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Council Inspection for HAP

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245

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    #32
    Old diesel
    Registered Users Posts: 5,786 ✭✭✭Old diesel


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    What are these special HAP rules? These are just the standards for renter dwellings surely?

    The HAP inspectors seem according to people who have had inspections for HAP - insist on things like ventilation been up to 2018 building regs.

    A key issue appears to be that HAP inspectors want wall ventilation in each room. So to comply - you'd have to spend a lot of money to drill holes for this ventilation.

    Whats not clear is whether there are specific official guidelines or rules saying that all HAP properties must hit 2018 regs.

    Or if this is inspectors going over the top in their application of the rules.

    There is a 22 page checklist apparently.

    Further clarification is needed as the justification for 2018 regs needs to be explained.


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    #33
    Gileadi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭Gileadi


    Link here to the hap inspection guidelines https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/images/uploads/general/guidelines_for_housing_authorities_-_minimum_standards_in_rented_accomodation_2017_%281%29.pdf


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    #34
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,773 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    It’s laid down in legislation. It’s the same standard as for all accommodation. The requirement is for ‘adequate ventilation’.

    They can’t hold you to a new building standard.


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    #35
    emeldc
    Registered Users Posts: 2,593 ✭✭✭emeldc


    Pkiernan wrote: »
    With regards to ventilation there is no difference.

    Minimum landlord obligations detailed here:

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/repairs_maintenance_and_minimum_physical_standards.html#l629ff

    I’ve highlighted the bits I’m talking about.
    They must also provide facilities for cooking and for the hygienic storage of food, to include the following:

    4-ring hob with oven and grill
    Cooker hood or extractor fan
    Fridge and freezer, or a fridge-freezer
    Microwave oven
    Kitchen cupboards that are suitable and adequate for storing food
    Sink with mains water supply, hot water and draining area

    For dwellings rented from local authorities and approved housing bodies, the relevant requirements are in Article 7 of the Housing (Standards for Rented Houses) Regulations 1993. This Article requires the landlord to provide facilities for:

    Installation of cooking equipment with provision, where necessary, for the safe and effective removal of fumes
    Hygienic storage of food
    My appt has a cooker with filtered hood. It is not on an outside wall and so an expelair type fan cannot be fitted. But the kitchen/dining room is open plan and has plenty of other outside wall ventilation. Not good enough for the hap man unfortunately but as you can read for yourself, perfectly ok for a private tenant. By the way they also asked for an ‘ECTI’ cert and an equivalent gas cert. These alone can cost between €300-€500 each. Even my insurance company don’t look for them.


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    #36
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,773 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    He isn’t a HAP man. He’s an inspector for the local authority. He applies the same criteria to non-HAP accommodation.

    What exactly did his report say? The exact words matter.


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    #37
    emeldc
    Registered Users Posts: 2,593 ✭✭✭emeldc


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    He isn’t a HAP man. He’s an inspector for the local authority. He applies the same criteria to non-HAP accommodation.

    What exactly did his report say? The exact words matter.
    Ok, I’ll try again.
    The minimum standards for rental accommodation state;
    Cooker hood OR extractor fan. So a private tenant would have no issue with either of these.
    In my appt The cooker hood and filter is not acceptable to the inspector (sorry if I offended you by calling him the HAP man) because technically the fumes are not being extracted by a fan. I can’t remember the exact wording and I don’t have the letter handy.


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    #38
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,773 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    There is nothing wrong with your setup. Did you ask the inspector where the legislation provided for this requirement?


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    #39
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Old diesel wrote: »
    The HAP inspectors seem according to people who have had inspections for HAP - insist on things like ventilation been up to 2018 building regs.

    A key issue appears to be that HAP inspectors want wall ventilation in each room. So to comply - you'd have to spend a lot of money to drill holes for this ventilation.

    Whats not clear is whether there are specific official guidelines or rules saying that all HAP properties must hit 2018 regs.

    Or if this is inspectors going over the top in their application of the rules.

    There is a 22 page checklist apparently.

    Further clarification is needed as the justification for 2018 regs needs to be explained.

    Drilling holes in a wall for ventilation is not expensive, I own a century old stone built house which I have leased to the council for ten years, I was not going to drill through stone so fitted trickle vents on the windows, council inspector would not accept trickle vents so I fitted vented slates on the roof and piped in through the attic with Duct pipe into the bedrooms, eventually the cold outside air will result in a damp attic but the council have no common sense

    Council had no choice but accept trickle vents down stairs


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    #40
    emeldc
    Registered Users Posts: 2,593 ✭✭✭emeldc


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    There is nothing wrong with your setup. Did you ask the inspector where the legislation provided for this requirement?
    Nope. I didn’t have the funds to carry out any work at the time as I had lost out on nearly 3 months rent while waiting for the application to go through, so I said I’d wait until I got a follow up letter. It hasn’t arrived yet. The appt was inspected in June '17, and I was notified around November '17.


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    #41
    _Brian
    Registered Users Posts: 18,473 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    You can pop off the inner cover on the trickle vents and remove the damper, refit the cover and there you go, ventilation permanently open.


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    #42
    Jimbob1977
    Registered Users Posts: 2,239 ✭✭✭Jimbob1977


    Sounds like you have received the Notice of Works.

    You are supposed to remedy the situation in x number of weeks.

    If they reinspect and the defect is not repaired, you might get a Notification Letter (gentle reminder) or an Improvement Notice (a bit more stern).

    Then it depends on the Council's resources and if the tenant complains. Most Councils don't have the manpower to keep on inspecting over and over again. You can play the long game.

    However, it won't be forgotten about.

    You will probably have to fix it eventually.

    A Prohibtion Notice would be the ultimate sanction. You wouldn't be able to let again under HAP.


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    #43
    emeldc
    Registered Users Posts: 2,593 ✭✭✭emeldc


    Jimbob1977 wrote: »
    Sounds like you have received the Notice of Works.

    You are supposed to remedy the situation in x number of weeks.

    If they reinspect and the defect is not repaired, you might get a Notification Letter (gentle reminder) or an Improvement Notice (a bit more stern).

    Then it depends on the Council's resources and if the tenant complains. Most Councils don't have the manpower to keep on inspecting over and over again. You can play the long game.

    However, it won't be forgotten about.

    You will probably have to fix it eventually.

    A Prohibtion Notice would be the ultimate sanction. You wouldn't be able to let again under HAP.
    Yea, I’ve no doubt they’ll come back to me on it. I deal with it when they do. My understanding of the prohibition notice was that it was across the board, not just for a Hap rental although you’d wonder how they would enforce it on a private rental.


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    #44
    KneonK
    Registered Users Posts: 33 ✭KneonK


    emeldc wrote: »
    Ok, I’ll try again.
    The minimum standards for rental accommodation state;
    Cooker hood OR extractor fan. So a private tenant would have no issue with either of these.
    In my appt The cooker hood and filter is not acceptable to the inspector (sorry if I offended you by calling him the HAP man) because technically the fumes are not being extracted by a fan. I can’t remember the exact wording and I don’t have the letter handy.

    Hi I can offer clarification. The need for it to go to external air IS in fact from the private rented regulations. Not some mystical HAP standards. Thr wording from The Housing (Standards for Rented Houses) Regulations 2017 is:
    Suitable facilities for the effective and safe removal of fumes TO THE EXTERNAL AIR by means of a cooker hood or extractor fan.

    There is only one set of regulations regarding housing standards. The crap that people spout about special rules for HAP tenants is misleading, wrong and possibly harmful. The issue is that a HAP property has to be inspected within a certain time frame and is therefore prioritised.
    With current resources and the amount of HAP coming online, it makes it less and less likely that a non HAP property will be inspected.


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    #45
    Rows Grower
    Registered Users Posts: 7,821 ✭✭✭Rows Grower


    emeldc wrote: »
    Ok, I’ll try again.
    The minimum standards for rental accommodation state;
    Cooker hood OR extractor fan. So a private tenant would have no issue with either of these.
    In my appt The cooker hood and filter is not acceptable to the inspector (sorry if I offended you by calling him the HAP man) because technically the fumes are not being extracted by a fan. I can’t remember the exact wording and I don’t have the letter handy.

    The filter in the hood just needs to be changed, costs about 3-4 euro and takes about 2 minutes.

    "Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."

    Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.



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    #46
    emeldc
    Registered Users Posts: 2,593 ✭✭✭emeldc


    KneonK wrote: »
    Hi I can offer clarification. The need for it to go to external air IS in fact from the private rented regulations. Not some mystical HAP standards. Thr wording from The Housing (Standards for Rented Houses) Regulations 2017 is:
    Suitable facilities for the effective and safe removal of fumes TO THE EXTERNAL AIR by means of a cooker hood or extractor fan.

    There is only one set of regulations regarding housing standards. The crap that people spout about special rules for HAP tenants is misleading, wrong and possibly harmful. The issue is that a HAP property has to be inspected within a certain time frame and is therefore prioritised.
    With current resources and the amount of HAP coming online, it makes it less and less likely that a non HAP property will be inspected.

    Have a look at the highlighted sections in post #35 again. If they're not different, then why do they specify that one is min standards for rental accommodation and the other is min standards for local authority tenants/housing.
    Rows Grower wrote: »
    The filter in the hood just needs to be changed, costs about 3-4 euro and takes about 2 minutes.
    I'll pm the inspectors number and you can explain that to him.


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    #47
    KneonK
    Registered Users Posts: 33 ✭KneonK


    Oh I see the confusion, I can explain that too!

    That doesn't refer to HAP or Private rented tenants.
    It's a different derogation purely for people receiving housing under exceptional circumstances such as those housed by an approved body like FOCUS or Stepping stone etc or directly by the council.

    It wouldn't apply to this situation.


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    #48
    emeldc
    Registered Users Posts: 2,593 ✭✭✭emeldc


    KneonK wrote: »
    Oh I see the confusion, I can explain that too!

    That doesn't refer to HAP or Private rented tenants.
    It's a different derogation purely for people receiving housing under exceptional circumstances such as those housed by an approved body like FOCUS or Stepping stone etc or directly by the council.

    It wouldn't apply to this situation.

    I'm not with you. I'm quoting the Minimum Standards for Rented Accommodation in Ireland. What other standards are there?

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/repairs_maintenance_and_minimum_physical_standards.html


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    #49
    Rows Grower
    Registered Users Posts: 7,821 ✭✭✭Rows Grower


    emeldc wrote: »
    Have a look at the highlighted sections in post #35 again. If they're not different, then why do they specify that one is min standards for rental accommodation and the other is min standards for local authority tenants/housing.


    I'll pm the inspectors number and you can explain that to him.

    I'd be confident he doesn't need that explained to him.

    "Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."

    Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.



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    #50
    emeldc
    Registered Users Posts: 2,593 ✭✭✭emeldc


    Rows Grower wrote: »
    I'd be confident he doesn't need that explained to him.

    He obviously does if all you think I need to do is change the filter in the hood :pac:


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    #51
    Rows Grower
    Registered Users Posts: 7,821 ✭✭✭Rows Grower


    emeldc wrote: »
    He obviously does if all you think I need to do is change the filter in the hood :pac:

    I just read back and see that your cooker is not on an external wall. Lol.

    "Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."

    Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.



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    #52
    KneonK
    Registered Users Posts: 33 ✭KneonK


    emeldc wrote: »
    I'm not with you. I'm quoting the Minimum Standards for Rented Accommodation in Ireland. What other standards are there?

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/repairs_maintenance_and_minimum_physical_standards.html


    Only regulation 7(1) to 7(4) applies to You, including that the extraction needs to go outside as that is regulation 7(2)(b)

    This part below is from regulation 7(5) of the regulations and does not apply to you. It is relaxed standards for particular situations involving approved housing bodies or where the council is a landlord under the Housing Act 1966 - 2004 (regulation 6 of these regs.)
    I only mentioned this as you had it highlighted in the post you told me to read. I honestly am just trying to help!

    "For dwellings rented from local authorities and approved housing bodies, the relevant requirements are in Article 7 of the Housing (Standards for Rented Houses) Regulations 1993. This Article requires the landlord to provide facilities for:...#"


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    #53
    emeldc
    Registered Users Posts: 2,593 ✭✭✭emeldc


    KneonK wrote: »
    Only regulation 7(1) to 7(4) applies to You, including that the extraction needs to go outside as that is regulation 7(2)(b)

    This part below is from regulation 7(5) of the regulations and does not apply to you. It is relaxed standards for particular situations involving approved housing bodies or where the council is a landlord under the Housing Act 1966 - 2004 (regulation 6 of these regs.)
    I only mentioned this as you had it highlighted in the post you told me to read. I honestly am just trying to help!

    "For dwellings rented from local authorities and approved housing bodies, the relevant requirements are in Article 7 of the Housing (Standards for Rented Houses) Regulations 1993. This Article requires the landlord to provide facilities for:...#"

    I know you're trying to help but I can't see how you are reading this properly. The above highlighted bit is the bit they want me to rectify as my cooker hood is not on an outside wall. If it was a private tenant the regs say that a Cooker hood or extractor fan will suffice. The hood does not necessarily have to be on an outside wall. I'm going to bow out of the thread now because I can't explain it any better. If the inspector gets back to me I'll update with his findings.


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    #54
    KneonK
    Registered Users Posts: 33 ✭KneonK


    emeldc wrote: »
    I know you're trying to help but I can't see how you are reading this properly. The above highlighted bit is the bit they want me to rectify as my cooker hood is not on an outside wall. If it was a private tenant the regs say that a Cooker hood or extractor fan will suffice. The hood does not necessarily have to be on an outside wall. I'm going to bow out of the thread now because I can't explain it any better. If the inspector gets back to me I'll update with his findings.

    Was I not straight forward? I wrote down word for word what it says!

    Regulation 7 (2)(b) of the Housing (Standards for Rented houses) regulations 2017.

    "Suitable facilities for the effective and safe removal of fumes TO THE EXTERNAL AIR by means of a cooker hood or extractor fan."

    That's the reg for all tenancies HAP or Private. It's written like that black and white. Not special for HAP. I am sitting here with the actual regulations printed in front of me. Private rental will need the fumes to go outside too! 😂


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    #55
    Rows Grower
    Registered Users Posts: 7,821 ✭✭✭Rows Grower


    emeldc wrote: »
    I know you're trying to help but I can't see how you are reading this properly. The above highlighted bit is the bit they want me to rectify as my cooker hood is not on an outside wall. If it was a private tenant the regs say that a Cooker hood or extractor fan will suffice. The hood does not necessarily have to be on an outside wall. I'm going to bow out of the thread now because I can't explain it any better. If the inspector gets back to me I'll update with his findings.

    In the name of God above in heaven how could a cooker hood that is not vented to the outside pass any inspection by anyone?

    Where do the fumes go?

    Do you seriously think a cooker hood recycling fumes into the room is good enough for someone renting a property in this day and age?

    Some people are just not meant to be landlords.

    "Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."

    Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.



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    #56
    emeldc
    Registered Users Posts: 2,593 ✭✭✭emeldc


    Rows Grower wrote: »
    In the name of God above in heaven how could a cooker hood that is not vented to the outside pass any inspection by anyone?

    Where do the fumes go?

    Do you seriously think a cooker hood recycling fumes into the room is good enough for someone renting a property in this day and age?

    Some people are just not meant to be landlords.

    That a bit unfair. I didn't build the place or any any of the other 50 that are here and they all complied with building regulations at the time. It's an open plan kitchen come dining room with plenty of ventilation. It's not like anyone is going to smother!


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    #57
    mrslancaster
    Registered Users Posts: 1,761 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    Jimbob1977 wrote: »
    ...

    A Prohibtion Notice would be the ultimate sanction. You wouldn't be able to let again under HAP.

    If another HAP tenant wanted to rent the property in that situation, would the LL be ok to say sorry but the council will not approve it for HAP tenants? Where would that leave a LL as they are not allowed to refuse a HAP tenant?


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    #58
    KneonK
    Registered Users Posts: 33 ✭KneonK


    mrslancaster wrote: »
    If another HAP tenant wanted to rent the property in that situation, would the LL be ok to say sorry but the council will not approve it for HAP tenants? Where would that leave a LL as they are not allowed to refuse a HAP tenant?

    Once again the regs in this case are for all rented accommodation, not just HAP.

    A prohibition notice means the property by law can not be rented to anybody. Also a prohibition notice comes with a much higher risk of prosecution by the council.


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    #59
    ImARebel
    Registered Users Posts: 793 ✭✭✭ImARebel


    Rows Grower wrote: »
    In the name of God above in heaven how could a cooker hood that is not vented to the outside pass any inspection by anyone?

    Where do the fumes go?

    Do you seriously think a cooker hood recycling fumes into the room is good enough for someone renting a property in this day and age?

    Some people are just not meant to be landlords.


    We bought a house, went to put in a new extractor. Realised that all it was doing for 10 years was making noise. It wasn't connected to a hose therefore not connected to the outside

    Some people are just not meant to be builders

    AND in our rental apartment we found the builders had sealed the extractor on the roof with masking tape! Yes you read that right

    Some people are definitely not meant to be builders!


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    #60
    Askthe EA
    Registered Users Posts: 724 ✭✭✭Askthe EA


    Rows Grower wrote: »
    In the name of God above in heaven how could a cooker hood that is not vented to the outside pass any inspection by anyone?

    Where do the fumes go?

    /QUOTE]

    They're called re circulation extractors.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/interiors/choosing-the-right-extractor-for-the-heart-of-your-home-1.2855073


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    #61
    Old diesel
    Registered Users Posts: 5,786 ✭✭✭Old diesel


    KneonK wrote: »
    Once again the regs in this case are for all rented accommodation, not just HAP.

    A prohibition notice means the property by law can not be rented to anybody. Also a prohibition notice comes with a much higher risk of prosecution by the council.

    Why are people who've had the inspections done all arriving at the conclusion that their property got a more stringent inspection because their property has HAP tenants.

    It's a problem that needs addressing because.....

    1) the perception of HAP requiring "impossible" standards is a turn off for landlords.

    2) where standards are required - then clarity as to why is needed for landlords. Landlords sometimes feel that the house "been failed for HAP" is better then the one they live in themselves. It's easier to accept a genuine need to upgrade a property where clear reasons are offered.


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