Enda Kenny to make irish optional?

An gal gréine · 10-02-2011 3:13pm

One more stat is that 93% of the country want to revive the Irish language...E.S.R.I.

SeanMadd · 10-02-2011 5:38pm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Utter hypocrisy. "I can't speak it but schoolgoers must learn it" You do realise they only want to make it optional for leaving cert? So schoolkids will still be learning it. Jesus wept.

No subject should be mandatory for leaving cert. It should be a preparation for university/working life. You learn enough English and Maths at Junior cert level to cover you for nearly all college courses and jobs.

If you wanted to do engineering/physics or english literature/journalism at third level you wouldn't be the type of person who'd drop maths or english.

Bloody fear of change in this country is shocking.

I only realized it would be optional for leaving certs only after I posted it, so you can see my post above. I'm still learning it, just so you know.

EricPraline · 11-02-2011 5:50pm

An gal gréine wrote: »

One more stat is that 93% of the country want to revive the Irish language...E.S.R.I.

I'd certainly count myself among that 93%. However I don't believe that compelling people to learn the language is the correct way to revive it.

An gal gréine · 11-02-2011 9:30pm

I never fancied it when I was compelled to go to school and particularly to learn obscure mathematical conundrums but like everybody else I had to go and endure it.
As has been said it is the curicullum that has to be and can be overhauled.

KylieWyley · 11-02-2011 9:39pm

Curriculum needs to be overhauled.

Gaelscoils teach it as a language should be taught - the pupils live the language. Non-gaeilge primary schools tend to just drill it in with very little context. As a result, there is a massive gap in knowledge/ability when pupils enter secondary school and this causes problems.

onemorechance · 11-02-2011 9:41pm

300 blian ó shin bhí Gaeilge mar príomh theanga na tíre seo. Mar gheall ar an plandáil agus ansin gnó, dlí irl. á ndéanamh trí béarla, agus ansin an gorta mór, d'athriagh sé sin.

Anois tá an teanga imigh chomh mór go gceapann go leor daoine go bfhuil sé básaigh. Tá go leor eile ag caith anuas ar an teanga agus ag iarraidh é a scriosadh uilig.

Tá go leor cosúlachtaí idir plandáil Éireann agus Iosrael ag bogadh Iosraelaigh isteach ar talamh na na Palaistínigh.

Méastú an mbeidh na Palaistínigh ag caith anuas ar an teanga Arabach i gceann 300 blian i bhfabhar Eabhraise?

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2010\12\24\story_24-12-2010_pg3_5

CG328 · 12-02-2011 10:33pm

There is a 'agóid chiúin' i.e silent protest taking place outside the Dáil on Monday at 12.30 to protest against Fianna Gael's plan....

Gael · 12-02-2011 11:44pm

An interesting letter on the subject was published in the Indo today.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/scrap-maths-too-if-irish-is-useless-2537151.html

MathsManiac · 13-02-2011 1:08pm

Gael wrote: »

An interesting letter on the subject was published in the Indo today.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/scrap-maths-too-if-irish-is-useless-2537151.html

Yet another person labouring under the delusion that maths is a compulsory subject. FG's plan is to have the same rule for Irish as applies to maths and English. i.e., compulsory in junior cycle and optional in senior cycle.

Fuinseog · 13-02-2011 2:17pm

SeanMadd wrote: »

Just saw this:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5gf8jm-TLQPjLWIxuJak29bUDxoQA?docId=N0602721297099463953A

Quite frankly I'm kind of saddened by that fact. I really wish Irish was more spoken in Ireland, and although I'm not great myself, I think that everyone should be learning our native language.

Thoughts?

cen fath nach scriobhann tu i nGaeilge? these days there is a lot of good will towards the language, but people still refuse to speak it.

Fuinseog · 13-02-2011 2:18pm

An gal gréine wrote: »

Our thoughts are all on:
http://www.petitiononline.com/gaeilge/petition.html
Over 14,000 now.

Brilliant, over 15,000 today. I hope all these people are all willing to speak the language on a daily basis and not just well wishers.

Fuinseog · 13-02-2011 2:22pm

alejandro1977 wrote: »

You're assuming that forcing everyone to learn it will improve the level of spoken Irish. History has shown that it hasn't.

Think of the lads doing pass/foundation subjects in your school - they would have been much better off getting a better grasp of practical subjects.

For those considering going to University the situation isn't going to change - people in favour of Irish revival are really bad at strategy and picking their battles. The definition of madness is doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different result.

people doing foundation find school in general difficult and should really leave school at 16 and learn a trade.

just like the reunification of Ireland Gaelic revival is half assed. one government department will support it while another will curb its spread. take the notion of more english in Gaelscoileanna.

Gael · 14-02-2011 11:04am

Future of Irish to be made key issue for election - Irish Times

MathsManiac · 14-02-2011 11:30am

An interesting sentence in that article (linked by Gael above):
"Labour leader Eamon Gilmore says his party is committed to the retention of Irish as one of the three core compulsory subjects for the Leaving Certificate."

Since Irish is currently the only compulsory subject in Senior Cycle, I wonder if Mr Gilmore is planning on picking two more to make compulsory.

deise go deo · 14-02-2011 8:16pm

MathsManiac wrote: »

An interesting sentence in that article (linked by Gael above):
"Labour leader Eamon Gilmore says his party is committed to the retention of Irish as one of the three core compulsory subjects for the Leaving Certificate."

Since Irish is currently the only compulsory subject in Senior Cycle, I wonder if Mr Gilmore is planning on picking two more to make compulsory.

We all know that in every school Irish, English and Maths are required subjects.

The argument of those that want to remove Irish as a compulsory Subject is that Compulsion will invariably lead to poor performance and resentment,

As English and Maths are Compulsory in all Schools then the same should follow, should it not?

deirdremf · 14-02-2011 11:40pm

RJGMovie wrote: »

FG are not going far enough. The amount of money wasted on irish in this country is a shame. If it was made optional at all levels there would be more interest in it. This is one of the reasons we have so many migrants taking up the language.

If science was made optional at all levels, less people would do it too. Would the level of science in schools improve then? Would there be more interest in science then?

You know the answers, don't you?

But that isn't the point, as far as I'm concerned.
In my opinion, if more people went to Gaelscoils then the level would improve.
But the government refuses to let people make the choice of sending their kids to a Gaelscoil, by the simple expedient of refusing to recognise new Gaelscoileanna.
If everyone who wanted to send a kid to a gaelscoil had a place guaranteed, there would be little need for all other people to have to learn Irish right up to the leaving cert.
But removing the obligation at this stage without any quid pro quo will only cause greater difficulties down the road for those many people who have not been given the opportunity to go to a gaelscoil, despite their parent's wishes.

deise go deo · 15-02-2011 12:27am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLFsH6zfzzo

Is é an tús.

*EDIT*

It seams that yet another FG election candidate has come out and critised Endas Irish policy.

Brendan Griffin of Kerry south has described the policy as a 'regressive step'

The Fine Gael leader’s proposal has been criticised by language and Gaeltacht community groups. A number of Fine Gael election candidates have also expressed their disquiet at the plan.

Describing the measure as “a regressive step in the development of the language”, Cllr. Brendan Griffin is the latest Fine Gael election candidate to state his concern.

Mr Kenny’s proposal has caused “great worry, upset and annoyance” to many of his constituents and would have “negative cultural and economic implications on a local and national level”, the Kerry South candidate candidate said.

Protest over FG language strategy

I also heard one of John Deasy's (FG TD in Waterford) canvasser complaining about Enda's policy on RnaG during the week, saying that there was no need of it and that they were loosing votes.

Demonique · 15-02-2011 2:32am

SeanMadd wrote: »

Just saw this:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5gf8jm-TLQPjLWIxuJak29bUDxoQA?docId=N0602721297099463953A

Quite frankly I'm kind of saddened by that fact. I really wish Irish was more spoken in Ireland, and although I'm not great myself, I think that everyone should be learning our native language.

Thoughts?

They'll STILL be learning Irish, they're just making it optional for the Leaving Cert

How dare Enda Kenny want to give young people a choice!

number10a · 15-02-2011 12:31pm

I'm wondering would a referendum be required to introduce something like this? The constitution puts Irish as the first language of the country and English as second. Also, there's a whole load of legislation requiring the two languages to be held in equal regard in all aspects of official life - doesn't happen, but anyway that's for another thread

Surely if they make the second language compulsory and the first langugage optional, this has to be unconstitutional?? Anyone know if this would be the case?

um7y1h83ge06nx · 15-02-2011 12:59pm

I always believe choice is good so would support it being compulsory along with Maths and English at senior cycle.

Of course Third-level courses could still make certain subject compulsory for English i.e Maths for Engineering courses, Irish for Primary Teaching.

The teaching of Irish is terribly flawed. I was far poorer at Irish than any other subject. This despite being a A student in other subjects, getting well over 500 points in the Leaving, first class honours degree, distinctions in other courses etc. etc.

Why, If I was strong academically, was I so poor at just one particular subject? In fairness I got a B in Ordinary Level Irish, but Ordinary Level is a cakewalk in comparison to Higher Level.

I think the teaching of Irish is a far bigger issue that needs to be discussed than the whole compulsory issue. I felt I wasn't learning Irish, just getting it shoved down my throat. We were forced to learn pages of stuff off by heart to use as essays in the JC and LC. How pointless is that? If I had a good command of the written and spoken language I could have made these essays up on the fly, just like I did in the French LC exam.

That said I wouldn't mind re-learning Irish again. The problem is that I would also like to study so many other areas, a MBA perhaps, Spanish, brush up on my French etc.

If there was an equivalent of "Bienvenue en France" for Irish that would be brilliant, something friendly and accessible.

An gal gréine · 15-02-2011 3:26pm

Demonique wrote: »

They'll STILL be learning Irish, they're just making it optional for the Leaving Cert

How dare Enda Kenny want to give young people a choice!

If they were given a choice, over their parents' wishes, how many would attend school AT ALL ?

deise go deo · 15-02-2011 5:21pm

This is the responce I got from the adviser of Michael Creed TD on the Issue.

The Deputy understands that the obligatory status of the subject will only be removed after the entire subject is overhauled and verifiable results are to be seen. Then we will enter into consultation with all stakeholders on its status.

As it happens, this is the relevent bit of the FG manifesto.

We believe that reinventing the way we teach Irish will encourage more students to study the language and engage with it beyond the school system. We believe compulsion has not fostered growth or commitment to the language. We will overhaul the curriculum at second level and we will critically examine the effect of current training methods of teachers to teach. Irish as an optional subject for Leaving Certificate will only apply following consultations on both matters

Cork · 15-02-2011 8:05pm

Demonique wrote: »

How dare Enda Kenny want to give young people a choice!

FG seem to want to make the 1st language of this country optional.

Fair play to Eamon O Cuiv bringing in the 20 year statergy, Official Languages Act and more oral emphises for state exams.

FG need to let the above changes a chance to work.

SeanMadd · 15-02-2011 8:12pm

Avi Purple Triathlon wrote: »

I always believe choice is good so would support it being compulsory along with Maths and English at senior cycle.

Of course Third-level courses could still make certain subject compulsory for English i.e Maths for Engineering courses, Irish for Primary Teaching.

The teaching of Irish is terribly flawed. I was far poorer at Irish than any other subject. This despite being a A student in other subjects, getting well over 500 points in the Leaving, first class honours degree, distinctions in other courses etc. etc.

Why, If I was strong academically, was I so poor at just one particular subject? In fairness I got a B in Ordinary Level Irish, but Ordinary Level is a cakewalk in comparison to Higher Level.

I think the teaching of Irish is a far bigger issue that needs to be discussed than the whole compulsory issue. I felt I wasn't learning Irish, just getting it shoved down my throat. We were forced to learn pages of stuff off by heart to use as essays in the JC and LC. How pointless is that? If I had a good command of the written and spoken language I could have made these essays up on the fly, just like I did in the French LC exam.

That said I wouldn't mind re-learning Irish again. The problem is that I would also like to study so many other areas, a MBA perhaps, Spanish, brush up on my French etc.

If there was an equivalent of "Bienvenue en France" for Irish that would be brilliant, something friendly and accessible.

I agree. Learning 5 or 10 stories and poems off by heart does not achieve anything. Also primary school irish should be more emphasized, as I previously said, those books we read back then were useless and the only thing I could say by the time I got to first year was "I maith liom ____".

Maybe if there were more Gaeltachts in the east it would improve the language?(And a lower price wouldn't hurt either, ha!) I'm not sure, but I think they're mostly in the west.

Aimsigh · 15-02-2011 9:33pm

SeanMadd wrote: »

I agree. Learning 5 or 10 stories and poems off by heart does not achieve anything. Also primary school irish should be more emphasized, as I previously said, those books we read back then were useless and the only thing I could say by the time I got to first year was "I maith liom ____".

Maybe if there were more Gaeltachts in the east it would improve the language?(And a lower price wouldn't hurt either, ha!) I'm not sure, but I think they're mostly in the west.

Gaelscoileanna b'fhéidir? Ta a lán gaelscoileanna i mBÁC.

Learscáil

Ach tá ga ann le nios mó.

SeanMadd · 15-02-2011 10:26pm

Aimsigh wrote: »

Gaelscoileanna b'fhéidir? Ta a lán gaelscoileanna i mBÁC.

Learscáil

Ach tá ga ann le nios mó.

Ah, ta brón orm!

Aimsigh · 15-02-2011 10:30pm

SeanMadd wrote: »

Ah, ta brón orm!

Ná bí buartha.

MathsManiac · 15-02-2011 11:05pm

deise go deo wrote: »

We all know that in every school Irish, English and Maths are required subjects.

The argument of those that want to remove Irish as a compulsory Subject is that Compulsion will invariably lead to poor performance and resentment,

As English and Maths are Compulsory in all Schools then the same should follow, should it not?

As I have pointed out in many threads on this topic, if you check the Department of Education regulations, you will see that Irish is the only compulsory subject in senior cycle.

Perhaps one should ask the question: why is it that more students choose to do maths and English for LC, (which are not compulsory) than choose to do Irish (which is).

My point is that the debate about whether or not there is a DES rule that says you have to do Irish is a pointless debate. In any case, the existing rule is so vague that you could satisfy it by having one class a week where you sit watching clips of your favourite soap trí Ghaeilge. It is not departmental rules that really control what people study - it is the third level sector and their entry requirements, along with the expectations of employers.

In my view, therefore, ALL of the attention should be on improving the quality of what happens in the classroom from age 4 to age 16 (or 18 if you like), and the question of whether or not there is a largely irrelevant departmental rule is a distraction.

colmos · 15-02-2011 11:43pm

To be honest, I have to say I'm disgusted to hear that some people still want to force this language down people's throats.

You all argue about this culture crap. I have studied Irish against my will for 14 years, doing the LC this year. I have never used this language outside of school... NEVER. I think it's the biggest waste of time in the educational system. If I didn't have to study this, I could have better spent those years advancing my knowledge of Maths or Sciences. This useless subject has just dragged me back. I despise it. Yet I have to study it for the LC. If I didn't have to do this, I could have studied Physics, Accounting, Geography, Economics or Construction etc.

Do you people have any idea how much more those subjects could have been worth to me? I could have actually applied these subjects in college or later life.

Why must you feel in all of your narrow minded glory that you must force me and others like me to learn this junk? Have you any practical use of the language to suggest? Because cultural excuses are NOT practical.

All I want is that people would actually have the option to choose whether they want to do Irish or not.

WHAT'S WRONG WITH GIVING PEOPLE CHOICE?

It's too late for any changes to happen for me but I do want to help younger people like me who have no interest in this waste of time of a language.

REMEMBER: NO ONE IS TRYING TO KILL YOUR PRECIOUS LANGUAGE, THEY JUST WANT A CHOICE WHETHER TO STUDY IT OR NOT... :mad:

Insect Overlord · 16-02-2011 12:16am

colmos wrote: »

Yet I have to study it for the LC. If I didn't have to do this, I could have studied Physics, Accounting, Geography, Economics or Construction etc.

Do you people have any idea how much more those subjects could have been worth to me? I could have actually applied these subjects in college or later life.

I don't want to sound like a total prick (because I actually understand your point of view) but I have to break it to you that your view of subject-practicality is totally skewed.

Doing Geography/Economics/Physics/etc for the Leaving Cert might give you an edge in your first year of college, but nothing more. By the end of first year you'll nearly always find that the material you covered for the LC was irrelevant to your course, or that your fellow students have caught up with you.

Teachers will exaggerate the importance/relevance/practicality of their subject for as long as they can. And they're right to do that, don't get me wrong! Young students need all the motivation they can get. Alas, this motivation is just as often a cause of unnecessary stress as it is the cause of good results.

The Leaving Cert will be the biggest thing in your life for a year or two. Getting your results should be a big celebration. And then you'll move on and forget all about it. It is not the be all and end all. Sorry for spoiling that surprise for you, but I reckon you needed to be told.

As for a practical use for Irish? Well, there's having a chat with friends, singing new songs, reading some amazing poems and stories, developing a broader philosophical understanding of the nature of society, growing in awareness of how this country came to be how it is today, telling your friends secrets when you don't want non-Irish speakers to understand you, expanding your general linguistic and cognitive abilities...

Enda Kenny to make irish optional?

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