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College Green Plaza -- public consultation open

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    #302
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,647 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    lxflyer wrote: »
    There already is a central zone on both lines - it's treated as the same zone for fare purposes.

    I'd expect the Central zone to extend north to either Broadstone or Grangegorman and for there to be another fare zone to Broombridge.

    Not what I meant - heavily discounted short central fares like DB has.


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    #303
    trellheim
    Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭trellheim


    So are they going for planning or what - there was a newspaper art yesterday ?


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    #304
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,542 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    trellheim wrote: »
    So are they going for planning or what - there was a newspaper art yesterday ?

    Going to An Bord Pleanala thankfully, with full EIS required.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/college-green-walk-cycle-plaza-plan-to-go-to-bord-plean%C3%A1la-1.2816642


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    #305
    Boulevardier
    Registered Users Posts: 1,375 ✭✭✭Boulevardier


    I never cease to be amazed by how effective Dublin's cyclists (and motorists) are at getting their views aired and considered.

    Why can Dublin's public transport users not do the same?

    I used to try and organise public meetings for public transport users. There was never more than a handful of people at any of them, yet cyclists are able to get hundreds of their kind on the streets regularly.

    My worry here is that "College Green plaza" and other traffic plans will not reflect the concerns of bus commuters, and perhaps we will have only ourselves to blame.


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    #306
    2RockMountain
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,012 ✭✭✭2RockMountain


    Boulevardier wrote: »
    I never cease to be amazed by how effective Dublin's cyclists (and motorists) are at getting their views aired and considered.

    Why can Dublin's public transport users not do the same?

    I used to try and organise public meetings for public transport users. There was never more than a handful of people at any of them, yet cyclists are able to get hundreds of their kind on the streets regularly.

    My worry here is that "College Green plaza" and other traffic plans will not reflect the concerns of bus commuters, and perhaps we will have only ourselves to blame.

    I guess the motivation for cyclists comes from the daily near death experiences that public transport users don't get to enjoy.


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    #307
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    2RockMountain wrote: »
    I guess the motivation for cyclists comes from the daily near death experiences that public transport users don't get to enjoy.

    Please change the record.. Same old "motorists murder cyclists" crap every post you make.

    Well public transport users might have the joys of near death experiences if this goes ahead..

    After all, the majority are going to have to walk between stops to get anywhere, defeating the point of cross city transport.

    And not a single thought to the old, infirm or disabled.


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    #308
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    Please change the record.. Same old "motorists murder cyclists" crap every post you make.

    Focus on the point made in the context of other points and not on the poster or their posting record.

    In this case, he was responding to a point made by another poster and was just quickly giving his views as to why cyclists may be more more motivated (btw Im not defending my views here because, while I don't think he's off the mark too much, my views differ and it's more complicated from bus users side and maybe cyclists too).

    On second thought, in the context of this topic, if anybody wants to discuss the issue of why bus users aren't motivated to protest etc, please start a new thread and keep this one on topic.

    -- moderator


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    #309
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    After all, the majority are going to have to walk between stops to get anywhere, defeating the point of cross city transport

    A majority of bus users support the changes according a survey commissioned by the city council and I've heard or seen support from bus users on here and elsewhere.

    It's not quite as simple to presume walking notably further will be the default as not everyone is going to College Green and Dame St or south of those, and even for many of those who are, there'll be nearby stops.

    Overall it would likely be a mix of things:
    • Some will walk marginally further, some a bit further
    • some will be closer to their end point,
    • Some will switch to a different bus route or Luas at their starting point,
    • Some will transfer to a second bus or Luas in the city centre to get to their final city centre location
    • Some will continue to switch buses in the city
    • Some might switch to train, car or bicycle for their full trip
    prinzeugen wrote: »
    And not a single thought to the old, infirm or disabled.

    That's not what I've heard at committee meetings on this and the city council say they will be listening to disabled groups.


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    #310
    trellheim
    Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭trellheim


    A majority of bus users support the changes according a survey commissioned by the city council

    I find that hard to believe to be honest, is the survey available anywhere.

    I also find it hard to believe cycling advocates support a plaza without a cycle track [ I speak as a cyclist ]


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    #311
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,501 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    trellheim wrote: »
    I find that hard to believe to be honest, is the survey available anywhere.

    I also find it hard to believe cycling advocates support a plaza without a cycle track [ I speak as a cyclist ]

    Who said the plaza has no cycle track?


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    #312
    trellheim
    Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭trellheim


    Look : http://www.dublincity.ie/sites/default/files/content/RoadsandTraffic/Documents/RT5158_1CollegeGreenPlazaProposals.pdf

    No cycle track.


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    #313
    AngryLips
    Registered Users Posts: 2,677 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    Well a cycle path isn't exactly going to dominate this space


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    #314
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,501 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    trellheim wrote: »
    Look : http://www.dublincity.ie/sites/default/files/content/RoadsandTraffic/Documents/RT5158_1CollegeGreenPlazaProposals.pdf

    No cycle track.

    Look, I don't know how many times this has to be said - the actual design of the plaza will only be put out to tender AFTER the plan to have a plaza is approved. Maybe the ABP appeal will accelerate that idea, but nobody knows anything about what the plaza itself will look like yet. It's just an area designated for future design and a bunch of traffic amendments.


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    #315
    trellheim
    Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭trellheim


    Look, I don't know how many times this has to be said - the actual design of the plaza will only be put out to tender AFTER the plan to have a plaza is approved. Maybe the ABP appeal will accelerate that idea, but nobody knows anything about what the plaza itself will look like yet. It's just an area designated for future design and a bunch of traffic amendments

    Wat ? I just showed you a link with detailed drawings . Yes its going to ABP and what-not but the fact remains no cycle track is on that at the moment . Nobody from DCC has said there would be a cycle track on it . Its not built yet so many things might change - so what is wrong with going with the evidence published so far ?


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    #316
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,501 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    trellheim wrote: »
    Wat ? I just showed you a link with detailed drawings . Yes its going to ABP and what-not but the fact remains no cycle track is on that at the moment . Nobody from DCC has said there would be a cycle track on it . Its not built yet so many things might change - so what is wrong with going with the evidence published so far ?

    Because the evidence published so far specifically stated that the design of the plaza itself would come later.


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    #317
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    MJohnston wrote: »
    Because the evidence published so far specifically stated that the design of the plaza itself would come later.

    The evidence published so far specifically includes yield signs at the plaza end of the cycle lanes. There'd be no need for yield signs if the cycle track went through the plaza.


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    #318
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    trellheim wrote: »
    Wat ? I just showed you a link with detailed drawings . Yes its going to ABP and what-not but the fact remains no cycle track is on that at the moment . Nobody from DCC has said there would be a cycle track on it . Its not built yet so many things might change - so what is wrong with going with the evidence published so far ?

    Officials from Dublin City Council have said repeatedly that there will be a segregated cycle path across the plaza.

    It was said last at the transport committee meeting last week.


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    #319
    trellheim
    Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭trellheim


    What is there at the moment looks fairly detailed so you will excuse the suspicion.


    Was that a public SPC committee meeting ? I can't find the agenda or record of it

    http://www.dublincity.ie/main-menu-your-council-strategic-policy-committee-corporate-policy-group/transport-traffic

    On the flip side I can see why they didn't put a cycle track in as you will be crossing a huge pedestrian flow . Your use of the term segregated is interesting as coloured paving slab won't cut it IMHO !


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    #320
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,501 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    trellheim wrote: »
    What is there at the moment looks fairly detailed so you will excuse the suspicion.

    It doesn't look detailed at all - looking at the link you provided there is basically zero detail at all on the actual plaza.


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    #321
    trellheim
    Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭trellheim


    It doesn't look detailed at all - looking at the link you provided there is basically zero detail at all on the actual plaza.
    Looks detailed enough to me but different strokes I suppose. The primary point here is the cycle tracks ending before the plaza itself , though ?


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    #322
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,501 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    trellheim wrote: »
    Looks detailed enough to me but different strokes I suppose. The primary point here is the cycle tracks ending before the plaza itself , though ?

    Because THEY ARENT DESIGNING THE PLAZA YET. What would be the point including a cycle track across the plaza, when it isn't actually a legitimate part of the plan?


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    #323
    trellheim
    Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭trellheim


    What would be the point including a cycle track across the plaza, when it isn't actually a legitimate part of the plan?
    Are you not just contradicting yourself here - you are saying there is no cycle track planned across the plaza ?

    You obviously have a different view here to what I and others have .

    Lets break it down :

    1. DCC released plans ( detailed - maybe - I think so but others don't - fair enough )
    2. Said plans had cycle lanes ending before the plaza and continuing afterward.
    3. This I take to mean no cycle track
    4. This was supposed to be what was going ahead until they decided to EIS/ABP
    5. No public information is available to contradict these points

    You say different; fine; what's your evidence ?

    And I can read all caps just like the next guy, thanks.


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    #324
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    trellheim wrote: »
    Are you not just contradicting yourself here - you are saying there is no cycle track planned across the plaza ?

    You obviously have a different view here to what I and others have .

    Lets break it down :

    1. DCC released plans ( detailed - maybe - I think so but others don't - fair enough )
    2. Said plans had cycle lanes ending before the plaza and continuing afterward.
    3. This I take to mean no cycle track
    4. This was supposed to be what was going ahead until they decided to EIS/ABP
    5. No public information is available to contradict these points

    You say different; fine; what's your evidence ?

    And I can read all caps just like the next guy, thanks.

    Brendan O'Brien, head of technical services at the transport section of Dublin City Council said: "...it is the intention to have a segregated cycle route through College Green..."

    http://dublincity.public-i.tv/core/share/open/webcast/0/0/560/245944/0/0/start_time/4831000

    As already stated -- this has been repeated a number of times at meeting etc since the original consultation documents were published.

    The plan which will go to ABP will have details of the plaza -- it will be a shock of if a two-way cycle route across the plaza was not included!


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    #325
    trellheim
    Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭trellheim


    Thank you for the link to that. That is the first evidence I have seen.


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    #326
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,501 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    trellheim wrote: »
    Are you not just contradicting yourself here - you are saying there is no cycle track planned across the plaza ?

    You obviously have a different view here to what I and others have .

    Lets break it down :

    1. DCC released plans ( detailed - maybe - I think so but others don't - fair enough )
    2. Said plans had cycle lanes ending before the plaza and continuing afterward.
    3. This I take to mean no cycle track
    4. This was supposed to be what was going ahead until they decided to EIS/ABP
    5. No public information is available to contradict these points

    You say different; fine; what's your evidence ?

    And I can read all caps just like the next guy, thanks.

    There's no contradiction because you're talking about two separate things. Here, let's break it down:

    1. The 'first plan' was created by DCC to turn areas of College Green into a public plaza. This plan incorporates the area of extent of the new plaza, necessary road closures and traffic changes for the plaza, and changes to infrastructure surrounding and feeding into the plaza (which includes those stubbed out cycle tracks you're talking about). In this plan they specifically called out the fact that they would be tendering out:
    2. The second plan, involving the design of the public realm *in* and on the plaza area.

    The second plan was originally due to be tendered out beyond DCC *after* they received the go-ahead for the first plan, but based on what monument says, it looks like because the first plan has to go to ABP now, they'll go ahead and put together the second plan too, and submit them both.

    So, my original point (which was in response to "I also find it hard to believe cycling advocates support a plaza without a cycle track") was that nobody knows what the plaza area itself will look like because we know it's coming in the second plan. The dead end cycle paths shown in the first plan are no indication of anything concrete because the second plan could very likely continue them through the plaza itself in some way.


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    #327
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    One things for sure, the footpaths on college green and dame street are too narrow for the amount of pedestrians using them


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    #328
    leshamry
    Registered Users Posts: 41 ✭leshamry


    Turn up the sound?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouhiibZjeVc


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    #329
    Muahahaha
    Registered Users Posts: 19,610 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    Anyone know where the plan is at right now?

    Was on Parliament St the other day and saw 2 x full coaches of school children stopped to drop off kids for a school tour of Dublin Castle. They clogged the whole street in minutes which got me thinking how busy it is going to get with the College Green diversions.


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    #330
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,542 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    Anyone know where the plan is at right now?

    Was on Parliament St the other day and saw 2 x full coaches of school children stopped to drop off kids for a school tour of Dublin Castle. They clogged the whole street in minutes which got me thinking how busy it is going to get with the College Green diversions.

    Full EIS on the impact of the College Green plaza (and specifically the bus diversions to Parliament Street and the Quays) due later this month to then go to ABP.


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    #331
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,501 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    The regressions of every other part of the transport plans suggest to me that the plaza plan will be fully compromised before anything goes ahead.


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