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Light Rail for Cork gets the go-ahead...

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Comments

  • #2
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,344 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Very welcome, but the construction is dependent on density improving along the corridor.

    The vague corridor is known now, so it's up to the City Council to start driving on development along the corridor and making appropriate provisions.

    We've seen renders for 3,100 or so apartments at the end of Centre Park Road recently which is the type of development we need to be seeing en masse to make this a success.

    In rail terms, I hope this uses the old Blackrock & Passage line from Blackrock to Mahon Point. There should be enough space to accomodate both the Greenway and the tram but it will require some bridge reconstructions (Skehard Road for one).


  • #3
    River Suir
    Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭River Suir


    marno21 wrote: »
    Very welcome, but the construction is dependent on density improving along the corridor.

    The vague corridor is known now, so it's up to the City Council to start driving on development along the corridor and making appropriate provisions.

    We've seen renders for 3,100 or so apartments at the end of Centre Park Road recently which is the type of development we need to be seeing en masse to make this a success.

    In rail terms, I hope this uses the old Blackrock & Passage line from Blackrock to Mahon Point. There should be enough space to accomodate both the Greenway and the tram but it will require some bridge reconstructions (Skehard Road for one).

    Surely the answer is to construct the line first and drive development along the corridor as a matter of policy?


  • #4
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 15,731 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    River Suir wrote: »
    Surely the answer is to construct the line first and drive development along the corridor as a matter of policy?

    No this is Ireland where we do things arseways.


  • #5
    Itssoeasy
    Registered Users Posts: 39,437 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    marno21 wrote: »
    Very welcome, but the construction is dependent on density improving along the corridor.

    The vague corridor is known now, so it's up to the City Council to start driving on development along the corridor and making appropriate provisions.

    We've seen renders for 3,100 or so apartments at the end of Centre Park Road recently which is the type of development we need to be seeing en masse to make this a success.

    In rail terms, I hope this uses the old Blackrock & Passage line from Blackrock to Mahon Point. There should be enough space to accomodate both the Greenway and the tram but it will require some bridge reconstructions (Skehard Road for one).
    It's a no brainer and the skehard road and maybe the one that crosses where the old blackrock station but it's not as low as skehard road.


  • #6
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 15,731 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Itssoeasy wrote: »
    It's a no brainer and the skehard road and maybe the one that crosses where the old blackrock station but it's not as low as skehard road.

    Hopefully a concerned walkers and cyclists NIMBY group doesn't spring up.


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  • #7
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 12,956 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    whisky_galore wrote: »
    Hopefully a concerned walkers and cyclists NIMBY group doesn't spring up.

    Such as the Lee to Youghal via Courtmacsherry Ramblers Association or the Cork Railpath Accessability Project?


  • #8
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 15,731 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Losty Dublin wrote: »
    Such as the Lee to Youghal via Courtmacsherry Ramblers Association or the Cork Railpath Accessability Project?

    Any of those kind of spandex clad hoors, yes.


  • #9
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,400 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Itssoeasy wrote: »
    It's a no brainer and the skehard road and maybe the one that crosses where the old blackrock station but it's not as low as skehard road.

    Something being a no brainer has never been a good reason for doing something, the route should be optimum for its purpose, not just the obvious or easy option. On a billion euro project these consultants will be paid enough to use their brains.


  • #10
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    Has any consideration been given to using the greenway for heavy rail. It's the only realistic routing for any future routes (if any) to get a rail service out to Carrigaline / Ringaskiddy and West Cork from Kent.


  • #11
    Itssoeasy
    Registered Users Posts: 39,437 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    TheChizler wrote: »
    Something being a no brainer has never been a good reason for doing something, the route should be optimum for its purpose, not just the obvious or easy option. On a billion euro project these consultants will be paid enough to use their brains.

    Never been a good reason ? I disagree that at times it actually is the way to go. The Luas in Dublin used the old railway line that went to broadstone. That was a great idea because you were using a former heavy rail alignment for light rail. The common factor there is rail. The old blackrock railway line is one of if not the only thing of it's kind within cork city. Surely it's more cost effective to use an alignment that's already there and passes by Mahon point and other places of work in that area. It makes sense.


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  • #12
    Itssoeasy
    Registered Users Posts: 39,437 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    IE 222 wrote: »
    Has any consideration been given to using the greenway for heavy rail. It's the only realistic routing for any future routes (if any) to get a rail service out to Carrigaline / Ringaskiddy and West Cork from Kent.

    Well west cork would be a stretch(but not impossible ) given how much of the line is gone although the viaduct is still there and the embankments are still there by that viaduct as is that tunnel(can't remember it) but there are bits that would need a bit of creative thinking.


  • #13
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,344 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Itssoeasy wrote: »
    Well west cork would be a stretch(but not impossible ) given how much of the line is gone although the viaduct is still there and the embankments are still there by that viaduct as is that tunnel(can't remember it) but there are bits that would need a bit of creative thinking.
    There's no path into the city centre. The N27 South City Link Road occupies the trackbed from the Kinsale Road Roundabout to Albert Quay, the old railway office there is part of the Webworks development and the railway station itself is now occupied by the Elysian.

    The trackbed is mostly usable from the Kinsale Road Roundabout - it would be useful as a greenway alright.


  • #14
    Itssoeasy
    Registered Users Posts: 39,437 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    marno21 wrote: »
    There's no path into the city centre. The N27 South City Link Road occupies the trackbed from the Kinsale Road Roundabout to Albert Quay, the old railway office there is part of the Webworks development and the railway station itself is now occupied by the Elysian.

    The trackbed is mostly usable from the Kinsale Road Roundabout - it would be useful as a greenway alright.

    I know it's gone. I was referring to IE222's comment about using the old blackrock and passage railway line as a way of getting a route from the city to west cork. I wasn't in any way suggesting the old west cork railway would be able to use its old route.

    A Green way ? Is that the answer to everything nowadays ? Maybe the west cork railway old alignment might be but we have the carry on between youghal and Midleton which has viability to be reconnected to the national network(at some point) and we are digging it up for a greenway.


  • #15
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    Yeah I was referring to the Blackrock greenway for a future heavy rail line to Carrigaline ect with possibly a branch breaking off at Thornberry Heights building a new line through the back off Roachestown, Maryborough, Donnybrook, Airport, and then continue onto either West Cork or Ballincollig/Bishopstown.

    Obviously it would require a bridge over the Lee into Kent.

    Using the greenway for Luas would bring it away from the catchment areas as well.


  • #16
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,400 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Itssoeasy wrote: »
    Never been a good reason ? I disagree that at times it actually is the way to go. The Luas in Dublin used the old railway line that went to broadstone. That was a great idea because you were using a former heavy rail alignment for light rail. The common factor there is rail. The old blackrock railway line is one of if not the only thing of it's kind within cork city. Surely it's more cost effective to use an alignment that's already there and passes by Mahon point and other places of work in that area. It makes sense.

    I'm just saying if built there for cheap but it's less accessible to the local population than alternatives then it would be rather poor value for money. Are people going to make the journey to use it.


  • #17
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    IE 222 wrote: »
    Has any consideration been given to using the greenway for heavy rail. It's the only realistic routing for any future routes (if any) to get a rail service out to Carrigaline / Ringaskiddy and West Cork from Kent.
    I would rate the chances of a heavy/mainline/1600mm route south of the river as near zero and on the Passage Route as actually zero. Why bother? The Port of Cork seems to have decided that railfreight will not move the needle on the success of its operations and even if it's wrong on that they can move that traffic over to Marino Point. So if railfreight isn't the goal, a light rail solution can move the same number of people, if not more, as a commuter service into town than to be a feed to/from the national network and be somewhat more sympathetic to the localities it goes through in respect of mode separation.


  • #18
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    TheChizler wrote: »
    I'm just saying if built there for cheap but it's less accessible to the local population than alternatives then it would be rather poor value for money. Are people going to make the journey to use it.

    I'd agree with this motion. The line runs away from the area to be served and it's on the wrong side of the city. The greenway would naturally suit heavy rail with the first stop in Mahon or maybe a stop for the marquee and Páirc Uí Chaoimh.


  • #19
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    dowlingm wrote: »
    I would rate the chances of a heavy/mainline/1600mm route south of the river as near zero and on the Passage Route as actually zero. Why bother? The Port of Cork seems to have decided that railfreight will not move the needle on the success of its operations and even if it's wrong on that they can move that traffic over to Marino Point. So if railfreight isn't the goal, a light rail solution can move the same number of people, if not more, as a commuter service into town than to be a feed to/from the national network and be somewhat more sympathetic to the localities it goes through in respect of mode separation.

    I'd agree the likelihood of such a line are slim to none but it's this logic that needs to shift. There are many large manufacturing companies in the area also. Personally I think it might be a little far fetched for a light rail network. Carrigaline is going to continue to grow and no doubt other areas will also in years to come.


  • #20
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    IE 222 wrote: »
    I'd agree the likelihood of such a line are slim to none but it's this logic that needs to shift. There are many large manufacturing companies in the area also. Personally I think it might be a little far fetched for a light rail network. Carrigaline is going to continue to grow and no doubt other areas will also in years to come.
    far fetched how? How is it more far fetched than 1600mm, with high platforms and elevators, millions for automating level crossings, and having to wait to enter signal blocks, and god knows what sort of approach to Kent?

    It can’t be capacity because Ottawa is running 1500V 2x50m Citadis which likely compares well to what Cobh and Midleton get from their 2600s, even if you restricted service to their 4/hr. It can’t be speed because Citadis can do 110km/h and a glance at the route will tell the likelihood of a rail vehicle needing any more is unlikely. It can’t be distance - 20km Cork-Passage-Carrigaline is peanuts. So apart from “but the shots of hand me down 29Ks doing 5mph through the City Centre to creep into Kent would be awesome - we would finally have a spectacle again to match Wexford Quay’s” what’s the supposed need here?


  • #21
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    dowlingm wrote: »
    far fetched how? How is it more far fetched than 1600mm, with high platforms and elevators, millions for automating level crossings, and having to wait to enter signal blocks, and god knows what sort of approach to Kent?

    It can’t be capacity because Ottawa is running 1500V 2x50m Citadis which likely compares well to what Cobh and Midleton get from their 2600s, even if you restricted service to their 4/hr. It can’t be speed because Citadis can do 110km/h and a glance at the route will tell the likelihood of a rail vehicle needing any more is unlikely. It can’t be distance - 20km Cork-Passage-Carrigaline is peanuts. So apart from “but the shots of hand me down 29Ks doing 5mph through the City Centre to creep into Kent would be awesome - we would finally have a spectacle again to match Wexford Quay’s” what’s the supposed need here?

    Using light rail on such a routing defeats the purpose and benefits of a light rail system. Other than a cost saving exercise it will offer no extra benefit. I was also mooting heavy rail for other potential lines such as West Cork where light rail is a non runner.

    There all one of costs, given there would likely be less heavy rail stations than light rail I wouldn't expect much of an overall saving in station costs between each mode. I doubt any level crossings would be installed unless absolutely unavoidable. Again new station infrastructure can be built with accessibility in mind to cut down on lifts ect by having an entrance on both platforms. Light rail system would require electrification where such a line could probably do without which in itself is a large saving in comparison. Light rail would also require a new fleet of trams to be purchased where Irish Rail fleet would likely have enough excess to cover this especially if new Darts are been ordered.

    Demand is not going to warrant 5 min or better frequency. Building 20plus kilometres of light rail in the country side as oppose the city centre is pure waste. If spending money on a light rail system it's better to build it within the city limits to maximise its potential and cover where heavy rail will never be an option.

    Approach into Kent should be rather straightforward. Bridge over the Lee with a gradient building up along the river bank.


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  • #22
    TheBoyConor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    I think the T&RS subforum needs a Walter Mitty's Fantasy Railway sticky thread.

    The notion that a new 5'3" mm guage route would be built in Ireland is wishful thinking and that it would be built outside of the Pale, would be in the realm pure fantasy.


  • #23
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    TheBoyConor wrote: »
    I think the T&RS subforum needs a Walter Mitty's Fantasy Railway sticky thread.

    The notion that a new 5'3" mm guage route would be built in Ireland is wishful thinking and that it would be built outside of the Pale, would be in the realm pure fantasy.

    All new rail lines built in this state in the last number of years have been outside the pale.


  • #24
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,600 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    IE 222 wrote: »
    All new rail lines built in this state in the last number of years have been outside the pale.

    Dunboyne, Docklands and PPT reactivation are inside the pale


  • #25
    petronius
    Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭petronius


    The Western Cork Luas line linking CIT and CUH and UCC with the city centre and kent station is logicial
    it would hopefully then the project gain momentum.
    The North South line linking the airport is just a far away dream and I can not see that.
    The kent station to Mahon with a luas on the old heavy rail line seems likely, but if you are using a heavy rail from cobh and midelton and mallow to kent why no electrify them as a Cork Area Rapid Transport (CART)


  • #26
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    L1011 wrote: »
    Dunboyne, Docklands and PPT reactivation are inside the pale

    Dunboyne is part of the Navan line project or a service to Meath at the very least either way Dunboyne is in Meath and so to is most of the line. Hansfield just about falls into Dublin.

    Docklands and PPT wouldn't necessarily be regarded as new lines in my view. Fair enough they recieved new services but I wouldn't go to the extent as classing them as newly bullt railway lines.


  • #27
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,600 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The Pale and Dublin are not the same thing!


  • #28
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    L1011 wrote: »
    The Pale and Dublin are not the same thing!

    I'm aware of that but if you want to refer back to the 12th century I stand corrected but most people would refer to it as Dublin centric term in the modern day when used in such context.


  • #29
    TheBoyConor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    IE 222 wrote: »
    All new rail lines built in this state in the last number of years have been outside the pale.

    What new lines have been built outside the Pale?
    None. The WRC or Midlton is not a new line, it's just reopeneing and derelict line. not the same thing.
    petronius wrote: »
    The Western Cork Luas line linking CIT and CUH and UCC with the city centre and kent station is logicial
    it would hopefully then the project gain momentum.
    .....
    The kent station to Mahon with a luas on the old heavy rail line seems likely, but if you are using a heavy rail from cobh and midelton and mallow to kent why no electrify them as a Cork Area Rapid Transport (CART)

    I don't think the cork Luas will happen. There will be too many objections and if there is any whiff of CPO for people's gardens, then it is a dead duck.


    As for the heavy rail between Kent and Mahon? Lol. Have you got a temperature? That is the stuff of a fevered dream.
    If you are talking about it going out the passage railway then that is a non runner as it is a greenway now, a hugely popular amenity in fact that is being refurbished and enhanced soon.


  • #30
    River Suir
    Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭River Suir


    TheBoyConor wrote: »
    What new lines have been built outside the Pale?
    None. The WRC or Midlton is not a new line, it's just reopeneing and derelict line. not the same thing.



    I don't think the cork Luas will happen. There will be too many objections and if there is any whiff of CPO for people's gardens, then it is a dead duck.


    As for the heavy rail between Kent and Mahon? Lol. Have you got a temperature? That is the stuff of a fevered dream.
    If you are talking about it going out the passage railway then that is a non runner as it is a greenway now, a hugely popular amenity in fact that is being refurbished and enhanced soon.

    Proving the point that once a railway is buried under a greenway it will NEVER come back as a railway.


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  • #31
    TheBoyConor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    More people use that greenway on a daily basis than what would use it if there was a train there.
    Same can be said of the Dungarvan - Waterford section. Throngs on people use it every day.

    If metro north or any other significant expansion can't get going in Dublin with it's big dense population, and eternal traffic chaos and commuters driving up and down from Laois, then what chance north of zero has any project down de cunthry got?

    The fact that no railways of any significance have been built in the last 100 years kind of prooves that point. If it has not changed in 100 years, then why should we believe things will suddenly change?


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