Is stoicism a good way to live?

[Deleted User] · 25-11-2020 8:24pm

If you're interested in stoicism, but not sure, have look at Epicurus.
Some cross pollination between the two with the concept of ataraxia, although with slightly different meanings, and how to achieve, but would have been an influence on Marcus Aurelius.

Friends, inner peace, contentedness and an absence of want, freedom from irrational fears (death, god) are they key to happiness.

Good ideas on death as well.
Christians weren't mad about him for obvious reasons

cloudatlas · 25-11-2020 8:52pm

completedit wrote: »

A lot is made about stoicism and it has a sense of nobility about it. Standing up and dusting yourself down no matter what. Facing things as they are and just embracing them. However, when you change stoicism to "stiff upper lip" it becomes a little less dignified. I associate it with a passivity and a lack of emotion when what makes us human is our very emotions. I think with all things in life, everything in equal measure. Stoicism is suitable in some scenarios and in response to some events but is found wanting in others.

Are you talking about the modern conception of stoicism or the ancient philosophy Stocisim as they are two different things.

One is the modern-day concept of a personality trait or coping style which is stiff upper lip and a tough it out kind of attitude.

The second school of Greek philosophy that subsequently flourished throughout the Roman empire, and lasted for about five centuries. The stiff upper lip emotion suppression is not what Stoicism teaches, they taught that rather than attempting to suppress feelings we should not interpret them as good or bad we should modify that judgement. Stoics are more concerned with the response to those feelings and emotions rather than judging them as either good or bad (suppressing). They believe that: 'It is not things that worry us, but our judgements about things.” Which is a positive way of coping with emotions of any kind.

CBT takes some of it's framework from stoic thought.

riclad · 25-11-2020 8:55pm

I think its a good way to live in that it recognises that life is chaotic and that
theres no point in worrying about things we have no control of.
Life is not fair , bad things can happen to good people .if you do not expect
alot you will never be disappointed

Sardonicat · 25-11-2020 9:00pm

and in the morning Diamonds of Frost wrote: »

It is possible to acknowledge our feelings and hurts, understand them and move on.

That is Stoicism . It's not about suppressing feelings, but rather, understanding them and not letting them take the place of rational thought.

ETA: cloud atlas puts it much better above

COVID · 25-11-2020 9:02pm

Might try it, could be a bit of craic.

cloudatlas · 25-11-2020 9:24pm

COVID wrote: »

Might try it, could be a bit of craic.

I recommend 'Lessons in Stoicism: What Ancient Philosophers Teach Us about How to live' by John Sellars as a starting point, really short and easy to read.

COVID · 25-11-2020 9:48pm

cloudatlas wrote: »

I recommend 'Lessons in Stoicism: What Ancient Philosophers Teach Us about How to live' by John Sellars as a starting point, really short and easy to read.

I'm reading it now for the half-time break at the Liverpool match.
Cracking stuff, it's defo a page-turner!

[Deleted User] · 25-11-2020 10:28pm

Sardonicat wrote: »

That is Stoicism . It's not about suppressing feelings, but rather, understanding them and not letting them take the place of rational thought.

ETA: cloud atlas puts it much better above

I should have explained a little more. We are more than our emotions and more than our rational thoughts. Being connected to our emotions and exploring them is what helps us heal (if needed) and be fully self aware. They aren't less than rational thought they are just different. There are times when we act purely from emotion, that's ok. As Cloud atlas said no judgement of ourselves. Being present in them is important. It's the opposite of suppression but also different to wallowing.

They way I see it a fully realised individual is both rational and emotional with no conflict between both states but instead balance and acceptance.

Now I'm off to sit cross legged and gaze at the stars

[Deleted User] · 25-11-2020 10:34pm

Also just on what Cloud Atlas wrote about the response to our emotions. I think the emotions themselves need digging in to and understanding before we look at response. CBT can be very useful but but far too many times I find people see it as a quick fix because they are unable or unwilling to sit with their emotions and do that kind of deep reflection.

CountNjord · 25-11-2020 10:43pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I can’t help thinking that’s not a very stoical response. Your clearly not over the left, the leftys, the cucks, the woke, the disloyal, narcissists, the promiscuous the knobs, the dirty liberal leftys, the SJWs etc. You’re couching it as though you’re over all this stuff but in reality it was just a statement of how cross you are with the left. Stoicism is probably not about passive aggression.

I don't really care what you think

El_Duderino 09 · 25-11-2020 11:04pm

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

I literally said nothing of the sort.

You must be wearing your shades indoors again, take them off and read my post again.

Yeah you equated stoicism with “toxic masculinity”. Among the things people often call “toxic masculinity” are the things I listed above, not stoicism.

P.s I never use the term “toxic masculinity”.

El_Duderino 09 · 25-11-2020 11:05pm

CountNjord wrote: »

I don't really care what you think

Sure. And you’re not bitter at the lefties. That’s why you mentioned and insulted them a dozen times in your opening post. lol.

CountNjord · 25-11-2020 11:07pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Sure. And you’re not bitter at the lefties. That’s why you mentioned and insulted them a dozen times in your opening post. lol.

I was dwelling on the past lol
And no I'm not bitter at the lefties lol

It's all in the past now lol

Smee_Again · 25-11-2020 11:10pm

CountNjord wrote: »

I was dwelling on the past lol
And no I'm not bitter at the lefties lol

It's all in the past now lol

Just stating it over and over doesn’t make it so.

El_Duderino 09 · 25-11-2020 11:10pm

CountNjord wrote: »

I was dwelling on the past lol
And no I'm not bitter at the lefties lol

It's all in the past now lol

Yeah you posted it 2 hours ago. Maybe you got over it since then, but you post is pretty clear.

CountNjord · 25-11-2020 11:19pm

Smee_Again wrote: »

Just stating it over and over doesn’t make it so.

Sounds ironic coming from someone called Smee_Again

CountNjord · 25-11-2020 11:21pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah you posted it 2 hours ago. Maybe you got over it since then, but you post is pretty clear.

You seem to like looking at your own reflection in muddy waters, maybe you should wait for the silt to settle then try not to stir the muddy puddle.

buried · 25-11-2020 11:22pm

Of course it is a good way to live as long as you don't let it dictate everything, you have to find a balance to it. Live in the moment in your immediate surroundings and basically handle what those surroundings throw at you and you can't go wrong. That's what stoicism is to me. Too many people nowadays want to saddle themselves to nothing but ridiculous transient far away noise in order to lose their complete $hit over that doesn't even effect them in any way shape or form. It's like all that Trump $hite from the last four-five years, people living in Ireland getting all riled up over some person thousands of miles away, who in the end is going to be gone anyways in a few weeks. F**k that noise. What good was it? Getting stressed over noise like that which ultimately all ends anyways. That's no way to live either.

.anon. · 25-11-2020 11:58pm

CountNjord wrote: »

I was dwelling on the past lol
And no I'm not bitter at the lefties lol

It's all in the past now lol

Glad to hear you're not bitter at the dirty liberal lefty types, the cucks and the freaks, whom you hate because they're a shower of knobs. I don't know why people are saying that you are bitter, tbh. There's certainly no indication of it in your post.

I've become very stoic over the years. Life very much 'is what it is'. It doesn't mean that things don't make me sad or angry - I just tend not to dwell on things that I don't have the ability (or the inclination) to change.

CountNjord · 26-11-2020 8:59am

.anon. wrote: »

Glad to hear you're not bitter at the dirty liberal lefty types, the cucks and the freaks, whom you hate because they're a shower of knobs. I don't know why people are saying that you are bitter, tbh. There's certainly no indication of it in your post.

I've become very stoic over the years. Life very much 'is what it is'. It doesn't mean that things don't make me sad or angry - I just tend not to dwell on things that I don't have the ability (or the inclination) to change.

That's it in a nutshell, just don't get emotionally attached in a negative way to the past, present and never write a script in one's head for the future.

Now again someone who is stoic can have a fleeting resentment or get annoyed with a situation, but it doesn't stick.

It rolls off, it doesn't mean we're the nicest people in the world or the saddest.
It just means that we can accept and move on.

And I'll repeat it again I no longer have a resentment towards those lefty's etc I should rephrase that they were strident activist's who were constantly looking for something to upset them.
Whether it's political, environmental or something else.

I just don't associate with them anymore..

mariaalice · 26-11-2020 10:11am

It's the most beneficial way to live from a mental health point of view and a lot of it comes down to personality but you have to be realistic parents who have a child die are entitled to feel life is not fair.

Woe is me and cynicism is a dreadful way to live but personality may be a big factor in that as well.

El_Duderino 09 · 26-11-2020 10:44am

CountNjord wrote: »

You seem to like looking at your own reflection in muddy waters, maybe you should wait for the silt to settle then try not to stir the muddy puddle.

Deep, man. Deep.

I’m not cross with the lefties and all the other insulting terms you used in your first post. You’re cross with them ( or you were when you posted it last night. But you’re totally over it, like, totally over it. So over it) lol

CountNjord · 26-11-2020 11:07am

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Deep, man. Deep.

I’m not cross with the lefties and all the other insulting terms you used in your first post. You’re cross with them ( or you were when you posted it last night. But you’re totally over it, like, totally over it. So over it) lol

Well looking up here from the depts of the clear azure blue it looks like there's no shimmering or silt dividing what's been discussed between me who and you...

lol fancy hopping on a unicorn and flying through rainbows

Invidious · 26-11-2020 11:20am

cloudatlas wrote: »

I recommend 'Lessons in Stoicism: What Ancient Philosophers Teach Us about How to live' by John Sellars as a starting point, really short and easy to read.

Another good recent introduction is The Obstacle Is the Way: The Timeless Art of Turning Trials into Triumph by Ryan Holiday.

Stoicism isn't about going through life like an emotionless robot, but learning how to be resilient and cope better when things get tough.

ILoveYourVibes · 26-11-2020 3:07pm

It makes it nicer for others to be around you.

vangoz · 26-11-2020 3:11pm

CountNjord wrote: »

Been practicing Stoicism for the last 10 year's because I was as bit of a lefty, liberal, cuck and over sensitive.

So in 2010 being a liberal because I was looking up to these narcissistic spiritual loons who were walking contradictions, it nearly sucked the soul out of me.

So I started researching Marcus Aurelius and stoicism, it brought me away from the woke crowd and freak's.
So I began a journey, it's much easier to be Stoic while you're a single independent guy or woman.

Anyhow I really hated liberals, SJWs and the woke crowd, because they're a shower of knobs.
Lacked loyalty, had no problems sleeping around behind partners backs, and justifying bad behaviour.

I knew I didn't fit in with liberals and SJWs, so a few friends of mine who were non liberal bohemians suggested that Stoicism might be for me.

It took a while to get an empathetic balance and drop the sensitivity and outrage over what the SJWs and liberals tried to instill in the group mentality.

I'm thankful for these people who introduced me to Stoicism and get away from the dirty liberal lefty types.

I'm no longer motivated by politics or sociology, I just see the good in situations, and anything that's potentially dangerous or has the possibility of stress and anxiety I steer clear of it.

Keeping all the ducks in a row, don't say stupid things and think about the thought, action and ramifications if it goes against me.
So always think three layer's of possibilities.

I do hope my post doesn't trigger anyone,it's not my intention.

This is clearly satire, right?

CountNjord · 26-11-2020 5:41pm

vangoz wrote: »

This is clearly satire, right?

If you've read the previous responses, we've cleared it up.

I rephrased it a bit more to say that these people I didn't, didn't like were strident activist's...

But I don't dislike them anymore, only to conclude we're indifferent.

If we meet on the street,we stop and say hello and wave goodbye.

Why do people take people's post's so literally here, they skip the bit in the middle and come up with something totally different.

It's like telling someone you're into fishing, only for some idiot to come up with a wise crack and say "why don't you cut out the middle man and buy the fish"

Wonder's never cease to amaze me

[Deleted User] · 27-11-2020 10:09am

Yeah there is a confusion over what the word means. Some think stoicism is about not expressing emotions or keeping suffering quiet to yourself. Probably not helped by dictionaries often listing exactly that as the first definition.

For me stoicism is about the idea that often events in the world do not cause our problems - but our reactions to those events.

And then the idea that we can only control certain things in life. And our attempts to control things we can not lead to anxiety and frustration. So instead learning to focus ourselves on the small sphere of things we actually can control and change.

So stoicism is about avoiding unnecessary suffering and anxiety.

silverharp · 27-11-2020 10:21am

I havnt looked at the concept from a philosophical position but if I have a sense of it, it probably would be in lean in the direction that we dont have as much free will as we think we do, so no point getting overly upset at what happens around you

[Deleted User] · 27-11-2020 10:36am

I think my reading of it is that you can be upset by or affected by things around you. But under stoicism you formulate your response to that in a way less likely to cause you suffering or anxiety. By dividing your upset into things you can control and things outside your control.

Take social injustice as an example.

You might set out to try and change that injustice and notice you are failing to do so. That nothing you do is affecting it or making noticeable progress. The outcome is out of your control and you can be upset or frustrated or disheartened or even depressed by this.

Or you can accept that this social injustice is out of your control but your response to it is not. So you might donate to charities - become activist - petition politicians and so on. And you judge nothing but yourself and your own actions. And regardless of whether anything you do actually affects - or fails to affect - that social injustice you do not actually care.

So you are accepting what is out of your control and focusing only what is in your control. An outcome might be outside your control - but how much thought and effort you put into that outcome isn't. So your impetus is to do the best you can without committing yourself or your well being to any given outcome.

Is stoicism a good way to live?

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