Government looking to force landlords to upgrade

The Student · 06-12-2019 11:57am

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Would you ever just get on with it then?

Should I be looking over my shoulder?

KyussB · 06-12-2019 12:00pm

No, I just did a search with "exit" and "leaving". It's basically the catch phrase of many of the forum regulars here - funny though that there never seems to come a time they actually leave, just always imminently about to, for years...

The Student · 06-12-2019 12:12pm

KyussB wrote: »

No, I just did a search with "exit" and "leaving". It's basically the catch phrase of many of the forum regulars here - funny though that there never seems to come a time they actually leave, just always imminently about to, for years...

Have a look at the RTB stats over the last couple of years regarding the number of landlords in the sector and draw your own conclusions.

GGTrek · 06-12-2019 12:33pm

KyussB wrote: »

No, I just did a search with "exit" and "leaving". It's basically the catch phrase of many of the forum regulars here - funny though that there never seems to come a time they actually leave, just always imminently about to, for years...

I sold everything this year, tired of people like you who are well represented by this populist government. None of the 10 units went to tenants. You will see that 2019 figures for units on the rental market will be even worse.

The combination of eco-BS vote grabbing policies (the latest changes in the building regulations that went into effect in November are just another ill thought example of eco-BS) combined with direct screw the landlords policies (which will become worse next year) is absolutely killing the rental market in Ireland. The govvie is not trying this on on owner occupiers, because they represent 70% of the vote and they would kill them at election time. It is just vote counting, nothing else by the populist jokers at the Dail.

KyussB · 06-12-2019 12:45pm

Many landlords here just love to have a microscopic focus on only one part of the property market - as if a property exiting the rental market, doesn't pop up on AirBnB or get sold to people who will live in it (or rent it out once again...) - or they expect us to believe that landlords will leave the property idle when rents are at their most lucrative ever, and prices too.

It's a load of transparent bollocks. Pull the other one...

Samuel T. Cogley · 06-12-2019 1:08pm

KyussB wrote: »

Many landlords here just love to have a microscopic focus on only one part of the property market - as if a property exiting the rental market, doesn't pop up on AirBnB or get sold to people who will live in it (or rent it out once again...) - or they expect us to believe that landlords will leave the property idle when rents are at their most lucrative ever, and prices too.

It's a load of transparent bollocks. Pull the other one...

It's all well and good having it owner occupied but that doesn't change the situation for renters. Not everyone purchasing is coming from the rental sector and even if they are the rental sector uses units with higher density so this 1 for 1 mentality is what's truly myopic.

JJJackal · 06-12-2019 1:12pm

The minimum BER will allow landlords to up rents by as much as they like.

This was one of the criteria for renovation if I am not mistaken.

Thus you can improve the value of the property, write the cost off (52% of it) against tax and then up the rent.

Am i wrong?

Gumbo · 06-12-2019 1:39pm

GGTrek wrote: »

I sold everything this year, tired of people like you who are well represented by this populist government. None of the 10 units went to tenants. You will see that 2019 figures for units on the rental market will be even worse.

The combination of eco-BS vote grabbing policies (the latest changes in the building regulations that went into effect in November are just another ill thought example of eco-BS) combined with direct screw the landlords policies (which will become worse next year) is absolutely killing the rental market in Ireland. The govvie is not trying this on on owner occupiers, because they represent 70% of the vote and they would kill them at election time. It is just vote counting, nothing else by the populist jokers at the Dail.

Just to argue the bolded parts. The changes in the Building Regulations are a good thing. Part L was known to be changing for many years, and those of us in the industry knew it was coming.

it also only effects new builds so it does directly effect owner occupiers. The same Part L Regs are currently out for public consultation again which will call for EV charging points etc

They are welcome changes in my opinion.

The Student · 06-12-2019 2:03pm

JJJackal wrote: »

The minimum BER will allow landlords to up rents by as much as they like.

This was one of the criteria for renovation if I am not mistaken.

Thus you can improve the value of the property, write the cost off (52% of it) against tax and then up the rent.

Am i wrong?

it is currently one of the options to increase the rent but do you seriously think the Govt would allow this. Expect this option to increase rent to be removed from the options available.

UpTheSlashers · 06-12-2019 4:05pm

KyussB wrote: »

Many landlords here just love to have a microscopic focus on only one part of the property market - as if a property exiting the rental market, doesn't pop up on AirBnB or get sold to people who will live in it (or rent it out once again...) - or they expect us to believe that landlords will leave the property idle when rents are at their most lucrative ever, and prices too.

It's a load of transparent bollocks. Pull the other one...

They also like to give the impression that no tenant actually pays rent in this country. We're all somehow overholding for years on end without consequence.

o1s1n · 06-12-2019 4:13pm

The Student wrote: »

Should I be looking over my shoulder?

I'd be checking the bushes outside your house! :eek:

JJJackal · 06-12-2019 4:15pm

The Student wrote: »

it is currently one of the options to increase the rent but do you seriously think the Govt would allow this. Expect this option to increase rent to be removed from the options available.

To get from an F to a C for example requires alot of cash

Fol20 · 06-12-2019 4:21pm

guyfo wrote: »

Pretty sure the sky high rents at the moment would cover your costs.....

Lol, do the figures and the come back to me instead of using emotive terms like sky high rents.

meeeeh · 06-12-2019 4:23pm

The Student wrote: »

What happens when the tenant is not paying rent for a year and cant evict them
and even if and when you do get them out you dont see any money for the months they were there but you are left to pay the mortgage. Is the "rent" still covering the costs!

Welcome to running a business. What do you think happens when customer doesn't pay their invoices.

I'm starting to think some small landlords have the 'poor farmer' attitude and they think they are entitled to certain amount of income just because.

Fol20 · 06-12-2019 4:27pm

KyussB wrote: »

No, I just did a search with "exit" and "leaving". It's basically the catch phrase of many of the forum regulars here - funny though that there never seems to come a time they actually leave, just always imminently about to, for years...

https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/1213/1016879-rent_index/

Im not leaving the market but its hard not say ll are not leaving when stats back it up

https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/1213/1016879-rent_index/

9k less rental stock when you would expect with "sky high" rents that more would be entering

The Student · 06-12-2019 4:31pm

meeeeh wrote: »

Welcome to running a business. What do you think happens when customer doesn't pay their invoices.

I'm starting to think some small landlords have the 'poor farmer' attitude and they think they are entitled to certain amount of income just because.

Okay name me one business where you are required to continue providing a service knowing you are never going to get paid.

Every business is allowed mitigate its loss by ceasing to supply a good or service when it does not get paid.

Even if you get a tenant out for non payment of rent and you get a judgement via the Courts its not worth the paper its written on.

Maybe you should go to your employer and say hey let me work for you and if things go bad and you can't or wont pay me then don't worry about it.

meeeeh · 06-12-2019 4:37pm

The Student wrote: »

Okay name me one business where you are required to continue providing a service knowing you are never going to get paid.

Every business is allowed mitigate its loss by ceasing to supply a good or service when it does not get paid.

Even if you get a tenant out for non payment of rent and you get a judgement via the Courts its not worth the paper its written on.

Maybe you should go to your employer and say hey let me work for you and if things go bad and you can't or wont pay me then don't worry about it.

I'm not excusing slow eviction and hardship collecting money but unlike a lot of businesses you are paid in advance when things are working well and you get security deposit. And you will still have your asset after the renter is out.

If you decide to go into rental market you should be aware there are risks and you are not entitled to make profit from investment. And you are certainly not the only business who will never recoup sometimes huge amounts due. Btw I am the employer and oh also rents out some land. I have very little sympathy for the complaining.

Ray Palmer · 06-12-2019 5:02pm

KyussB wrote: »

Many landlords here just love to have a microscopic focus on only one part of the property market - as if a property exiting the rental market, doesn't pop up on AirBnB or get sold to people who will live in it (or rent it out once again...) - or they expect us to believe that landlords will leave the property idle when rents are at their most lucrative ever, and prices too.

It's a load of transparent bollocks. Pull the other one...

Strange because I find landlords have a far better understanding than tenants who like to suggest landlords should pay for everything.

To give you an example you have mentioned AirBNB as where property goes after a landlords sells it. That can't happen legally. You have to have planning permission now to do that and very few applied and nobody was granted permission. So that is that one out the window.

A purchased property that was once rented usually (most close to all) will have a reduced occupancy to a rented property. People rent what the need and use all rooms but buying means they buy for the future. So a 3 bed house rented to a couple and 2 adults usually ends up with just 2 adults before they have children. That means a loss of accommodation to 2 adults. So that is another one out the window.

If it is going to be rented again the new landlord is stuck to the old rent in RPZ. Either a landlord won't buy it because of this or will do it up to increase the rent legally. So net result is an immediate reduction in rental property as it is sold vacant and vacant while work is done. Net result is higher rent.

It is actually viable to leave a property idle in order to increase rent. More importantly it makes it worth while not to invest and bring property to the market. I have property I could develop but I am not due to the uncertainty.

So from my view you have the microscope view of the property market.

The Student · 06-12-2019 5:02pm

meeeeh wrote: »

I'm not excusing slow eviction and hardship collecting money but unlike a lot of businesses you are paid in advance when things are working well and you get security deposit. And you will still have your asset after the renter is out.

If you decide to go into rental market you should be aware there are risks and you are not entitled to make profit from investment. And you are certainly not the only business who will never recoup sometimes huge amounts due.

You are underestimating the risk involved. You get one months rent but it can take you nearly a year to get someone out of the property. So if the average rent is €1500 you have lost the ability to earn €15k and that is assuming there is no damage to the property.

Your asset may be worth less than it was when you rented it to the tenant if they decide to damage it.

I am fully aware of business risk, what people fail to see is that this is a business transaction pure and simple, but the odds are stacked against the landlord.

There are good and bad landlords and tenants out there but the Govt has transferred the responsibility for housing people onto the private sector and is introducing legislation that is actually driving landlords out of the sector.

For a function business you need competition where participants compete on the service offering they have. We don't have this because of constant Govt interference.

That is one of the main reasons landlords are leaving the market. What people fail to realise is at the end of the day any rental property is the landlords but the Govt want to control what the landlord does with his property.

Let me give you an example, If you bought a mini bus and wanted to be a bus driver. Then you decide that its not for you but you don't want to sell the bus you want to leave it outside your property. If you use this example in the property market the Govt is saying you are not allowed leave your rental property empty even if you wanted to.

Ray Palmer · 06-12-2019 5:10pm

meeeeh wrote: »

I'm not excusing slow eviction and hardship collecting money but unlike a lot of businesses you are paid in advance when things are working well and you get security deposit. And you will still have your asset after the renter is out.

If you decide to go into rental market you should be aware there are risks and you are not entitled to make profit from investment. And you are certainly not the only business who will never recoup sometimes huge amounts due. Btw I am the employer and oh also rents out some land. I have very little sympathy for the complaining.

You are most certainly entitled to make a profit off investments. You may not be guaranteed a profit but that is not what you said.

The difference about the losses is when they start happening you can't do anything to prevent it getting worse if it is because a tenant isn't paying. Deposit and on months rent does not make up for 24 months of non payment and the damage to the property.

Don't really care if you have no sympathy it doesn't make it a fair system nor sustainable.

meeeeh · 06-12-2019 5:20pm

Ray Palmer wrote: »

You are most certainly entitled to make a profit off investments. You may not be guaranteed a profit but that is not what you said.

The difference about the losses is when they start happening you can't do anything to prevent it getting worse if it is because a tenant isn't paying. Deposit and on months rent does not make up for 24 months of non payment and the damage to the property.

Don't really care if you have no sympathy it doesn't make it a fair system nor sustainable.

Then go out.

I agree it's not fair how hard it is to collect money (I'm dealing with that a bit and high amounts) but that's besides the point.

Anyway this has nothing to do with expectations that you provide a service at some minimum standards. Drafty, cold, damp properties are not. It seems exactly the same attitude like farmers who think they are guaranteed living from their business. You are not if you can't make it then get out.

murphaph · 06-12-2019 5:32pm

meeeeh wrote: »

Welcome to running a business. What do you think happens when customer doesn't pay their invoices.

I'm starting to think some small landlords have the 'poor farmer' attitude and they think they are entitled to certain amount of income just because.

Ridiculous comparison. If a customer fails to pay an invoice I stop supplying him immediately and lose a limited amouy. I am not allowed to simply stop supplying a tenant who doesn't pay.

Ray Palmer · 06-12-2019 5:35pm

meeeeh wrote: »

Then go out.

I agree it's not fair how hard it is to collect money (I'm dealing with that a bit and high amounts) but that's besides the point.

Anyway this has nothing to do with expectations that you provide a service at some minimum standards. Drafty, cold, damp properties are not. It seems exactly the same attitude like farmers who think they are guaranteed living from their business. You are not if you can't make it then get out.

You see what you did there was assume things about me without reading the thread. I have insulated my properties and upgraded them so they are a much higher standard than the rental property around them.

I still have the same risks as every other landlord. Have already sold a property this year and in talks to sell another. I pay CGT on this on top of the income tax on the rent. This is different to if it was a business I was selling.

Your business doesn't have to keep providing a service if the client stops paying so very different.

Did your business have taxes and charges increased on it when income dropped? Landlords did. You just don't want to acknowledge that the market changed by regulation. There are huge barriers and charges to buying and selling property so it isn't as simple as just get out.

Gumbo · 06-12-2019 5:38pm

meeeeh wrote: »

Then go out.

I agree it's not fair how hard it is to collect money (I'm dealing with that a bit and high amounts) but that's besides the point.

Anyway this has nothing to do with expectations that you provide a service at some minimum standards. Drafty, cold, damp properties are not. It seems exactly the same attitude like farmers who think they are guaranteed living from their business. You are not if you can't make it then get out.

You probably should do the same for your line business as you mention that yo7 are chasing invoices too. You should get out.

meeeeh · 06-12-2019 5:46pm

murphaph wrote: »

Ridiculous comparison. If a customer fails to pay an invoice I stop supplying him immediately and lose a limited amouy. I am not allowed to simply stop supplying a tenant who doesn't pay.

I'm not going into details of business we are in but spare me the bs about limited amount. Limited amount can be huge. It's exactly the 'poor small farmer' nonsense when you think you should make profit regardless everything.

Besides it will take bank even longer to reposes if you stop paying your mortgage.

meeeeh · 06-12-2019 5:48pm

kceire wrote: »

You probably should do the same for your line business as you mention that yo7 are chasing invoices too. You should get out.

I'm not crying here how unfair everything is. We know the risks we deal with and expect certain issues.

murphaph · 06-12-2019 5:59pm

meeeeh wrote: »

I'm not going into details of business we are in but spare me the bs about limited amount. Limited amount can be huge. It's exactly the 'poor small farmer' nonsense when you think you should make profit regardless everything.

Besides it will take bank even longer to reposes if you stop paying your mortgage.

You are clearly extending too much credit to your customers if you are chasing massive sums of money.

The landlord should not be guaranteed a profit of course but delinquent tenants should be removable on short order. That's all.

Edit: For the record I think it should be much harder to default on payment generally. It's too easy in Ireland compared to here.

meeeeh · 06-12-2019 6:08pm

murphaph wrote: »

You are clearly extending too much credit to your customers if you are chasing massive sums of money.

The landlord should not be guaranteed a profit of course but delinquent tenants should be removable on short order. That's all.

And what has that to do with upgrading insulation? Or does the possibility of not being paid some day absolve you from all other maintenance.

Arrival · 06-12-2019 6:08pm

Will this help improve the disgraceful and embarrassing conditions of the majority of the apartments in this country? Because we really need something to be done about the state of the apartments we have available.

Mold, **** insulation, poverty electric storage heaters, windows with no noise cancellation whatsoever, etc. It's actually sad that developers and landlords feel that these kind of things are acceptable. There are many people in Ireland now that want to live long-term in the city centre, the days of people just using them as cheap, temporary housing during college and their first couple of years of working are gone. We need long-term city centre residents and in order for this to happen there needs to be comfortable housing standards in the apartments. Please God I hope any new developments going ahead have at least good insulation and central heating, we live in a cold and damp country yet we're seemingly too stupid and inept to know how to deal with these conditions. All over Europe you easily find even the oldest apartment blocks redeveloped and renovated to be more comfortable and modern than lots of our newer apartment developments. It's pathetic. We seem to have either poverty apartments or overly expensive, very high-end, luxurious apartments, very few 'normal' apartments in between, it would depress any young person trying to find a place to enjoy their lives to the fullest in our city centres

It's also sad as **** that property/renting is pretty much the only investment avenue in Ireland, this definitely plays a part in the crazy rental situation here. All involved with the implementation and maintaining of the 33% CGT rate have a lot to answer for

murphaph · 06-12-2019 6:10pm

meeeeh wrote: »

And what has that to do with upgrading insulation? Or does the possibility of not being paid some day absolve you from all other maintenance.

Upgrading something is not maintenance. The hint is in the name.

Government looking to force landlords to upgrade

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