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UFC 254 - Khabib v Gaethje

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    #422
    froog
    Registered Users Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭froog


    khabib supposedly walks around at 190 ish. that's a big weight cut for WW, not to mention LW. he's effectively a weight class bigger than most people in the division.


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    #423
    Esse85
    Registered Users Posts: 8,236 ✭✭✭Esse85


    froog wrote: »
    weight is a huge advantage in MMA. it's why conor looked invincible at FW and more human at LW and WW. it's definitely a big thing in khabibs favour. he should be fighting at WW. just like conor had no real business fighting at FW.

    He should be fighting at the weight he's able to make, while not effecting his performance. That goes for any fighter.

    Saying Conor had no business fighting at FW is embarrassing.
    He made the weight every time and became FW champion.
    What more can he do?


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    #424
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,148 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    Yeah this discussion is getting pretty old.

    If it's a case that Khabib shouldn't be fighting at 155, then is also the case that most of the division should move up too.

    Also, it would mean that the lads at WW would need to move up to MW and so on. So Khabib would still fight the same guys, just without the weight cut. Which might even make the gap between them bigger!

    Weight classes exist whether you like it or not. The rules are the rules and he stuck to them. Trying to belittle his performance and/or performances in this way is pretty pathetic


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    #425
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,148 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    eagle eye wrote: »
    As regards the weigh in, I don't think he waited for the bar to stop.
    Khabib looked like death warmed up at the weigh in.
    As regards their weights in the ring, I have no idea but there looked to be a big difference in size and weight.

    Please answer this:

    Considering Khabib put Justin under pressure from the first second, used technical take downs, sliced through Justin's guard like it wasn't there (can't remember someone giving up mount so easily), went for a armbar, finished the fight with a mounted triangle..........

    Can you explain to me what part of this had to do with him being, according to you, heavier than Justin? Are you saying that all of this technical superiority was down to weight?


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    #426
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 37,505 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    MrStuffins wrote:
    Can you explain to me what part of this had to do with him being, according to you, heavier than Justin? Are you saying that all of this technical superiority was down to weight?
    Let's be clear, I'm not belittling Khabib's skills in any way.
    I think it made it easier for him to overpower Gaethje though.

    I am only talking about this fight, not any of his previous ones.


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    #427
    Esse85
    Registered Users Posts: 8,236 ✭✭✭Esse85


    Eagle eye, what weight do you think both fighters weighed on fight night?

    I've no idea by the way.

    We all know both were 155 for weigh in, but what about fight night?


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    #428
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users Posts: 20,520 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    MrStuffins wrote: »
    Please answer this:

    Considering Khabib put Justin under pressure from the first second, used technical take downs, sliced through Justin's guard like it wasn't there (can't remember someone giving up mount so easily), went for a armbar, finished the fight with a mounted triangle..........

    Can you explain to me what part of this had to do with him being, according to you, heavier than Justin? Are you saying that all of this technical superiority was down to weight?

    Im not saying was a bigger man just playing devils advocate,
    The pressure, and thats a huge tool Khabib uses, If your the bigger man you can walk people down more and back then up more, Khabin never took a backwards step thats something Justin never faced before and was the reason he was so gassed

    Its like Conor at 145, just to strong for everyone else, Just makes then able to impose themselves, and people cant deal with it,Obviously Conor done it in a different way but just both seem unbeatable in there weight classes,

    Khabib never moved up id imagine one reason was because he knew the guys at 170 would have the ability to stand there ground and some could back him up
    His style just wouldnt have the same amount of success up there


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    #429
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 37,505 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Esse85 wrote: »
    Eagle eye, what weight do you think both fighters weighed on fight night?

    I've no idea by the way.

    We all know both were 155 for weigh in, but what about fight night?

    Well we don't know for certain that Khabib was 155 on the night. I certainly was not happy with the weigh in. I posted that in this thread long before the fight.
    Not being happy with that and then seeing a noticeable size and weight difference on fight night makes me more certain of my concerns about the weigh in.

    If you say Gaethje was a natural lightweight one day removed from a weigh in then I'd say Khabib looked like I'd expect Usman to look.

    Here's where I posted about the weigh in. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=115038040&postcount=63


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    #430
    Esse85
    Registered Users Posts: 8,236 ✭✭✭Esse85


    eagle eye wrote: »
    Well we don't know for certain that Khabib was 155 on the night. I certainly was not happy with the weigh in. I posted that in this thread long before the fight.
    Not being happy with that and then seeing a noticeable size and weight difference on fight night makes me more certain of my concerns about the weigh in.

    If you say Gaethje was a natural lightweight one day removed from a weigh in then I'd say Khabib looked like I'd expect Usman to look.

    Here's where I posted about the weigh in. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=115038040&postcount=63

    Do you understand what fight night is?

    Stop making up answers to questions you weren't asked.

    On the night of the fight, what weight do you think each fighter weighed?


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    #431
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 37,505 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    I gave you my impression of the difference between them. How am I supposed to guess their weights?
    I'm talking about the stark difference in size between them.

    The weigh in looked very dodgy.


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    #432
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    eagle eye wrote: »
    I gave you my impression of the difference between them. How am I supposed to guess their weights?
    I'm talking about the stark difference in size between them.

    The weigh in looked very dodgy.

    You’re seeing what you wanna see.


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    #433
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 37,505 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    weldoninhio wrote:
    You’re seeing what you wanna see.
    Are you outright saying that Khabib didn't look way bigger than Gaethje?
    Are you outright saying that there was nothing dodgy looking about the Khabib weigh in?


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    #434
    xtal191
    Registered Users Posts: 6,308 ✭✭✭xtal191


    They look like they're from the same division

    i?img=%2Fmedia%2Fmotion%2F2020%2F1023%2Fdm_201023_ufc_khabib_gaethje_weigh_ins%2Fdm_201023_ufc_khabib_gaethje_weigh_ins.jpg&w=640&h=360&format=jpg

    1_UFC-254-Khabib-v-Gaethje-Weigh-in.jpg


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    #435
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    I'm sorry, but this whole "massive size difference" is an absolute spoof. Khabib is not a big lightweight, walk-around weight and fight camp weight and then fight week weight are not the same things. Darren Till used to tell everyone how huge he was for welterweight, that he used to walk around at 200lbs. Have you seen Darren Till @ 200lbs+?

    Khabib doesn't oversize his opponents, in fact I would argue that Conor was slightly bigger than him, Khabib just has immense strength due to his training and discipline. Luke Rockhold (probably one of the biggest middleweights I've ever seen in MMA) repeatedly stated in interviews how strong Khabib is. He wasn't enormously bigger than Justin. Stop with that narrative. There was a slight size difference if any and it was purely due to definition, Justin does not have the same body definition Khabib has.

    Go watch Tibau vs Khabib if you want to see size difference.


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    #436
    Esse85
    Registered Users Posts: 8,236 ✭✭✭Esse85


    eagle eye wrote: »
    I gave you my impression of the difference between them. How am I supposed to guess their weights?
    I'm talking about the stark difference in size between them.

    The weigh in looked very dodgy.

    Your giving answers to questions I haven't asked.
    Forget the weigh in, we all know what both fighters weighed during the weigh in.

    If you had to guess, roughly, what do you think each fighter weighted on the night of the fight?

    I don't know the answer, not sure if it was even released.
    But you seem to be an expert in size and weight matters, because multiple posts of yours have commented on that, so tell us what you think?


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    #437
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,148 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    eagle eye wrote: »
    Let's be clear, I'm not belittling Khabib's skills in any way.
    I think it made it easier for him to overpower Gaethje though.

    I am only talking about this fight, not any of his previous ones.

    So how much do you really think the weight mattered, considering Gaethje got triangled from mount?

    How different do you think the fight would have been if they were (assuming they didn't) the exact same weight on the night? Do you think the outcome of the fight is different?


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    #438
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,148 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    xtal191 wrote: »
    They look like they're from the same division

    i?img=%2Fmedia%2Fmotion%2F2020%2F1023%2Fdm_201023_ufc_khabib_gaethje_weigh_ins%2Fdm_201023_ufc_khabib_gaethje_weigh_ins.jpg&w=640&h=360&format=jpg

    1_UFC-254-Khabib-v-Gaethje-Weigh-in.jpg

    This below picture has been posted a few times now but Eagle Eye keeps trying to insist that they're from different weight classes.

    That is definitely not what the picture illustrates


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    #439
    Alf Veedersane
    Registered Users Posts: 24,552 ✭✭✭✭Alf Veedersane


    Regardless of what the official weigh in says, Khabib's weigh in did look suspect.

    Everything else - what he weighed in the octagon, whether he should move up etc etc - is a separate issue. I don't think he's too big for LW in any case.

    But the movement of the scale suggested he was over 155 to me.


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    #440
    Fromvert
    Registered Users Posts: 5,081 ✭✭✭Fromvert


    Esse85 wrote: »
    Eagle eye, what weight do you think both fighters weighed on fight night?

    I've no idea by the way.

    We all know both were 155 for weigh in, but what about fight night?

    Only California (I believe) check and release the weight of fighters on fight night and neither have fought there. But before Gaethje fought Ferguson he said he'll be around 173 lbs on fight night so you'd expect similar this time around.

    https://twitter.com/bokamotoESPN/status/1247633660880142336

    I've never heard Khabib actually mention what his weight is on fight night and I can only find stuff like this https://www.rt.com/sport/468280-khabib-weight-gain-ufc-242/ where apparently he was 172lbs for his fight with Poirier and all it has is 'a source said' so it can't be taken as 100% true.

    If there was more than 3-5 lbs between them on fight night I'd be shocked.


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    #441
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,148 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    Fromvert wrote: »
    Only California (I believe) check and release the weight of fighters on fight night and neither have fought there. But before Gaethje fought Ferguson he said he'll be around 173 lbs on fight night so you'd expect similar this time around.

    https://twitter.com/bokamotoESPN/status/1247633660880142336

    I've never heard Khabib actually mention what his weight is on fight night and I can only find stuff like this https://www.rt.com/sport/468280-khabib-weight-gain-ufc-242/ where apparently he was 172lbs for his fight with Poirier and all it has is 'a source said' so it can't be taken as 100% true.

    If there was more than 3-5 lbs between them on fight night I'd be shocked.

    Boom!


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    #442
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 37,505 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Esse85 wrote:
    I don't know the answer, not sure if it was even released. But you seem to be an expert in size and weight matters, because multiple posts of yours have commented on that, so tell us what you think?
    My eyes seen one guy that looked way bigger than the other. It's that simple.

    Put that together with a dodgy weigh in and you have to have suspicions.

    Of course you don't want to talk about the weigh in. Neither does anybody else except to say he made weight.

    You want to control the conversation too for some reason rather than just discuss it all.

    Like asking me to guess their weights in fight night is ridiculous.
    If you said Gaethje was 162 on the night then I'd guess that Khabib was 175+.


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    #443
    sonofenoch
    Registered Users Posts: 2,136 ✭✭✭sonofenoch


    robarmstrong wrote: »
    I'm sorry, but this whole "massive size difference" is an absolute spoof. Khabib is not a big lightweight, walk-around weight and fight camp weight and then fight week weight are not the same things. Darren Till used to tell everyone how huge he was for welterweight, that he used to walk around at 200lbs. Have you seen Darren Till @ 200lbs+?

    Khabib doesn't oversize his opponents, in fact I would argue that Conor was slightly bigger than him, Khabib just has immense strength due to his training and discipline. Luke Rockhold (probably one of the biggest middleweights I've ever seen in MMA) repeatedly stated in interviews how strong Khabib is. He wasn't enormously bigger than Justin. Stop with that narrative. There was a slight size difference if any and it was purely due to definition, Justin does not have the same body definition Khabib has.

    Go watch Tibau vs Khabib if you want to see size difference.

    Must admit I've never got the Khabib size thing, he certainly never looks particularly 'ripped' .......but just in general size he's never looked an overly big man to my eye


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    #444
    Esse85
    Registered Users Posts: 8,236 ✭✭✭Esse85


    eagle eye wrote: »
    My eyes seen one guy that looked way bigger than the other. It's that simple.

    Put that together with a dodgy weigh in and you have to have suspicions.

    Of course you don't want to talk about the weigh in. Neither does anybody else except to say he made weight.

    You want to control the conversation too for some reason rather than just discuss it all.

    Like asking me to guess their weights in fight night is ridiculous.
    If you said Gaethje was 162 on the night then I'd guess that Khabib was 175+.

    Your happy to guess that Khabib didn't make weight at the weight in, your continually making comments about how much bigger Khabib looked during the fight, and then when I asked you to roughly guess the weights, you duck and dive and vomit all over yourself.

    But thank you or finally giving your opinion on what you feel both fighters weighed. I would be interested to hear what the official numbers were and hope it comes out to solve my own curiosity.


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    #445
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,148 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    eagle eye wrote: »
    My eyes seen one guy that looked way bigger than the other. It's that simple.

    Put that together with a dodgy weigh in and you have to have suspicions.

    Of course you don't want to talk about the weigh in. Neither does anybody else except to say he made weight.

    You want to control the conversation too for some reason rather than just discuss it all.

    Like asking me to guess their weights in fight night is ridiculous.
    If you said Gaethje was 162 on the night then I'd guess that Khabib was 175+.

    Any chance of an answer to the questions I asked you directly?
    MrStuffins wrote: »
    So how much do you really think the weight mattered, considering Gaethje got triangled from mount?

    How different do you think the fight would have been if they were (assuming they didn't) the exact same weight on the night? Do you think the outcome of the fight is different?


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    #446
    froog
    Registered Users Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭froog


    robarmstrong wrote: »
    I'm sorry, but this whole "massive size difference" is an absolute spoof. Khabib is not a big lightweight, walk-around weight and fight camp weight and then fight week weight are not the same things. Darren Till used to tell everyone how huge he was for welterweight, that he used to walk around at 200lbs. Have you seen Darren Till @ 200lbs+?

    Khabib doesn't oversize his opponents, in fact I would argue that Conor was slightly bigger than him, Khabib just has immense strength due to his training and discipline. Luke Rockhold (probably one of the biggest middleweights I've ever seen in MMA) repeatedly stated in interviews how strong Khabib is. He wasn't enormously bigger than Justin. Stop with that narrative. There was a slight size difference if any and it was purely due to definition, Justin does not have the same body definition Khabib has.

    Go watch Tibau vs Khabib if you want to see size difference.

    Gaethje walks around at about 165-170.
    khabib walks around at about 190.


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    #447
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 37,505 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    MrStuffins wrote:
    Any chance of an answer to the questions I asked you directly?
    I think it makes a massive difference. I think if there's not such a size difference that Gaethje gets off the ground. He was manhandled by a much bigger man, a great fighter on the ground with a huge size advantage. Like khabib was able to hold him m down with ease with what didn't look like too much trouble.
    I'd expect Khabib to win on the ground and likely get a submission win but this was all to easy and for me the weight and size advantage played a huge part.

    And for any of you that haven't seen the weigh in go look at it and how the bar wasn't let stop before he called it.


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    #448
    Tazzimus
    Registered Users Posts: 3,933 ✭✭✭Tazzimus


    froog wrote: »
    Gaethje walks around at about 165-170.
    khabib walks around at about 190.

    When he had major issues making weight, maybe.
    I'd say he's about 180 out of camp these days and mid 170s at the start of camp.

    Justins a little over 170 usually, so they're in or around the same weight. The difference is how they're built. Justin has a leaner looking frame than Khabib.


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    #449
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,148 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    eagle eye wrote: »
    I think it makes a massive difference. I think if there's not such a size difference that Gaethje gets off the ground. He was manhandled by a much bigger man, a great fighter on the ground with a huge size advantage. Like khabib was able to hold him m down with ease with what didn't look like too much trouble.
    I'd expect Khabib to win on the ground and likely get a submission win but this was all to easy and for me the weight and size advantage played a huge part.

    And for any of you that haven't seen the weigh in go look at it and how the bar wasn't let stop before he called it.

    So, what you're saying was that Khabib winning the grappling was not due to his years and years of experience in grappling in Russia. Not down to his years and years of high level competition. Not contributed you by his history of wrestling bears.

    Not down to his continued training with some of the best grapplers in the sport. Not down to him being the consensus best grappler in the whole sport........

    It was because he weighed a few lbs more than his opponent?


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    #450
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    froog wrote: »
    Gaethje walks around at about 165-170.
    khabib walks around at about 190.

    What's the difference between walk around weight and post weigh-in hydration weight?

    Walk around weight is irrelevant, they are not in camp. It is irrelevant what weight a fighter walks around at.

    What is relevant is (in order of sequence):

    1. Fight camp weight.
    2. Two weeks before weigh-in.
    3. Fight-week weight.
    4. Weigh-in day.
    5. Post weigh-in day (fully hydrated).

    Justin has stated previously that he walks into a cage weighing around 173lbs.

    Khabib usually walks into a cage around the same. There are sources and interviews out there that indicate that. Khabib has fought under CSAC & NSAC to the best of my knowledge which fines a fighter for going above 10% of their contracted weigh-in weight: meaning he cannot weigh above 155+ 10% come fight night.

    The obsession with walk-around weight is a meaningless stat, simple as.


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    #451
    mdwexford
    Registered Users Posts: 11,274 ✭✭✭✭mdwexford


    eagle eye wrote: »
    I think it makes a massive difference. I think if there's not such a size difference that Gaethje gets off the ground. He was manhandled by a much bigger man, a great fighter on the ground with a huge size advantage. Like khabib was able to hold him m down with ease with what didn't look like too much trouble.
    I'd expect Khabib to win on the ground and likely get a submission win but this was all to easy and for me the weight and size advantage played a huge part.

    And for any of you that haven't seen the weigh in go look at it and how the bar wasn't let stop before he called it.

    Give it a rest you’re talking absolute nonsense.
    So now it’s size and not skill that stopped Justin getting up.

    A huge size advantage my arse. Much bigger man.
    What are you on about.

    What do you think he was at the weigh in, 165 pounds and rehydrated to 185 or something. He made 155, get over it.

    Lol at him being the size of Usman.


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