Air Accident / Incident thread

Portsalon · 18-09-2019 6:30pm

Well worth reading:- (although you'll need to create a free NYT account)

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/18/magazine/boeing-737-max-crashes.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share

Hotblack Desiato · 19-09-2019 1:30am

Or just disable javascript and cookies

cnocbui · 19-09-2019 12:40pm

A Belgian F-16 just crashed in France. Both pilots ejected. One of them has ended up dangling from a high voltage transmission line by his parachute. Did a black cat cross his path this morning?

https://www.letelegramme.fr/fait-divers/pluvigner-un-avion-de-chasse-de-l-armee-belge-s-ecrase-19-09-2019-12386877.php

Hotblack Desiato · 19-09-2019 1:41pm

According to BBC both crew are safe and well.

If that'd been a pylon with another set of lines below, he'd probably have been fried!

The Black Oil · 01-10-2019 6:29am

Skynet had a few scoops.

https://twitter.com/Emergidoc/status/1178781464097374208

The Black Oil · 18-10-2019 5:26pm

Meanwhile in Alaska.

https://twitter.com/airplusnews/status/1185171358868824064
https://twitter.com/FAANews/status/1185179340297900033

Hotblack Desiato · 18-10-2019 11:45pm

http://avherald.com/h?article=4ce28013&opt=0

Unfortunately a passenger died, presumably as a result of the propeller blade(s) which penetrated the cabin.

Nijmegen · 15-01-2020 1:18am

https://twitter.com/cshalby/status/1217191455418011648?s=21

Rare case of a fuel dump making news on the ground.

Stovepipe · 15-01-2020 1:28pm

If the LA authorities went on a random sampling exercise at LAX, they'd find samples of Jet A1 on probably every ramp worker, especially anyone who works close to aircraft, as well as samples of hydraulic fluid, water, dirt, coffee and possibly even blue toilet juice! If it's in the atmosphere, it will be on their clothes. You'd probably find more diesel particulate on the schoolkids from the schoolbus, as well as gallons of hairspray,perfume, food,etc.

Nijmegen · 15-01-2020 2:43pm

Stovepipe wrote: »

If the LA authorities went on a random sampling exercise at LAX, they'd find samples of Jet A1 on probably every ramp worker, especially anyone who works close to aircraft, as well as samples of hydraulic fluid, water, dirt, coffee and possibly even blue toilet juice! If it's in the atmosphere, it will be on their clothes. You'd probably find more diesel particulate on the schoolkids from the schoolbus, as well as gallons of hairspray,perfume, food,etc.

In fairness I think from reading the stories, the fuel came down like rain rather than a very very dispersed aerosol as you'd expect to be collecting around people working in the airport. Concentration does matter.

markpb · 15-01-2020 5:43pm

Stovepipe wrote: »

If the LA authorities went on a random sampling exercise at LAX, they'd find samples of Jet A1 on probably every ramp worker, especially anyone who works close to aircraft, as well as samples of hydraulic fluid, water, dirt, coffee and possibly even blue toilet juice! If it's in the atmosphere, it will be on their clothes. You'd probably find more diesel particulate on the schoolkids from the schoolbus, as well as gallons of hairspray,perfume, food,etc.

That’s a bit of an apples and oranges comparison. People who work in the airport, who are aware of the place they’ll be working vs children playing at school.

Stovepipe · 15-01-2020 11:54pm

A good shower will wash kerosene off anyone, with no long term effects for such a small exposure and a decent washing machine will take care of the clothes. It's kerosene, not battery acid.

irishkopite93 · 15-01-2020 11:56pm

Stovepipe wrote: »

A good shower will wash kerosene off anyone, with no long term effects for such a small exposure and a decent washing machine will take care of the clothes. It's kerosene, not battery acid.

Even after a good shower you can smell Jet A1 off your skin. Generally takes a day or two and a couple of showers at least!

Dardania · 16-01-2020 8:58am

irishkopite93 wrote: »

Even after a good shower you can smell Jet A1 off your skin. Generally takes a day or two and a couple of showers at least!

Not to mention, it's a solvent right? Cant be good to breathe that in (although obviously it's worse to breathe I'm the result of com busting kerosene)

Cloudio9 · 16-01-2020 9:44am

Is it clear if it was necessary to dump it over a built up area at low altitude?

Should’ve been very easy to dump it over the Pacific unless there was something particularly complex about the incident.

markpb · 16-01-2020 10:03am

Cloudio9 wrote: »

Is it clear if it was necessary to dump it over a built up area at low altitude?

Should’ve been very easy to dump it over the Pacific unless there was something particularly complex about the incident.

It's odd that the crew told ATC that the incident was under control, they had no need to dump fuel and they didn't seem to be pushed about having EMT on the runway waiting for them. As someone said earlier, this seems more like an accident than the correct response to an emergency.

irishkopite93 · 16-01-2020 10:04am

Dardania wrote: »

Not to mention, it's a solvent right? Cant be good to breathe that in (although obviously it's worse to breathe I'm the result of com busting kerosene)

It's nasty stuff altogether, certainly wouldn't be nice if it got into your eyes and if any of the kids had existing skin conditions I'd imagine they didn't react well to it.

Mebuntu · 03-10-2020 1:45am

I've been checking through the outstanding investigation reports at AAIU and there is still no report (preliminary or final) issued on the serious incident involving a Stobart ATR (operating an Aer Lingus Regional flight) that descended below minima on approach to EIDW runway 28 more than four years ago on 2nd Sept. 2016.

Extract from Aviation Herald:
The Irish AAIU notified the aircraft descended through its assigned altitude of 2000 feet and was still descending through 1100 feet MSL when the controller received a minimum safe altitude warning and queried the crew. Flaps and gear were still up at that point, during the go-around however it appeared the flaps had been extended. The conditions were VMC with few clouds at 2200 feet. The occurrence has been rated a serious incident and is being investigated by the AAIU.

Some may remember that two years ago this incident (and another Stobart one that occurred around the same time) dropped off the list but were reinstated following an enquiry from the Aviation Herald who were informed that reports were "about to conclude".

With little or no flights/incidents in 2020 I'd have thought that clearing up the backlog could have been achieved.

Anyone know if it would it be normal policy for the CVR to have been commandeered by the AAIU on landing after such an incident?

Coincidentally, no report of any kind has been issued in respect of a Flybe Dash 8 that, according to AAIU website, descended below the glideslope at EIDW almost two and a half years ago on 13th April 2018.

Stovepipe · 05-10-2020 12:49pm

Look on the AAIU website and count how many people they have and divide the workload by that amount.

Mebuntu · 05-10-2020 7:18pm

Stovepipe wrote: »

Look on the AAIU website and count how many people they have and divide the workload by that amount.

OK, you did mention this previously but another two years have elapsed. In the ensuing period there have been many reports (I didn't count them) issued in respect of small private various types in various incidents around small airfields that have all occurred since then. It's only my opinion, of course, but I would normally expect a serious incident with a commercial aircraft to be a huge priority over the latter.

In the ATR case in question an aircraft was not only below minima but down to 1100ft and still descending until ATC fortunately intervened. I just don't understand how such an investigation is proving so difficult to complete. Even AF447 took only three years. There can't be too many possibilities especially as this happened on a clear day. You could probably do this one yourself

Stovepipe · 06-10-2020 9:06am

Quite simply,I dont know. At a guess, they are waiting for feedback from interested parties.

Austrian Simon · 06-10-2020 8:09pm

Mebuntu wrote: »

I've been checking through the outstanding investigation reports at AAIU and there is still no report (preliminary or final) issued on the serious incident involving a Stobart ATR (operating an Aer Lingus Regional flight) that descended below minima on approach to EIDW runway 28 more than four years ago on 2nd Sept. 2016.

Extract from Aviation Herald:
The Irish AAIU notified the aircraft descended through its assigned altitude of 2000 feet and was still descending through 1100 feet MSL when the controller received a minimum safe altitude warning and queried the crew. Flaps and gear were still up at that point, during the go-around however it appeared the flaps had been extended. The conditions were VMC with few clouds at 2200 feet. The occurrence has been rated a serious incident and is being investigated by the AAIU.

Some may remember that two years ago this incident (and another Stobart one that occurred around the same time) dropped off the list but were reinstated following an enquiry from the Aviation Herald who were informed that reports were "about to conclude".

With little or no flights/incidents in 2020 I'd have thought that clearing up the backlog could have been achieved.

Anyone know if it would it be normal policy for the CVR to have been commandeered by the AAIU on landing after such an incident?

Coincidentally, no report of any kind has been issued in respect of a Flybe Dash 8 that, according to AAIU website, descended below the glideslope at EIDW almost two and a half years ago on 13th April 2018.

Both investigations are still listed pending and in progress. Yup, I know, what they told me in October 2018, and we now have October 2020.

I won't touch base with them this time. I prefer them to do the investigations thoroughly and not just point fingers at the humans in seat row 0, but to actually find out what really happened and, if there was a human error, how did that human error come together and could something be done to avoid it in the future. This takes time, sometimes significant time. So I'll let them complete their investigations in peace (though I won't let them rest in peace <eg>).

Just for info: the record investigation time I have seen so far was 12 years! Well, not quite ... Actually, the record investigation concerns an incident in Addis Ababa on Mar 31st 2003, in which a VOR that had become wet nearly caused two CFITS including one British Mediterranean A320. The Ethiopian report is still pending and has not surfaced 17 years later even though the ECAA and accident investigation now have their own Website. However, the British AAIB decided to make their own report in 2008 ... See http://avherald.com/h?article=42cba6a2

I don't think the Pandemic helps the AAIU operations, but their operations are crippled too over the needs for distancing, unavailability of contacts, funding, etc. I don't think, it would be easy to conduct such investigations from the home office. So, I don't think the reduced number of current incidents helps them complete other open investigations instead.

Servus, Simon
(P.S.: as someone asked in 2018 - post #389 - in response to my other post concerning this Stobart occurrence, yup, the one from the Aviation Herald)
P.P.S: Looks like I really missed that Dash 8 on April 13th 2018 - so it'll be covered once an AAIU report is out.

Mebuntu · 06-10-2020 10:05pm

Many thanks for your input, Simon.

Always great to hear from you

Gaoth Laidir · 08-10-2020 12:46pm

Mebuntu wrote: »

OK, you did mention this previously but another two years have elapsed. In the ensuing period there have been many reports (I didn't count them) issued in respect of small private various types in various incidents around small airfields that have all occurred since then. It's only my opinion, of course, but I would normally expect a serious incident with a commercial aircraft to be a huge priority over the latter.

In the ATR case in question an aircraft was not only below minima but down to 1100ft and still descending until ATC fortunately intervened. I just don't understand how such an investigation is proving so difficult to complete. Even AF447 took only three years. There can't be too many possibilities especially as this happened on a clear day. You could probably do this one yourself

If it was a case of flight crew error then politics will again kick in and the rest of the aviation world will have to wait, lest blame is indirectly apportioned to said flight crew. That's the way it seems to work in this country. The feelings of flight crew or their families take precedence over the timely release of final reports that could save further crews from repeating the incident.

So yes, we just have to wait.

Stovepipe · 10-10-2020 1:32pm

The thing is, accidents and incidents that don't involve death or injury or the total loss of an aircraft are , relatively speaking, easier to deal with and they can be processed fairly quickly. If a person is killed or injured or it becomes apparent that a structural/system/electrical/engine failure has caused the crash, then the stakes are higher. If an accident has a public/political aspect to it, such as R116's crash, then it's even worse, as national attention is focused on the event and people start demanding instantaneous answers to what is a long, drawn out process.

Mebuntu · 15-01-2021 1:16pm

Mebuntu wrote: »

I've been checking through the outstanding investigation reports at AAIU and there is still no report (preliminary or final) issued on the serious incident involving a Stobart ATR (operating an Aer Lingus Regional flight) that descended below minima on approach to EIDW runway 28 more than four years ago on 2nd Sept. 2016.

The report is finally out!

http://www.aaiu.ie/sites/default/files/report-attachments/Report%202021-001_0.pdf

Bsal · 21-01-2021 1:21am

That's the end for this 737 https://twitter.com/fl360aero/status/1351588710429691910?s=20

Hotblack Desiato · 21-01-2021 1:53pm

Hmmm what's the dividing line between "hard landing" and "crash" :eek:

smurfjed · 22-01-2021 4:16am

The report from the USAF GLOBAL that crashed in Afghanistan is out, pilot error.

Air Combat Command released an accident investigation board report today regarding the E-11A crash that occurred January 27, 2020, during which two pilots were fatally injured. The E-11A crashed in Ghazni Province, Afghanistan, following a catastrophic engine failure.

Both pilots, Lt. Col. Paul K. Voss, 46, and Capt. Ryan S. Phaneuf, 30, were assigned to the 430th Expeditionary Electronic Combat Squadron, Kandahar Airfield, Afghanistan, and were conducting a combat sortie in support of Operation FREEDOM’S SENTINEL.

Their mission, and the mission of the E-11A, was to serve as a Battlefield Airborne Communications Node, which allows different communication systems to share and relay voice, video, imagery and data between warfighters in the air and on the ground. BACN is often referred to as “Wi-Fi in the sky” and enables connectivity across multiple battlespace communication platforms.

Evidence indicates that one hour and 45 minutes into flight, a fan blade broke free from the left engine, causing the left engine to shut down. Approximately 24 seconds after the initial incident, the crew shut down the right, and only operable, engine resulting in a dual engine out emergency.

The aircraft was approximately 230 nautical miles from Kandahar Airfield when the dual engine out occurred, and neither engine airstarted to provide any usable thrust. The crew initiated a mayday call to air traffic control stating they had an engine failure on both motors and intended to proceed to Kandahar.

The aircraft was outside of the gliding distance to reach Kandahar Airfield, and also flew outside of gliding distance to other available landing locations, including Bagram Airfield, Kabul International Airport, and Forward Operating Base Shank.

The crew tried maneuvering the aircraft towards Forward Operating Base Sharana, but did not have the altitude and airspeed to glide the remaining distance. The crew unsuccessfully attempted landing in a field approximately 21 nautical miles short of Sharana. Both pilots were fatally injured and the aircraft was destroyed.

“This tragic accident and the loss of these two Airmen will not be forgotten,” said Gen. Mark Kelly, commander of Air Combat Command. “These Airmen gave the ultimate sacrifice in service to the nation while deployed supporting an overseas combat mission. They should be recognized and remembered for their dedication and bravery.”

The AIB determined the cause of the mishap was the crew’s error in analyzing which engine had catastrophically failed. This error resulted in the decision to shut down the working engine, creating a dual engine out emergency. Additionally, the AIB president found that the crew’s failure to airstart the right engine and their decision to recover the aircraft to Kandahar Airfield, Afghanistan, substantially contributed to the mishap.

Due to aircraft vibrations and the dual engine out emergency, both the cockpit voice recorder and the digital flight data recorder stopped recording for the majority of the mishap sequence, which denied the direct evidence of certain events. Therefore, the exact experience of the crew cannot be fully determined.

The cost of damages to government property was $120 million.

https://www.acc.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/2478327/e-11a-accident-investigation-board-report-released/

smurfjed · 22-01-2021 4:16am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Hmmm what's the dividing line between "hard landing" and "crash" :eek:

Can you use it again

Air Accident / Incident thread

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