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Dirtbike trail use legality’s

2

Comments

  • #32
    iwillhtfu
    Registered Users Posts: 6,367 ✭✭✭iwillhtfu


    Emmersonn wrote: »
    For !!!!!!! sake lighten up and head off to the cycling forum :rolleyes: Us motorcyclists understand exactly the dangers of our mode of transport both to ourselves and others.

    Yet there's a small minority that do know as you say but couldn't give a **** so unfortunately they have to legislate for the assholes that couldn't give a **** and this affects everyone. This isn't rocket science :rolleyes:


  • #33
    Emmersonn
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,128 ✭✭✭Emmersonn


    iwillhtfu wrote: »
    Yet there's a small minority that do know as you say but couldn't give a **** so unfortunately they have to legislate for the assholes that couldn't give a **** and this affects everyone. This isn't rocket science :rolleyes:
    Legislation is not the answer to as$holes conduct. As€holes are in all walks of life and will continue to flaunt rules. Even today there are groups of more than 4 people not observing social distancing.


  • #34
    iwillhtfu
    Registered Users Posts: 6,367 ✭✭✭iwillhtfu


    Emmersonn wrote: »
    Legislation is not the answer to as$holes conduct. As€holes are in all walks of life and will continue to flaunt rules. Even today there are groups of more than 4 people not observing social distancing.

    There is no alternative to be fair. As you rightly point out they can't police social distancing so no chance of policing randomers up in the mountains. If they wanted to catch lads though pic any mountain drive at the weekend and drive till you see a couple of vans often with random stickers and wait. Thankfully they aren't that eager though.


  • #35
    TheBoyConor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    Markcheese wrote: »
    I assume you'd need planning if your going to charge for trail use , not sure if a club would need it ..,ironically you'd probably need really good fencing to keep pedestrians out ..
    The noise would drive me nuts if I lived near one though ...
    Are there electric trail bikes available ??

    Of course a club would need planning permission. I don't know why you'd think they wouldn't?

    They would have to buy or lease land.

    A planning application would absolutely be needed. that would need:
    1.An engineer to do preliminary design of the whole layout, prepare the planning maps, drawings, forms etc.
    2. Depending on location and scale, an ecologist to prepare the relevant environmental assessments and reports
    3. given the nature of the facility, you'd probably have to include measures to limit erosion, noise, drainage, managing silt laden run off, measures to handle any fuel spill or fires.

    Then if you get planning, you'd have to a detailed design which would have to
    cover any conditions of the planning and all the usual things.

    You'd have to fence off the site securely for sure.. You can't just have random people swanning in and out of a place like this when these death traps are flying around.

    Then when you have all that you'd have get your insurance. Well really you should investigate get that in advance of getting planning because without it you are goosed. For to get insurance you'd probably have to satisfy very particular arrangements around fire safety, supervision, training and first aid.

    And there will be objections. About noise, traffic to/from the track, environmental issues, and about concerns about antisocial behaviour and road safety in the vicinity. Nobody is going to want to live near one of these things. And going by the cavalier maverick attitudes of some on here, I wouldn't blame them.

    It would definitely be an uphill and very expensive project to take on for a hobby.


  • #36
    Mjolnir
    Registered Users Posts: 985 ✭✭✭Mjolnir


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    a great idea but insurance is a disaster, and is getting worse, the legal mountain biking world is slowly shutting down because of this, which will more than likely force activities more so into the illegal world

    Insurance would be a virtual non runner for motorbikes, look at how hard it is for licenced premises and creche ect to get insurance. You wouldn't believe the cost of nightclubs insurance if I told you.
    Ultimately liability for a civil action will lay with the owner.
    There's zero chance the government will open themselves up to such liability, and frankly you'd want to be slightly touched in the head to consider it as a viable business.


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  • #37
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,797 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Mjolnir wrote: »
    Insurance would be a virtual non runner for motorbikes, look at how hard it is for licenced premises and creche ect to get insurance. You wouldn't believe the cost of nightclubs insurance if I told you.
    Ultimately liability for a civil action will lay with the owner.
    There's zero chance the government will open themselves up to such liability, and frankly you'd want to be slightly touched in the head to consider it as a viable business.

    go on, humor us?


  • #38
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,871 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    TheBoyConor wrote: »
    To those saying that "oh trails should be built so we can ride our motorbikes legally".
    You hardly expect the tax payer to spend the very significant amount of cash this would need just to entertain a niche hobby do you? That will NEVER happen! Not for this.

    However, there is absolutely nothing stopping you and your team bike friends from clubbing together, buying done land and getting planning permission, and design and build such a facility.
    Nothing legally or in theory to stop that.

    In practice tho, it will be difficult and expensive to get planning, insurance will be an issue, and there will be objections.

    The same can be said for people who say that "they" should build tracks for sulky racers. Who is "they". The coounty council? Lol. Luxurious, why would they. It is the sulky crowd who should develop it. But they won't, because they couldn't care less and they are happy to flout the law and takeover motorways because there is no consequences for them monster what they do

    The tax payer gives millions to horse racing and they have loads of money, look at the price of top race horses. Why is the government supporting a rich person's hobby and criminalising another person's hobby? There are plenty of old quarries that could easily be converted for off road vehicles but instead we give money to rich horse owners. The sulkly racers can use greyhound tracks easily, off road vehicles need off places.

    How come other countries can provide facilities for motor vehicles and separate vehicles for walkers?


  • #39
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,871 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    TheBoyConor wrote: »
    To those saying that "oh trails should be built so we can ride our motorbikes legally".
    You hardly expect the tax payer to spend the very significant amount of cash this would need just to entertain a niche hobby do you? That will NEVER happen! Not for this.

    However, there is absolutely nothing stopping you and your team bike friends from clubbing together, buying done land and getting planning permission, and design and build such a facility.
    Nothing legally or in theory to stop that.

    In practice tho, it will be difficult and expensive to get planning, insurance will be an issue, and there will be objections.

    The same can be said for people who say that "they" should build tracks for sulky racers. Who is "they". The coounty council? Lol. Luxurious, why would they. It is the sulky crowd who should develop it. But they won't, because they couldn't care less and they are happy to flout the law and takeover motorways because there is no consequences for them monster what they do

    The tax payer gives millions to horse racing and they have loads of money, look at the price of top race horses. Why is the government supporting a rich person's hobby and criminalising another person's hobby? There are plenty of old quarries that could easily be converted for off road vehicles but instead we give money to rich horse owners. The sulkly racers can use greyhound tracks easily, off road vehicles need off places.

    How come other countries can provide facilities for motor vehicles and separate vehicles for walkers?


  • #40
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,605 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Del2005 wrote: »
    The tax payer gives millions to horse racing and they have loads of money, look at the price of top race horses. Why is the government supporting a rich person's hobby and criminalising another person's hobby? There are plenty of old quarries that could easily be converted for off road vehicles but instead we give money to rich horse owners. The sulkly racers can use greyhound tracks easily, off road vehicles need off places.

    How come other countries can provide facilities for motor vehicles and separate vehicles for walkers?

    erm...... not hard to understand tbh


  • #41
    Whatwicklow
    Registered Users Posts: 658 ✭✭✭Whatwicklow


    No need for any special locations, the country is literally crossed with established rights of way for vehicles. A lot of enduro bikes are taxed abs insured so I dunt see any problem.

    The antisocial bikes in parks are a different matter and is for AGS to fix.


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  • #42
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,797 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Whatwicklow wrote:
    No need for any special locations, the country is literally crossed with established rights of way for vehicles. A lot of enduro bikes are taxed abs insured so I dunt see any problem.


    That maybe the case, but these bikes are becoming a problem in many places, some sort of agreements are required before people step in to resolve it themselves. I suspect possibly many of the bikes I come across are not taxed or insured, some are complete wrecks to be honest, and some are very well looked after


  • #43
    Whatwicklow
    Registered Users Posts: 658 ✭✭✭Whatwicklow


    I don't think agreements can be reached that are better than the status quo. Responsible bikers just need to be responsible.

    Enter an enduro race or bike rally of you want off piest riding.

    AGS can deal with the uninsured, taxed, antisocial element you mention as a problem in some areas. That's their role.


  • #44
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,797 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Whatwicklow wrote:
    I don't think agreements can be reached that are better than the status quo. Responsible bikers just need to be responsible.


    So no change will occur then by offical means, it's important to realise, some people simply don't care, they only want what they want, again, I suspect many of the riders I come across have absolutely no tax or insurance, some of these bikes truly are wrecks, rangers have been trying to prevent them from accessing the land, but all measures generally, eventually fail. Other users are getting fed up, in particular the locals, the status quo is failing, something needs to change before people take action themselves. I have also seen very well looked after bikes, and we'll kitted out lads, in area's where bikes are banned, again, the status quo is failing.

    I'm aware I also can't be saying much as I'm an illegal trail builder, but everyone knows about us, and I'd imagine so to does the rangers. we ve been active for years, with little or no issues, in fact we ve been complimented on our work, including from locals, respect is key, respect for the land, landowners, the locals, all users, safety for all is critical, other land users have priority, particularly pedestrians. It is possible to create trails with all this in mind, keeping everyone as safe as possible, and to allow fantastic public amenities to be enjoyed by everyone. I think the situation desperately needs to change for trail riders, you won't stop lads from doing what they wanna do, but this has to be done in a way that keeps everyone safe, so everyone can have fun.


  • #45
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,856 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    funnily enough, this isnt exactly maturity in how to engage in this issue, you may not be helping yourself, im all for the fun, but.....

    That's clearly used as a road for motor vehicles so I've no idea what your problem is.

    TheBoyConor wrote: »
    death traps

    :rolleyes:

    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    I suspect many of the riders I come across have absolutely no tax or insurance

    An off-road vehicle isn't obliged to have either.

    Life ain't always empty.



  • #46
    H_Lime
    Registered Users Posts: 1,673 ✭✭✭H_Lime


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    That's clearly used as a road for motor vehicles so I've no idea what your problem is.




    :rolleyes:




    An off-road vehicle isn't obliged to have either.

    Whoever owns them deathtraps in those pics is on coillte land and is a filthy law breaker! Luckily I was there to photo them whilst studying the social interactions of the common long eared barn owl.

    BropBropBropBrop:eek:


  • #47
    iwillhtfu
    Registered Users Posts: 6,367 ✭✭✭iwillhtfu


    H_Lime wrote: »
    Whoever owns them deathtraps in those pics is on coillte land and is a filthy law breaker! Luckily I was there to photo them whilst studying the social interactions of the common long eared barn owl.

    BropBropBropBrop:eek:

    Have you balls dropped yet?


  • #48
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,757 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    That's clearly used as a road for motor vehicles so I've no idea what your problem is.




    :rolleyes:




    An off-road vehicle isn't obliged to have either.

    actually, if used in a public place - not necessarily a road btw - i believe it does have to have insurance. .. .

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • #49
    tashiusclay
    Registered Users Posts: 274 ✭✭tashiusclay


    Just giving this thread a bump. I'm currently interested in getting into trails riding. Trying to find out next, approximately where I can ride them in Ireland, in particular the west. My intended use will be long slow cross country rides, across as isolated as possible plains mountain areas and bogs generally. The bike would be the standard trails type bike with lights, indicators, road legal and insured basically. Driven to the off road routes and areas, via the main roads. NOT the loud aggressive small motocross bikes. Just for slow speed long distance exploring, not tearing up trails and walkways, just passing through them when necessary at slow gentle pace to get to the isolated area. Opinions appreciated. Most of the comments so far mostly spoke about younger people on more aggressive MX bikes. Thanks


  • #50
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,757 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    TheBoyConor wrote: »
    To those saying that "oh trails should be built so we can ride our motorbikes legally".
    You hardly expect the tax payer to spend the very significant amount of cash this would need just to entertain a niche hobby do you? That will NEVER happen! Not for this.

    However, there is absolutely nothing stopping you and your team bike friends from clubbing together, buying done land and getting planning permission, and design and build such a facility.
    Nothing legally or in theory to stop that.

    In practice tho, it will be difficult and expensive to get planning, insurance will be an issue, and there will be objections.

    The same can be said for people who say that "they" should build tracks for sulky racers. Who is "they". The coounty council? Lol. Luxurious, why would they. It is the sulky crowd who should develop it. But they won't, because they couldn't care less and they are happy to flout the law and takeover motorways because there is no consequences for them monster what they do

    First off, as taxpayers, motorcyclists are entitled to no less consideration or accommodating than any MTB user, including on State lands. If MTB-ers can use them, so can motorcyclists.

    No one will convince me that a downhill MTB is any safer than any motorcycle, and I'd argue they're worse: especially when it comes to brakes etc.

    And as for buying land for that purpose, actually you can't. You see, buying the land is the easy bit.

    I've seen an entire purpose built facility on private land harried into closure over issues from NIMBY's, Planning Dept etc.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • #51
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,757 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    tashiusclay wrote: »
    Just giving this thread a bump. I'm currently interested in getting into trails riding. Trying to find out next, approximately where I can ride them in Ireland, in particular the west. My intended use will be long slow cross country rides, across as isolated as possible plains mountain areas and bogs generally. The bike would be the standard trails type bike with lights, indicators, road legal and insured basically. Driven to the off road routes and areas, via the main roads. NOT the loud aggressive small motocross bikes. Just for slow speed long distance exploring, not tearing up trails and walkways, just passing through them when necessary at slow gentle pace to get to the isolated area. Opinions appreciated. Most of the comments so far mostly spoke about younger people on more aggressive MX bikes. Thanks

    Good luck with that. The West is particularly poorly served for off road motorcycling. Just look at MX etc, most is in Leinster/Ulster.

    Many years ago I and a number of friends all bought Enduros. One by one they all gave up, as access to anywhere was impossible. I was the Last Man Standing and sold my Pampera 250.....was a great bike.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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  • #52
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,428 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    galwaytt wrote: »
    First off, as taxpayers, motorcyclists are entitled to no less consideration or accommodating than any MTB user, including on State lands. If MTB-ers can use them, so can motorcyclists.

    No one will convince me that a downhill MTB is any safer than any motorcycle, and I'd argue they're worse: especially when it comes to brakes etc.

    And as for buying land for that purpose, actually you can't. You see, buying the land is the easy bit.

    I've seen an entire purpose built facility on private land harried into closure over issues from NIMBY's, Planning Dept etc.

    As far as I know , there's no prob buying the land and using it for dirt bikes , but if you charge anyone or there's a club fee involved that needs planning ...
    And I'd be that nimby , it's a horrible relentless noise ( unless you're the one on the bike ) .
    Maybe when electric dirt bikes become more of a thing people won't complain so much ,

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • #53
    H_Lime
    Registered Users Posts: 1,673 ✭✭✭H_Lime


    I do a bit of walking up the local hills (should do more!) and whilst there are mountain bikes up there they are largely ignored. This is not the case with motorcycles and whilst I agree with the sentiment Galwaytt the reality is different, at least where I'm living.


  • #54
    tashiusclay
    Registered Users Posts: 274 ✭✭tashiusclay


    galwaytt wrote: »
    Good luck with that. The West is particularly poorly served for off road motorcycling. Just look at MX etc, most is in Leinster/Ulster.

    Many years ago I and a number of friends all bought Enduros. One by one they all gave up, as access to anywhere was impossible. I was the Last Man Standing and sold my Pampera 250.....was a great bike.

    What part of the country were you based in when trying to do the enduro? I'm hoping the wests remoteness and lack of everything may be actually in my benefit, as I'm not looking for anything actually similar to mx tracks or trails, just remote plains and bogs and hills that I can drive the 4 stroke bike to via the public roads, without disturbing people o4and home again via the same roads. Kind of commonage type land I suppose, mainly.


  • #55
    tashiusclay
    Registered Users Posts: 274 ✭✭tashiusclay


    galwaytt wrote: »
    Good luck with that. The West is particularly poorly served for off road motorcycling. Just look at MX etc, most is in Leinster/Ulster.

    Many years ago I and a number of friends all bought Enduros. One by one they all gave up, as access to anywhere was impossible. I was the Last Man Standing and sold my Pampera 250.....was a great bike.

    What part of the country were you based in when trying to do the enduro? I'm hoping the wests remoteness and lack of everything may be actually in my benefit, as I'm not looking for anything actually similar to mx tracks or trails, just remote plains and bogs and hills that I can drive the 4 stroke bike to via the public roads, without disturbing people o4and home again via the same roads. Kind of commonage type land I suppose, mainly.


  • #56
    tashiusclay
    Registered Users Posts: 274 ✭✭tashiusclay


    galwaytt wrote: »
    Good luck with that. The West is particularly poorly served for off road motorcycling. Just look at MX etc, most is in Leinster/Ulster.

    Many years ago I and a number of friends all bought Enduros. One by one they all gave up, as access to anywhere was impossible. I was the Last Man Standing and sold my Pampera 250.....was a great bike.

    What part of the country were you based in when trying to do the enduro? I'm hoping the wests remoteness and lack of everything may be actually in my benefit, as I'm not looking for anything actually similar to mx tracks or trails, just remote plains and bogs and hills that I can drive the 4 stroke bike to via the public roads, without disturbing people and damaging walking trails and home again via the same public roads. Kind of commonage type land I suppose, mainly.


  • #57
    maestroamado
    Registered Users Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭maestroamado


    I think some of the coillte roads are where there were excisting roads.
    If you road legal you be ok on these.
    Google maps should give an idea...


  • #58
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,871 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Markcheese wrote: »
    As far as I know , there's no prob buying the land and using it for dirt bikes , but if you charge anyone or there's a club fee involved that needs planning ...
    And I'd be that nimby , it's a horrible relentless noise ( unless you're the one on the bike ) .
    Maybe when electric dirt bikes become more of a thing people won't complain so much ,

    It would be a change of use to run dirt bikes on your property so would require planning permission but insurance is the killer in this country and no amount of waivers or saying you aren't charging will get you off a large payout when someone injuries themselves.


  • #59
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,856 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    tashiusclay wrote: »
    What part of the country were you based in when trying to do the enduro? I'm hoping the wests remoteness and lack of everything may be actually in my benefit, as I'm not looking for anything actually similar to mx tracks or trails, just remote plains and bogs and hills that I can drive the 4 stroke bike to via the public roads, without disturbing people o4and home again via the same roads. Kind of commonage type land I suppose, mainly.

    Nowhere in this country is really 'remote' and everywhere is owned by somebody.

    This country is fecked for walkers, ffs...

    Life ain't always empty.



  • #60
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,856 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Del2005 wrote: »
    It would be a change of use to run dirt bikes on your property so would require planning permission but insurance is the killer in this country and no amount of waivers or saying you aren't charging will get you off a large payout when someone injuries themselves.

    Landowners won't let walkers on for fear of liability - they are in their hole going to let trail bikers in!

    Life ain't always empty.



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  • #61
    maestroamado
    Registered Users Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭maestroamado


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Nowhere in this country is really 'remote' and everywhere is owned by somebody.

    This country is fecked for walkers, ffs...


    There are loads if you look.as i said earlier most forests are where there were houses and i expect the roads through are still public property even after planted.


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