The Vaccine

It is terrible that anyone who voices their reservations about taking the vaccine are called 'conspiracy theorists' or shot down straight away as having no clue as to how a vaccine works.

I am not going to pushed into getting a vaccine, that I know very little about and one that is in its infancy. similarities to the Swine Flu jab that was pushed onto the public only to later have numerous cases of people suffering secondary ailments as a result of a rushed out vaccine that seems to have disappeared altogether now.
Also It is not like we all haven't been lied to by the government before, they are almost masters of f**k ups and cover ups at this stage, (cover up of Cervical Cancer comes to mind)
I am even starting to doubt the number of Covid deaths there are in Ireland. Nearly a year in and we've still no real stats on those deaths regarding underlying illness etc. Is it still a case of a Covid positive person that gets run over by a bus still dies of Covid nothing else?!!
And young people, why should they even want to be vaccinated when it doesn't even effect them any more than a mild cold.
Lots of questions and doubts buzzing around my head, but I'm sure i will get lynched now for daring to even mention them!

I don't wish to get into any tit for tat on how I don't know anything.

penno wrote: »

It is terrible that anyone who voices their reservations about taking the vaccine are called 'conspiracy theorists' or shot down straight away as having no clue as to how a vaccine works.

Yea dude, when people are suggesting that the world leaders are actually in cahoots to reset the world into a communist utopia, and people are saying stuff like "We don't need vaccines because our immune system will just take care of the virus", the labels fit.

If anything you should be telling those folks off for muddying the waters.

King Mob wrote: »

Sorry, how do you know this?
How do you know the long term effects of the virus on everyone it effects?
How do you know that the death rate is actually this low? (It's not) And how do you know that it can't change?

We've only had it for a year and according to you, that is not enough time to understand it.

Seems a bit hypocritical to me.?

Yes I can see why it seems hypocritical, but I have reasons for it. Before I go on though I'll say that using words like "crap" and "pseudoscientific" to describe my opinion is not a very effective way to argue.

Following from that, to answer your previous questions:

King Mob wrote: »

How do you know the long term effects of the virus on everyone it effects?

We don't, but people seem to recover well.

King Mob wrote: »

And how do you know that it can't change?

It can change but doesn't look like it will.

King Mob wrote: »

And what about the bodily integrity of other people to not be infected by a virus?

Surely they will be vaccinated right?

Now, to address my "hypocrisy" I have 3 points. Firstly the virus has been around for more than a year, vaccine efforts have been around for at most half of that. Secondly, the vaccine is man-made and acts on a virus that even you say is not very well understood. Humans are quite flawed and terrible things can happen if we **** this up. Thirdly, whether or not this disease is bad (I think it's probably not going by "initial evidence" shall we call it), why introduce another variable into the mix? So, we're already in a bad situation where we have an at least somewhat bad disease. What happens if we really mess up with this and it's worse than the disease?

naughtynaughty wrote: »

Yes I can see why it seems hypocritical, but I have reasons for it. Before I go on though I'll say that using words like "crap" and "pseudoscientific" to describe my opinion is not a very effective way to argue.

But unfortunately, there is a lot of psudoscientific crap going around out there. And we're seeing a lot of it on this forum.
You arguments also share a lot with the common arguments from antivaxxers.

naughtynaughty wrote: »

We don't, but people seem to recover well.

It can change but doesn't look like it will.

Again, what are you basing this on? What research has been done on the long term effects inside a year?
If you're rejecting the vaccine because of this reason, you've no basis for concluding that there's no long term effects of the virus.

In fact, there's a lot of cases where the virus has left long lasting damage. We can't know the extent however, because it hasn't been very long.

naughtynaughty wrote: »

Surely they will be vaccinated right?

Again, it seems like you don't actually understand how vaccines work.
Sure, if 99% of all people are vaccinated, then it's not really an issue.
But then, why do you get to be part of the 1%? What if large portions of the population don't get the vaccine? Do they forfeit their right not to catch the virus from you?

What about the people who can't get vaccines for one reason or another? Either due to immunodeficiency issues or allergies? Tough luck to them, guess they have to stay home cause your rights to refuse a vaccine based of internet research trumps their rights to free movement or bodily integrity?

naughtynaughty wrote: »

Now, to address my "hypocrisy" I have 3 points. Firstly the virus has been around for more than a year, vaccine efforts have been around for at most half of that.

Yet you keep claiming that the virus and it's long term effects are understood enough to be deemed not an issue.
So if the vaccine is tested for another 6 months, then it will be alright?

What about the prior research in vaccines and previous experience in vaccines? Does all of that just not count?

naughtynaughty wrote: »

Secondly, the vaccine is man-made and acts on a virus that even you say is not very well understood. Humans are quite flawed and terrible things can happen if we **** this up.

And again, you claim that despite this, the virus is more well understood than the vaccine. That's a contradiction to me.

And you say terrible things can happen, what terrible things can happen with the vaccine specifically?

naughtynaughty wrote: »

Thirdly, whether or not this disease is bad (I think it's probably not going by "initial evidence" shall we call it), why introduce another variable into the mix?
So, we're already in a bad situation where we have an at least somewhat bad disease. What happens if we really mess up with this and it's worse than the disease?

What happens if we do nothing?
What happens if the virus gets worse?

I could also point to vague, unsubstantiated doomsday scenarios based on those options too.

It seems a lot like conspiracy theorists and anti vaxxers are fine with a few million people just dying to appease their paranoia.

feedmindc19 wrote: »

I suspect that the very introduction of more control (just like after 9/11) through AI will take place nicely and insidiously. Elon Musk have tried to chip a pig if I do not remember wrong.

So you believe that Bill Gates is part of a plot to chip people using this vaccine, correct?

feedmindc19 wrote: »

I suspect that the very introduction of more control (just like after 9/11) through AI will take place nicely and insidiously. Elon Musk have tried to chip a pig if I do not remember wrong.

Right, are you suggesting something nefarious will be happening if I go to my local GP for a jab, if yes, what is it exactly? and why?

King Mob wrote: »

But unfortunately, there is a lot of psudoscientific crap going around out there. And we're seeing a lot of it on this forum.
You arguments also share a lot with the common arguments from antivaxxers.

Ah why are you using the term "antivaxxer", it's NPC talk. Yep, I'm anti-vaccine. Anti this vaccine.

King Mob wrote: »

Again, what are you basing this on? What research has been done on the long term effects inside a year?

This is a variant of "Coronavirus" which has been around since the beginning of man. A stronger strain of something we've always had, and had never attempted to vaccinate against.

King Mob wrote: »

In fact, there's a lot of cases where the virus has left long lasting damage. We can't know the extent however, because it hasn't been very long.

Same with 'flu, you're watching too much RTE.

King Mob wrote: »

Again, it seems like you don't actually understand how vaccines work.
Sure, if 99% of all people are vaccinated, then it's not really an issue.
But then, why do you get to be part of the 1%? What if large portions of the population don't get the vaccine? Do they forfeit their right not to catch the virus from you?

Lol, thanks again for the condescending tone. To answer the bolded section. Yup.

King Mob wrote: »

What about the people who can't get vaccines for one reason or another? Either due to immunodeficiency issues or allergies? Tough luck to them, guess they have to stay home cause your rights to refuse a vaccine based of internet research trumps their rights to free movement or bodily integrity?

That's a great idea! I will add this to my arsenal of ways of getting out of having to take it.

King Mob wrote: »

Yet you keep claiming that the virus and it's long term effects are understood enough to be deemed not an issue.
So if the vaccine is tested for another 6 months, then it will be alright?

I'd give it 4-5 years, same with the normal amount of time it takes to make a vaccine.

King Mob wrote: »

What about the prior research in vaccines and previous experience in vaccines? Does all of that just not count?

This is an RNA messenger vaccine. New tech.

King Mob wrote: »

And you say terrible things can happen, what terrible things can happen with the vaccine specifically?

I dunno. I'm sure narcolepsy wasn't a concern with the swine flu jab. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/woman-settles-case-alleging-swine-flu-vaccine-link-to-narcolepsy-1.4088119

I knew that girl. My brother got it too.

King Mob wrote: »

What happens if we do nothing?
What happens if the virus gets worse?

I could also point to vague, unsubstantiated doomsday scenarios based on those options too.

It seems a lot like conspiracy theorists and anti vaxxers are fine with a few million people just dying to appease their paranoia.

Here's where we'll disagree. I, unlike you perhaps, believe in the validity of the Theory of Evolution. Survival of the fittest. There are already so many people on this planet that we are not only trashing it with obscene amounts of pollution, but we are actually warming the planet. Why not let the strong survive and the weak die off? I'm not saying that because I am strong, I'm saying that because that is the natural order.

My disappointments with this virus is 1) that the people can be so easily controlled and 2) that it's not deadly enough. Wouldn't you like a world where just the strongest survived?

feedmindc19 wrote: »

We are all entitled to our beliefs do I mock your belief , if you choose to believe your money grabbing ,spineless good for nothing EU/irish governments and choose to believe they have your interests at heart well be my guest. But unfortunatly my eyes are open to their bull**** and when youve seen the crap its hard to unsee. I would like to be niave and only have tunnel vision. But I dont and to answer your question again Yes I do believe it. Its the end of the world as we know it.

And you've dodged the questions again.

This is because you can't answer them I think.

You believe all this silly conspiracy stuff, yet you can't at all defend it.
Why believe it when you can't make sense of it?

Also, what happens when the world doesn't end like it didn't for every single time you guys predicted it? Will you reevaluated your beliefs? Or will you just push it back 10 years again and recycle all this nonsense for the next pandemic or crisis?

King Mob wrote: »

And you've dodged the questions again.

This is because you can't answer them I think.

You believe all this silly conspiracy stuff, yet you can't at all defend it.
Why believe it when you can't make sense of it?

Also, what happens when the world doesn't end like it didn't for every single time you guys predicted it? Will you reevaluate your beliefs? Or will you just push it back 10 years again and recycle all this nonsense for the next pandemic or crisis?

Of course he can't answer them! He doesn't know the answers, he just (rightly) knows that something very bad is happening. Do you expect him to have just been back from lunch with Bill Gates himself after he just divulged his entire master plan? I don't know if Gates has anything to do with anything.. but I'll tell you some bad is happening and as your man said, his eyes are open. Open your eyes.

Bolded part: lumping everyone into one category, us vs them mentality... Full of logical fallacies you are.

naughtynaughty wrote: »

Of course he can't answer them! He doesn't know the answers, he just (rightly) knows that something very bad is happening. Do you expect him to have just been back from lunch with Bill Gates himself after he just divulged his entire master plan? I don't know if Gates has anything to do with anything.. but I'll tell you some bad is happening and as your man said, his eyes are open. Open your eyes.

Bolded part: lumping everyone into one category, us vs them mentality... Full of logical fallacies you are.

No, I expect someone proposing a belief, especially one they are purporting as truth, and especially when they are decrying the non believers to be dumb sheep, to have a consistent, rational explanation.

But most conspiracy theorists don't, because their theories aren't rational or consistent.

And yes, I'm lumping him and yourself in with other conspiracy theorists who have claimed all of this crap before.
There isn't any difference.

King Mob wrote: »

No, I expect someone proposing a belief, especially one they are purporting as truth, and especially when they are decrying the non believers to be dumb sheep, to have a consistent, rational explanation.

But most conspiracy theorists don't, because their theories aren't rational or consistent.

And yes, I'm lumping him and yourself in with other conspiracy theorists who have claimed all of this crap before.
There isn't any difference.

Well, I personally don't think it's been claimed too often in the way I am as I was saying with not believing in all the mad ones. I try to hone in on what is rational and what I see going on around me. I don't like it when people take away my rights and time after time again in the past few months more and more of our rights have been taken away. This is a genuine concern and there should be more fight against it. If I told you last year that the government had the power to tell us that we couldn't leave our homes past 2km you would have laughed at me and told me yet again that I was the conspiracy theorist. Now you are lapping it up.

Doesn't matter what either of us say though man, we are 2 losers arguing about something we have no control over at 4am on the internet.

EDIT: I am going to bed now but actually I don't mean to call you a loser of course, that is a joke and it's all in good sport. Was actually quite fun and weirdly therapeutic thrashing this out. Good night friend!

naughtynaughty wrote: »

Doesn't matter what either of us say though man, we are 2 losers arguing about something we have no control over at 4am on the internet.

I mean you could stop promoting and posting unscientific, silly conspiracy crap and spreading misinformation.
That probably wouldn't hurt the situation.

naughtynaughty wrote: »

Ugh, sorry one more. It's just too god damn juicy.

No that is absolutely not true. There's actually a conspiracy-conspiracy going on. There are very real and genuine issues, but obscenely ridiculous theories like that are thrown into the mix to discredit the ones that actually are real.

Nope. The obscenely ridiculous theories have always existed. They spring up naturally all the time. The government wouldn't need to make them up.
You cats come up with them all by yourselves.
And when you come across them, you don't do anything to counter them, cause that raises uncomfortable thinking about your own pet conspiracy theories.