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Is Northern Ireland culturally Scottish or Irish?

  • 21-12-2015 1:42pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 661 ✭✭✭


    Not trying to start a war here, just looking for some responses to a question I've considered for a while, how do people view culture in Northern Ireland?

    Also please be aware that I'm using Unionist and Nationalist as catch-all terms, otherwise the options will be full of rambling explanations and apologies to whoever may not like being lumped into a certain group. Hopefully the poll options will cover all opinions, but if your thoughts cannot be expressed with a vote then please feel free to yell at me down below.

    Is Northern Ireland culturally Scottish or Irish? 85 votes

    Culturally Scottish
    1% 1 vote
    Culturally Irish
    7% 6 votes
    50/50: Split between Unionists and Nationalists
    24% 21 votes
    All three are culturally British
    18% 16 votes
    All three are culturally Celtic/Gaelic
    5% 5 votes
    Unionist culture is distinct from the rest of Scotland
    5% 5 votes
    Nationalist culture is distinct from the rest of Ireland
    2% 2 votes
    Northern Ireland has its own distinct culture
    4% 4 votes
    Why did you post this? Are you trying to start a fight?!
    23% 20 votes
    Does it really matter?
    5% 5 votes


«1

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,488 ✭✭✭Andre 3000


    It's culturally Northern Irish.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,248 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    Let's put aside our differences & all agree that they do sound quite funny.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,318 ✭✭✭✭Menas


    Why do you need to know?!


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,845 ✭✭✭timthumbni


    Let's put aside our differences & all agree that they do sound quite funny.

    I'm a proud Northern Irishman but I have to admit our accents are funny. I think it was the author Colin Bateman who described a Northern Irish accent as sounding like someone who is complaining about something and quite aggressive even when they are trying to be polite.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,660 ✭✭✭armaghlad


    Andre 3000 wrote: »
    It's culturally Northern Irish.
    Which entails?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,563 ✭✭✭dd972


    These things can vary even within Unionist communities, you get the sort of Northern Protestant like James Nesbitt, Van Morrison or Eddie Irvine who seem quite comfortable being perceived as Irish, quite different from the sort of drunken, neanderthal Loyalists who riot because the PSNI won't allow them to march down a certain road.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,845 ✭✭✭timthumbni


    dd972 wrote: »
    These things can vary even within Unionist communities, you get the sort of Northern Protestant like James Nesbitt, Van Morrison or Eddie Irvine who seem quite comfortable being perceived as Irish, quite different from the sort of drunken, neanderthal Loyalists who riot because the PSNI won't allow them to march down a certain road.

    Jimmy Nesbit was in a loyalist band as a cub and actually was very handy with the stick as you would see in the movie he did with Martin sheen a while back. If memory serves me right he even whistled the sash in it. Sound fella right enough and likes the odd gargle.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,660 ✭✭✭armaghlad


    There is Irish culture in NI, which generally speaking is no different than to the rest of Ireland.

    Then there is Unionist culture (which I would probably consider a sub culture of Irish culture). This has various shades ranging from moderate, non-religious types who tend to refer to themselves as Northern Irish as opposed to Irish or British; to the more militant Loyalist types who despise anything Irish and consider themselves lynchpins in the Empire.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,727 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    NI has Gaelic/Celtic culture.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,299 ✭✭✭✭The Backwards Man


    RobertKK wrote: »
    NI has Gaelic/Celtic culture.

    So has most of Northwestern Europe, to be fair.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,097 ✭✭✭Herb Powell


    Was talking with someone a few months ago who reckoned Northern Ireland is closer to Scotland than the rest of Ireland, as that particular brand of Presbyterianism (thinking of Calvin, Knox, etc) is really rooted there. Luther is credited with planting the seeds of the reformation, but if you think about it the real driving force behind protestantism as a whole was these Scottish reformers. It's on a whole other level to anything going on down here.

    Of course, to say that this sums up Northern Ireland as a culture is ignoring a lot, but it is an important part of the region's history and to deny its impact would also be wrong.

    Really interesting discussion, and I think OP is being dismissed to easily by plenty on here who just want some easy internet points.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,124 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    I'd say it's culturally Northern Irish.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,660 ✭✭✭armaghlad


    What is Northern Irish culture?

    I live in NI and I don't know what it is.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭Mr. CooL ICE


    Moved to Anthropology, Sociology & Culture. Please read the charter before posting.


  • Registered Users Posts: 661 ✭✭✭masti123


    armaghlad wrote: »
    What is Northern Irish culture?

    I live in NI and I don't know what it is.

    Look at our accent and the language we use, you'll see both Scottish and Irish Gaelic in there (Ulster scots and Irish). Look at the sports we play here as well, everything from hurling to football to cricket.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,660 ✭✭✭armaghlad


    masti123 wrote: »
    Look at our accent and the language we use, you'll see both Scottish and Irish Gaelic in there (Ulster scots and Irish). Look at the sports we play here as well, everything from hurling to football to cricket.
    Accent? What accent is that? I wouldn't say there is an actual NI accent. To the untrained ear maybe - to be fair there's a very broad accent around Belfast and surrounding areas that people like to refer to as the "northern accent". Though in saying that five of the six counties have similar if not exact accents to neighbouring counties over border.

    As for Ulster Scots, any tangible presence in everyday vernacular is confined to a few small pockets in Antrim, Derry, Donegal and Down.

    Sports, are there any sports that are unique to NI? The aforementioned are played all over the island. In fact GAA is the most popular sport both North and South.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,373 ✭✭✭selous


    I heard somewhere that the "hard" Northern Ireland accent can't pronounce "SIXTH" is that true??


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 963 ✭✭✭Labarbapostiza


    The Scots and the Irish are Gaels. Gaelic was the language of both Scotland and Ireland. If you want to class the ethnic group by language then Scotland and Ireland are ethnically identical.

    The similarities with the neighbouring island, have a lot to do with latitude. Scotland to Northern Ireland is near by sea, as southern Ireland is nearer to England by sea. The cultural transmission back and forth has a lot to do with latitude.

    For thousands of years travelling by boat, was faster and easier than travelling by land.


  • Registered Users Posts: 362 ✭✭EastTyrone


    Hard to know where to come from with this.

    I myself am from Tyrone, many of you may call this "Northern Ireland" however I call it Ireland.

    Myself and people around me are just as Irish as any one from Louth, Donegal, Galway or Kerry.

    I play Gaelic football, I can play the Banjo, flute, tun whistle, Bodhran, and sing Irish songs and even speak Irish, just like many people in any other county in Ireland.

    My people in my community even adhere to Irish culture just like in any other part of Ireland - even upholding many traditions that have been abandoned in the rest of Ireland, it is still common to have people calling in unannounced into houses on their "ceili" telling stories and yarns from days gone by. Other Irish customs we have such as sitting up at wakes are still a common occurrence around us.

    I do think that there is a large cross over however with Scottish customs etc, folk collectors sent from Dublin to my area in the early 1900s remarked that local songs had a lot in common with the songs they collected from the Scottish highlands and Islands, this would correspond with people from the north going to work in Scotland during the summer months as farm hands. However this is not just a "Northern Ireland" issue as it has been well documented that people from Donegal made up a large contingent of these migratory workers. This can also be seen in the "Donegal fiddling style" and dances and tunes which would be popular in around Donegal in fact being variations of Scottish music and dances.

    By claiming Northern Ireland is culturally Scottish is very narrow minded, just remember that Donegal is further north than a lot of "NI". They too have these same cultural differences to the rest of Ireland that you speak of, being from Tyrone but having traveled extensively around Ireland I have commonly been greeted with "Are you from Donegal" mistaking a Tyrone accent for a Donegal accent so one would have to take that as a collective "Ulster difference" rather than a "Northern Ireland" difference, just remember Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal where all colonised during the plantation of Ulster! Not just the 6 counties.

    Yes, there is a large Scottish element in Protestant, Unionist, Loyalist culture in NI, this differs from what Scots would perceive as Scottish culture they in fact would look at their culture as Irish. I know many Protestants who wake their dead just as Catholic "Irish" would - sit up with the corpse etc. and who ceili and all just like the "Irish".

    I would have to say that it is mostly Irish culture in the north, but would have a greater Scottish influence than the rest of Ireland. Just like people can claim for the viking influence in Wexford/ Waterford than the rest of the country.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    The Scots and the Irish are Gaels. Gaelic was the language of both Scotland and Ireland. If you want to class the ethnic group by language then Scotland and Ireland are ethnically identical.

    Not quite, Sir. It is more apposite to say that the Scottii tribe are ALSO Gaels. Historically-speaking the merging of the Scottii from Northern Ireland and the dominance of the language that they brought with them, and the inhabitants of what is now called Scotland, is a recent event, having taken place as late as the 11th C.

    Before the Gaelic-speaking Scottii tribe from Ulster invaded northern Britain, the local language there was a form of Brythonic - the now extinct so-called Pictish, almost certainly a variation of the P-Celtic Brithonic language spoken by the rest of the Greater Britain before the arrival of the Romans, and after they had gone. Today Scottish Gaelic is only spoken by the West coast of Scotland and adjacent islands.

    See - 'The Picts were a tribal confederation of peoples who lived in what is today eastern and northern Scotland during the Late Iron Age and Early Medieval periods. They are thought to have been ethnolinguistically Celtic. Where they lived and what their culture was like can be inferred from the geographical distribution of brochs, Brithonic place name elements, and Pictish stones. Picts are attested to in written records from before the Roman conquest of Britain to the 10th century, when they are thought to have merged with the Gaels. They lived to the north of the rivers Forth and Clyde, and spoke the now-extinct Pictish language, which is thought to have been related to the Brittonic language spoken by the Britons who lived to the south of them.[1]

    Picts are assumed to have been the descendants of the Caledonii and other tribes that were mentioned by Roman historians or on the world map of Ptolemy. Pictland, also called Pictavia by some sources, gradually merged with the Gaelic kingdom of Dál Riata to form the Kingdom of Alba (Scotland). Alba then expanded, absorbing the Brittonic kingdom of Strathclyde and Bernician Lothian, and by the 11th century the Pictish identity had been subsumed into the "Scots" amalgamation of peoples.

    Pictish society was typical of many Iron Age societies in northern Europe, having "wide connections and parallels" with neighbouring groups.[2] Archaeology gives some impression of the society of the Picts. While very little in the way of Pictish writing has survived, Pictish history since the late 6th century is known from a variety of sources, including Bede's Historia ecclesiastica gentis Anglorum, saints' lives such as that of Columba by Adomnán, and various Irish annals.'

    tac


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    selous wrote: »
    I heard somewhere that the "hard" Northern Ireland accent can't pronounce "SIXTH" is that true??
    Yes, they can only say "Two Twelfths".

    Seriously though, there are two quite separate cultures in NI. One is 100% Irish; the other is part Scottish, part Irish, and part its own unique thing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,625 ✭✭✭eire4


    I would say culturally Irish.


  • Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭Fighting leprechaun 20


    I'd say it's culturally Northern Irish.

    What is culturally Northern Irish though ? Northern irish hasnt existed long enough to really develop a culture . Not trying to say you cant consider your self that but l always though the indigenous irish wanted to unite with the rest of Eire . And the scottish planters wanted to claim northern ireland for scotland within the united kingdom just unofficially.


  • Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭Fighting leprechaun 20


    masti123 wrote: »
    Look at our accent and the language we use, you'll see both Scottish and Irish Gaelic in there (Ulster scots and Irish). Look at the sports we play here as well, everything from hurling to football to cricket.

    To be fair the "northern ireland accent" isnt exclusive to northern ireland quite a few similar if not identical accents in the rest of Ireland.


  • Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭Fighting leprechaun 20


    The Scots and the Irish are Gaels. Gaelic was the language of both Scotland and Ireland. If you want to class the ethnic group by language then Scotland and Ireland are ethnically identical.

    The similarities with the neighbouring island, have a lot to do with latitude. Scotland to Northern Ireland is near by sea, as southern Ireland is nearer to England by sea. The cultural transmission back and forth has a lot to do with latitude.

    For thousands of years travelling by boat, was faster and easier than travelling by land.

    by majority 95% of scotland was pictish not gealic . Most scottish planters who invaded ulster were of scots germanic ancestry . Historically ulster has always had the most in common with the rest of ireland which is reflected in myth sport ect . Such as cu chuliann and Ferdia brothers from different provinces of Ireland. Its more like a couple of western isles had more in common with ireland than the rest of northern britian .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭Avatar MIA


    To be fair the "northern ireland accent" isnt exclusive to northern ireland quite a few similar if not identical accents in the rest of Ireland.

    Some similarity in Donegal alright, but Northern Ireland accents are VERY distinct and very different from most of Ireland or Britain. And most people could tell the difference between a Donegal accent (Packie Bonner) and NI accents.


  • Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭Fighting leprechaun 20


    EastTyrone wrote: »
    Hard to know where to come from with this.

    I myself am from Tyrone, many of you may call this "Northern Ireland" however I call it Ireland.

    Myself and people around me are just as Irish as any one from Louth, Donegal, Galway or Kerry.

    I play Gaelic football, I can play the Banjo, flute, tun whistle, Bodhran, and sing Irish songs and even speak Irish, just like many people in any other county in Ireland.

    My people in my community even adhere to Irish culture just like in any other part of Ireland - even upholding many traditions that have been abandoned in the rest of Ireland, it is still common to have people calling in unannounced into houses on their "ceili" telling stories and yarns from days gone by. Other Irish customs we have such as sitting up at wakes are still a common occurrence around us.

    I do think that there is a large cross over however with Scottish customs etc, folk collectors sent from Dublin to my area in the early 1900s remarked that local songs had a lot in common with the songs they collected from the Scottish highlands and Islands, this would correspond with people from the north going to work in Scotland during the summer months as farm hands. However this is not just a "Northern Ireland" issue as it has been well documented that people from Donegal made up a large contingent of these migratory workers. This can also be seen in the "Donegal fiddling style" and dances and tunes which would be popular in around Donegal in fact being variations of Scottish music and dances.

    By claiming Northern Ireland is culturally Scottish is very narrow minded, just remember that Donegal is further north than a lot of "NI". They too have these same cultural differences to the rest of Ireland that you speak of, being from Tyrone but having traveled extensively around Ireland I have commonly been greeted with "Are you from Donegal" mistaking a Tyrone accent for a Donegal accent so one would have to take that as a collective "Ulster difference" rather than a "Northern Ireland" difference, just remember Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal where all colonised during the plantation of Ulster! Not just the 6 counties.

    Yes, there is a large Scottish element in Protestant, Unionist, Loyalist culture in NI, this differs from what Scots would perceive as Scottish culture they in fact would look at their culture as Irish. I know many Protestants who wake their dead just as Catholic "Irish" would - sit up with the corpse etc. and who ceili and all just like the "Irish".

    I would have to say that it is mostly Irish culture in the north, but would have a greater Scottish influence than the rest of Ireland. Just like people can claim for the viking influence in Wexford/ Waterford than the rest of the country.

    *just remember Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal where all colonised during the plantation of Ulster*

    Yes of course but to a much lesser degree which is why those areas have never been much of a problem . I live near ulster and I regularly visit cavan and I've never seen anyone exhibit orange or scottish/english culture.or loyalist tendencies for that matter .


  • Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭Fighting leprechaun 20


    Avatar MIA wrote: »
    Some similarity in Donegal alright, but Northern Ireland accents are VERY distinct and very different from most of Ireland or Britain. And most people could tell the difference between a Donegal accent (Packie Bonner) and NI accents.

    Eh l wouldnt say that l dont think the british or americans can tell the difference . I remember a friend of mine who was from northern ireland would get tormented by these scottish tories who just couldnt tell the difference .most countys of ireland have quite different accents to be fair. Maybe northern ireland accent was influnced by the scottish planters but so what dublin accent was influnced by the english and is much more unique.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,306 Mod ✭✭✭✭mzungu


    Eh l wouldnt say that l dont think the british or americans can tell the difference . I remember a friend of mine who was from northern ireland would get tormented by these scottish tories who just couldnt tell the difference .most countys of ireland have quite different accents to be fair. Maybe northern ireland accent was influnced by the scottish planters but so what dublin accent was influnced by the english and is much more unique.
    A Scottish influence is there alright. Interesting piece about it here:
    Northern Ireland

    Accents and Dialects of Northern Ireland

    The Plantation of Ulster that began in 1609 was a planned process of settlement aimed at preventing further rebellion among the population in the north of Ireland. This part of the island was at that time virtually exclusively Gaelic-speaking and had shown the greatest resistance to English colonisation. From the early seventeenth century onwards, Irish lands were confiscated and given to British settlers — or ‘planters’ — who arrived in increasing numbers, bringing the English Language with them. Large numbers of settlers came from southwest Scotland and thus spoke a Scots dialect, while the remaining settlers came predominantly from the north and Midlands of England. By 1830, for instance, Londonderry had a population that was 25% Scots, 25% English and 50% Irish.

    Diverse influences

    For some considerable time the colonists remained surrounded by Gaelic-speaking communities in County Donegal to the west and the counties of Louth, Monaghan and Cavan to the south. Thus English in the northeast of the island developed in relative isolation from other English-speaking areas such as Dublin, while the political situation over the course of the twentieth century has meant that Northern Ireland has continued to develop a linguistic tradition that is distinct from the rest of Ireland. Scots, Irish Gaelic, seventeenth century English and Hiberno-English (the English spoken in the Republic of Ireland) have all influenced the development of Northern Irish English, and this mixture explains the very distinctive hybrid that has emerged.

    Distinctive sounds

    Speech in the whole of Ireland is for instance rhotic - that is speakers pronounce an <r> sound after a vowel in words like farm, first and better. The pronunciation of this <r> sound is, however, much more like the sound we hear in an English West Country accent than the ‘tapped’ or ‘rolled’ <r> sound we associate with Scottish speakers. On the other hand the vowel system of Northern Irish English more closely resembles that of Scottish English, rather than the English of England, Wales or the Republic of Ireland. Pairs such as pull and pool are often homophones, boot frequently rhymes with foot and phrases such as good food are pronounced with vowels of equal length in Belfast and Glasgow, for instance, but not in Dublin, London or Cardiff. Many speakers - particularly older speakers in rural communities — retain pronunciations that are a throwback to much older, conservative forms of English, such as inserting a <y> sound after an initial <k> or <g> in words like car and garden, such that they sound a little like ‘kyarr’ or ‘gyarrden’. Northern Irish English also has a very distinctive intonation pattern and a broad Northern Irish accent is characterised by a very noticeable tendency to raise the pitch towards the end of an utterance, even if the speaker is not asking a question.

    As in Scotland, some speakers claim to speak a dialect (or language, depending on one’s point of view) that traces its roots back to the earliest Scottish settlers — Ulster Scots. Ulster Scots has been recognised by the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages and, although there is no attempt to classify it as a language in The Good Friday agreement of 1998, Ulster Scots is cited as ‘part of the cultural wealth of the island of Ireland'.

    Link: http://www.bl.uk/learning/langlit/sounds/find-out-more/northern-ireland/


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  • Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭Fighting leprechaun 20


    mzungu wrote: »
    A Scottish influence is there alright. Interesting piece about it here:

    But again as l said the dublin accent is more unique and no one would consider them different than the rest of ireland . The cork and galway accent are probably the original accents spoken here before english and scottish plantations/invasion .


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