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Neighbour has issue with boundary wall I built

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    #62
    01Surveyor
    Registered Users Posts: 114 ✭✭01Surveyor


    This thread perfectly represents the understandable public confusion about property boundaries and party walls in Ireland. Here are some facts which may help but wont solve the OP's problems I'm afraid;

    There is no conclusive statutory record of property boundaries in Ireland

    Land Registry maps are non conclusive, you can scale them if you like, but scaling is inaccurate at the best of times and an exercise in futility at 1:500. The margin for error on Land registry compliant maps is +/- 500mm

    The Land Reform and Conveyancing Act 2009 addresses work to Party walls and structures - unfortunately the rights it identifies are all subject to there being no dispute and it effectively sets down the processes for haveing a row ending ultimately in a court ruling.

    Some property deeds will have a dimensioned map attached, or the narrative will contain a description of the boundaries with stated dimensions. These are sometimes helpful but with older properties the landmarks on which dimensions rely may no longer exist.

    Not very helpful Im afraid but thats the reality in Ireland. Despite the technology being capable of precisely locating points on the earths surface we have a land registry system which is archaic and serves to fuel dispute not resolve it.
    In my experience boundary disputes are best resolved by pragmatic agreement, but in reality this rarely happens.
    I have only ever seen a boundary dispute resolved once by agreement and this was when one of the land owners turned up on site carrying a shotgun, minds were concentrated, and agreement quickly reached.....and lasts to this day. Im not suggesting this is the way to agree matters but sometimes it takes something dramatic to get people to behave sensibly and stop arguing about 'an inch' here or there.


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    #63
    mickdw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,260 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    01Surveyor wrote: »
    This thread perfectly represents the understandable public confusion about property boundaries and party walls in Ireland. Here are some facts which may help but wont solve the OP's problems I'm afraid;

    There is no conclusive statutory record of property boundaries in Ireland

    Land Registry maps are non conclusive, you can scale them if you like, but scaling is inaccurate at the best of times and an exercise in futility at 1:500. The margin for error on Land registry compliant maps is +/- 500mm

    The Land Reform and Conveyancing Act 2009 addresses work to Party walls and structures - unfortunately the rights it identifies are all subject to there being no dispute and it effectively sets down the processes for haveing a row ending ultimately in a court ruling.

    Some property deeds will have a dimensioned map attached, or the narrative will contain a description of the boundaries with stated dimensions. These are sometimes helpful but with older properties the landmarks on which dimensions rely may no longer exist.

    Not very helpful Im afraid but thats the reality in Ireland. Despite the technology being capable of precisely locating points on the earths surface we have a land registry system which is archaic and serves to fuel dispute not resolve it.
    In my experience boundary disputes are best resolved by pragmatic agreement, but in reality this rarely happens.
    I have only ever seen a boundary dispute resolved once by agreement and this was when one of the land owners turned up on site carrying a shotgun, minds were concentrated, and agreement quickly reached.....and lasts to this day. Im not suggesting this is the way to agree matters but sometimes it takes something dramatic to get people to behave sensibly and stop arguing about 'an inch' here or there.
    Surely the presence and position of 2 original steel posts from the original boundary construction would carry the most weight here. If they formed the established boundary over numerous years and was the boundary used throughout the housing estate, it woild be hard to dispute.


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    #64
    01Surveyor
    Registered Users Posts: 114 ✭✭01Surveyor


    mickdw wrote: »
    Surely the presence and position of 2 original steel posts from the original boundary construction would carry the most weight here. If they formed the established boundary over numerous years and was the boundary used throughout the housing estate, it would be hard to dispute.

    You would think so but unless it can be established conclusively that the posts are in their original position then their relevance is open to challenge and this happens regularly.
    The only reference points that cannot be challenged are accurately generated and registered co-ordinates (digital steel posts effectively), it's so simple to do its hard to understand why we still rely on paper maps and the courts to resolve boundary matters.


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    #65
    Vikings
    Registered Users Posts: 2,788 ✭✭✭Vikings


    6 pages of varying advice but few have actually read what was posted.

    The neighbour complained that the wall was built with the pillars facing his property.

    OP has since clarified there was previously a fence in the same location the wall was built.

    The neighbour hasn't complained about the placement of the wall or intimated it is on his property. Just that he wasn't consulted and has to look at the unsightly pillars.

    The wall has been built. (Months ago)

    Sit back, apologise for the pillar placement if you so wish, or wait and see does the neighbour have any additional complaints.


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    #66
    Pkiernan
    Registered Users Posts: 4,315 ✭✭✭Pkiernan


    If you want to appease this jackass neighbour you could offer to put up some wood panelling on his side so he doesn't gave to suffer the endless tragedy of seeing some piers.


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    #67
    01Surveyor
    Registered Users Posts: 114 ✭✭01Surveyor


    Vikings wrote: »
    6 pages of varying advice but few have actually read what was posted.

    The neighbour complained that the wall was built with the pillars facing his property.

    OP has since clarified there was previously a fence in the same location the wall was built.

    The neighbour hasn't complained about the placement of the wall or intimated it is on his property. Just that he wasn't consulted and has to look at the unsightly pillars.

    The wall has been built. (Months ago)

    Sit back, apologise for the pillar placement if you so wish, or wait and see does the neighbour have any additional complaints.

    Good advice especially if no one is making an issue of the position of the wall vis a vis the property boundary.

    Traditionally it is agreed that the centre line of a party (boundary) wall is located on the agreed boundary line so that the piers are on one side of the boundary line and the wall on the other. I have seen this agreed by the toss of a coin. Assuming a 102.5mm wall with 215mm piers, whoever takes the piers gets 112.5mm of extra garden (between the piers) and the the other gets a nice flat continuous wall.

    Allways a good idea to agree and place on record ownership of the wall.


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    #68
    JustAThought
    Registered Users Posts: 5,323 ✭✭✭JustAThought


    OP - I’d say as the wall is built a few months and he did not complain as it was being built or after for a long time after, that your neighbour is more generally ticked off at your lack of consideration than the actual wall. I’d say the noisy bloody flapping bag was the trigger.

    As someone said, a bottle of wine and chocs and a knock on the door would most likely be the best way to resolve it - not maps and threats of litigation. I might also suggest that as he has had an uninterrupted grassy view of both gardens before your wall was built you might make a suggestion of a few climbers or shrubs for his side of the wall if he wants - that way they can grow and provide flowers or greenery if he likes or grow clematis or climbing roses or raspberry canes up the wall if they like - make a nice feature of it and a shield from the wind/ privacy/ add to the security of both houses etc.


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    #69
    irelandrover
    Registered Users Posts: 3,683 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    I don't think the position of the wall is really an issue. It's more likely your lack of communication. You built a wall partly on his property without talking to him, you hung something to make noise without talking to him, since you had a builder in you were likely done other work and I'm assuming you didn't tell him.

    Just call round, apologise for your lack of consideration and warn him in future.


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    #70
    Meeoow
    Registered Users Posts: 620 ✭✭✭Meeoow


    stevek93 wrote: »
    Seems unreasonable for the non paying neighbour to have the nice side of the wall.
    Its crap, I have the misery of manoovering the lawnmower around the tufts, while he has a nice continuous line.
    But he was renting the house out, plus he was from Cavan, so was never going to contribute.


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    #71
    Mr_Muffin
    Registered Users Posts: 917 ✭✭✭Mr_Muffin


    A wall requires a foundation which should be greater in width that the wall itself. He didn't object when the foundation was being poured? Or was the foundation poured soley in your garden?


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    #72
    stevek93
    Registered Users Posts: 3,088 ✭✭✭stevek93


    Mr_Muffin wrote: »
    A wall requires a foundation which should be greater in width that the wall itself. He didn't object when the foundation was being poured?

    No it took a whole day to dig the foundation and another day to pour it and 3rd day to start building the wall why he didn’t say boo then and only now 3 months later I don’t understand.


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    #73
    stevek93
    Registered Users Posts: 3,088 ✭✭✭stevek93


    Pkiernan wrote: »
    If you want to appease this jackass neighbour you could offer to put up some wood panelling on his side so he doesn't gave to suffer the endless tragedy of seeing some piers.

    There is over grown everything in the space on his side so I doubt that would please him he doesn’t use the garden, it seems to me that as others said I upset him with the bag hanging out of my washing line and he wanted to continue with moaning about the wall.


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    #74
    funkey_monkey
    Registered Users Posts: 8,053 ✭✭✭funkey_monkey


    Can you not remove the pillars, concrete in some galvanised H irons and build into the web of the H iron. That way the wall is secure and no one has a pillar?


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    #75
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 7,712 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I’d remove the pillars whatever way I could, add another few feet to the height and forget about the neighbour. I definitely don’t subscribe to this thinking that you must be friendly with the neighbours at all costs.


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    #76
    Caranica
    Registered Users Posts: 10,001 ✭✭✭✭Caranica


    ReginaldSmythV wrote: »
    I’d remove the pillars whatever way I could, add another few feet to the height and forget about the neighbour. I definitely don’t subscribe to this thinking that you must be friendly with the neighbours at all costs.

    Don't forget that walls over a certain height need planning permission


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    #77
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 7,712 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Caranica wrote: »
    Don't forget that walls over a certain height need planning permission

    You can bet he won’t get that anyway by the sounds of it.


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    #78
    Naos
    Registered Users Posts: 4,728 ✭✭✭Naos


    stevek93 wrote: »
    No it took a whole day to dig the foundation and another day to pour it and 3rd day to start building the wall why he didn’t say boo then and only now 3 months later I don’t understand.

    In the three months between the wall being built and him stating the issue recently, did you see or speak with him at all?


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    #79
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,832 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    01Surveyor wrote: »
    This thread perfectly represents the understandable public confusion about property boundaries and party walls in Ireland. Here are some facts which may help but wont solve the OP's problems I'm afraid;

    There is no conclusive statutory record of property boundaries in Ireland

    Land Registry maps are non conclusive, you can scale them if you like, but scaling is inaccurate at the best of times and an exercise in futility at 1:500. The margin for error on Land registry compliant maps is +/- 500mm

    The Land Reform and Conveyancing Act 2009 addresses work to Party walls and structures - unfortunately the rights it identifies are all subject to there being no dispute and it effectively sets down the processes for haveing a row ending ultimately in a court ruling.

    Some property deeds will have a dimensioned map attached, or the narrative will contain a description of the boundaries with stated dimensions. These are sometimes helpful but with older properties the landmarks on which dimensions rely may no longer exist.

    Not very helpful Im afraid but thats the reality in Ireland. Despite the technology being capable of precisely locating points on the earths surface we have a land registry system which is archaic and serves to fuel dispute not resolve it.
    In my experience boundary disputes are best resolved by pragmatic agreement, but in reality this rarely happens.
    I have only ever seen a boundary dispute resolved once by agreement and this was when one of the land owners turned up on site carrying a shotgun, minds were concentrated, and agreement quickly reached.....and lasts to this day. Im not suggesting this is the way to agree matters but sometimes it takes something dramatic to get people to behave sensibly and stop arguing about 'an inch' here or there.


    For what it is worth, I was recently involved in a dispute over boundaries between two old houses.
    Basically the legal advice was the same as above with the extra advice that a judge will invariably decide based on what the situation was before a dispute/question arose.

    I.E. if the properties had a boundary that was undisputed then that is how it should stay unless maps show something definitively different. Somebody suddenly disputing a boundary because of a change of ownership would therefore be on dodgy ground going to court. Solicitor had a name for it
    that I can't quite remember, if I do I will post it.


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    #80
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 14,344 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Meeoow wrote: »
    Its crap, I have the misery of manoovering the lawnmower around the tufts, while he has a nice continuous line.
    But he was renting the house out, plus he was from Cavan, so was never going to contribute.




    If he was renting it out, and you really wanted the 'nice side', then you should have put the pillars on his side. If he was renting it, he wouldn't have cared, and likely wouldn't have even noticed.


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    #81
    stevek93
    Registered Users Posts: 3,088 ✭✭✭stevek93


    Hi all, just I suppose to revisit this as this is still a ongoing situation.

    I have since had a land surveyor out and found out the wall is in my garden also the pillars are built in my garden it is built before the boundary or mot on the boundary.

    The issue I have is now the neighbour still thinks it is in his garden, he is coming out with a hammer occasionally hitting it. The neighbour who has the issue is not in fact the property owner also. Should I send a letter to the owner of the house from the land surveyor mentioning our findings? Also would it be wise to get the Gardaí involved for criminal damage?


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    #82
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,435 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    stevek93 wrote: »
    Hi all, just I suppose to revisit this as this is still a ongoing situation.

    I have since had a land surveyor out and found out the wall is in my garden also the pillars are built in my garden it is built before the boundary or mot on the boundary.

    The issue I have is now the neighbour still thinks it is in his garden, he is coming out with a hammer occasionally hitting it. The neighbour who has the issue is not in fact the property owner also. Should I send a letter to the owner of the house from the land surveyor mentioning our findings? Also would it be wise to get the Gardaí involved for criminal damage?

    Send registered letter to the landlord and call the Gardai every time he hits the wall. It’s the only way. Tell them he has a hammer in hand and you don’t know what he will do if he gets into your property.

    You’ll need all this if it every goes to the RTB anyhow so no harm starting early.


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    #83
    javaboy
    Registered Users Posts: 15,094 ✭✭✭✭javaboy


    stevek93 wrote: »
    Hi all, just I suppose to revisit this as this is still a ongoing situation.

    I have since had a land surveyor out and found out the wall is in my garden also the pillars are built in my garden it is built before the boundary or mot on the boundary.

    The issue I have is now the neighbour still thinks it is in his garden, he is coming out with a hammer occasionally hitting it. The neighbour who has the issue is not in fact the property owner also. Should I send a letter to the owner of the house from the land surveyor mentioning our findings? Also would it be wise to get the Gardaí involved for criminal damage?

    Not taking your neighbour‘s side here because the hammer stuff just sounds weird but... I’d be a little annoyed if you had unilaterally put a non-uniform finish on my side, even if the entire wall is on your property.
    It’s a nuisance mowing around those pillars for example and I’ve seen kids run into the edge of them etc.
    You also cut off your own access to the thin strips of your land between the pillars.


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    #84
    stevek93
    Registered Users Posts: 3,088 ✭✭✭stevek93


    Gumbo wrote: »
    Send registered letter to the landlord and call the Gardai every time he hits the wall. It’s the only way. Tell them he has a hammer in hand and you don’t know what he will do if he gets into your property.

    You’ll need all this if it every goes to the RTB anyhow so no harm starting early.

    Great thanks. May I ask how would the RTB come into it? As far as I am aware it is only for the rental sector?


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    #85
    stevek93
    Registered Users Posts: 3,088 ✭✭✭stevek93


    javaboy wrote: »
    Not taking your neighbour‘s side here because the hammer stuff just sounds weird but... I’d be a little annoyed if you had unilaterally put a non-uniform finish on my side, even if the entire wall is on your property.
    It’s a nuisance mowing around those pillars for example and I’ve seen kids run into the edge of them etc.
    You also cut off your own access to the thin strips of your land between the pillars.

    Why should I have the nuisance of mowing around the pillars? A garden trimmer would suffice to cut around the pillars. On the neighbours side of the garden is over grown with weeds ivory and vines it is like a jungle there is no grass to cut, it was an eye sore before the wall was erected.


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    #86
    sReq | uTeK
    Registered Users Posts: 5,999 ✭✭✭sReq | uTeK


    antix80 wrote: »
    It's long been considered good etiquette to put the rough side of the wall or fence facing your own property.
    Very rude of you not to.
    However once the structure doesn't extend onto his land there's nothing he can do about it.
    So, you're a terrible human being and very inconsiderate but legally you should be fine.

    Bollix. op just stated the pillars are on the his neighbours side. I mean not only did they not have the decency to ask or get a surveyor they didnt even put the unappealing part on his side. If I was the neighbour I'd take a sledgehammer to it.

    The fact they even created a thread asking of this is a problem shows how little the OP thinks about other people.


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    #87
    javaboy
    Registered Users Posts: 15,094 ✭✭✭✭javaboy


    stevek93 wrote: »
    Why should I have the nuisance of mowing around the pillars? A garden trimmer would suffice to cut around the pillars. On the neighbours side of the garden is over grown with weeds ivory and vines it is like a jungle there is no grass to cut, it was an eye sore before the wall was erected.

    Why should your neighbour have the nuisance of mowing around the pillars?

    Yeah in fairness, given the state of the garden, it doesn’t sound like he has much to complain about. My point is more hypothetical I guess.


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    #88
    enricoh
    Registered Users Posts: 4,824 ✭✭✭enricoh


    So the guy kicking up a fuss is a tenant. Ignore him, I'd say the landlord is delighted getting a free wall.
    Record him hitting the wall from the upstairs bedroom and send it to the landlord, the landlord will soften his cough


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    #89
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    javaboy wrote: »
    Not taking your neighbour‘s side here because the hammer stuff just sounds weird but... I’d be a little annoyed if you had unilaterally put a non-uniform finish on my side, even if the entire wall is on your property.
    It’s a nuisance mowing around those pillars for example and I’ve seen kids run into the edge of them etc.
    You also cut off your own access to the thin strips of your land between the pillars.

    He doesn't own the property so who cares tbh


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    #90
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    sReq | uTeK wrote: »
    Bollix. op just stated the pillars are on the his neighbours side. I mean not only did they not have the decency to ask or get a surveyor they didnt even put the unappealing part on his side. If I was the neighbour I'd take a sledgehammer to it.

    The fact they even created a thread asking of this is a problem shows how little the OP thinks about other people.

    Who cares, it's a rental, the man causing damage has no right to do so owner or renter.
    He is renting, the wall is on the op land so he can do what he likes with it and also can go to the legal height too.
    He could then plant a hedge or trees and do what he likes.

    The LL I'd say is delighted because he won't have had to spend cent.


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    #91
    stevek93
    Registered Users Posts: 3,088 ✭✭✭stevek93


    sReq | uTeK wrote: »
    Bollix. op just stated the pillars are on the his neighbours side. I mean not only did they not have the decency to ask or get a surveyor they didnt even put the unappealing part on his side. If I was the neighbour I'd take a sledgehammer to it.

    The fact they even created a thread asking of this is a problem shows how little the OP thinks about other people.

    I am not here to please my neighbour with a nice wall, if a nice wall is required then the neighbour can erect one in their garden.

    To answer your sledgehammer comment if that was to happen it would be criminal damage and cost of building a new wall would be retrieved from the neighbour. You don’t have the right to damage or destroy someone else’s property cause you don’t like the look of it.


This discussion has been closed.
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