite a while.


  • #357
    niceonetom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,833 ✭✭✭niceonetom


    This CyclingTips blog is worth a quick read for those of us interested in this diet not just as a route to general wellness but as a potential way to sucking less on the bike.


    http://cyclingtips.com.au/2013/08/high-fat-low-carb-diets-good-for-you-and-your-cycling/


  • #358
    Ole Rodrigo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,013 ✭✭✭Ole Rodrigo


    MediaMan wrote: »
    To address the point of "does this thread belong here?", I would say it certainly does, or maybe even in the main cycling forum.
    This is not just about diet, it is about the interaction between diet and cycling.

    + 1. It seems a lot of us engaged in leisure or amatuer cycling have questions about sugar in our diets, and hearing what those similar to ourselves have to say is beneficial and very interesting.
    MediaMan wrote: »
    What is most interesting to me is that some people have been able to adapt to a low-carb diet and still perform on the bike.

    This is also very interesting. It seems that there is a limit to this though - there are many more vegan athletes at the top end than those on HFLC , so its interesting to see where the balance lies and and what point it becomes relevant to us individually.


  • #359
    ROK ON
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,831 ✭✭✭ROK ON


    I am watching the Great British Bake Off on BBC 2 and finding it very difficult not to put on my apron and bake and Angel Cake dripping with Passion fruit.

    Is this what it feels like watching illicit p0rn.


  • #360
    j@utis
    Registered Users Posts: 3,064 ✭✭✭j@utis


    cooking shows? Posh Nosh ;)


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  • #361
    AstraMonti
    Registered Users Posts: 5,718 ✭✭✭AstraMonti


    Had a beer last night after a long time, I felt bloated like never before in my life all night.

    Still have few days before I return to Ireland and my mother has been driving me crazy. She has told me about everyone she knows that died from heart attacks from cholesterol or from clogged arteries. I went and bought her a book in greek that explains everything about cholesterol, I think she will read it eventually. Interesting times ahead.


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