Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all,
Vanilla are planning an update to the site on April 24th (next Wednesday). It is a major PHP8 update which is expected to boost performance across the site. The site will be down from 7pm and it is expected to take about an hour to complete. We appreciate your patience during the update.
Thanks all.

Could Spain become a republic again?

2»

Comments

  • #32
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,359 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Markcheese wrote: »
    I think there can be an advantage to monarchy,( well a constitutional monarchy,with a figurehead monarch ) ,
    It's not having to select a new figurehead during turbulent times , especially in a polarised political environment ..
    In Ireland ,we tend to lurch from centre left to centre right politics so no major party has (so far ) been too distant politically from the president , who's supposed to be apolitical anyway and "above"party politics ... I can't imagine it being like that in Spain .

    That is certainly a problem in France where the President is political - mainly associated with foreign affairs. Also, their politics does lurch from left to right and back again.

    Our President is supposed to be, and to date has been, above politics. It is surprising that the election of President is seen as a political party contest, but the winner is non party. Weird.

    Monarchy is outmoded. It is impossible for us to contemplate reinstating any kind of Ard Ri here. Surely any modern democracy cannot countenance such an affront to equality and equal opportunity where one citizen is elevated to be far above all others - just on an accident of birth.

    All monarchies should be abolished - worldwide.


  • #33
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,050 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Markcheese wrote: »
    I think there can be an advantage to monarchy,( well a constitutional monarchy,with a figurehead monarch ) ,
    It's not having to select a new figurehead during turbulent times , especially in a polarised political environment ..
    In Ireland ,we tend to lurch from centre left to centre right politics so no major party has (so far ) been too distant politically from the president , who's supposed to be apolitical anyway and "above"party politics ... I can't imagine it being like that in Spain .
    It's pretty much exactly like that in Spain. They alternate between centre-left and centre-right governments, with changes coming at an average frequency of maybe 7 or 8 years. Their centre-left governments tend to be a bit further left than ours; that's about the only difference. (That, and the fact that the Spanish king is a somewhat more politically engaged figure than the Irish president, though he takes care to avoid being partisan.)

    I think the problem they are having in Spain right now - and this would be a systemic risk in any monarchy - is that your figurehead head of state always comes from a background and milieu of considerable wealth, status and influence, and can easily develop a sense of entitlement which can lead to, um, errors of judgment and lapses in personal behaviour. And this risk is multiplied by the fact that your figurehead comes with an extended family who share the same characteristic and present the same risk. Not looking at anyone in particular, Andrew.


  • #34
    View
    Registered Users Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭View


    Markcheese wrote: »
    I think there can be an advantage to monarchy,( well a constitutional monarchy,with a figurehead monarch ) ,
    It's not having to select a new figurehead during turbulent times , especially in a polarised political environment ..
    In Ireland ,we tend to lurch from centre left to centre right politics so no major party has (so far ) been too distant politically from the president , who's supposed to be apolitical anyway and "above"party politics ... I can't imagine it being like that in Spain .

    BIB - given that we have never even remotely come close to returning a centre-left plurality, never mind majority, to the Dail, the above is a bizarre statement. Hell, it is even a stretch to claim we have ever (properly) “lurched to the centre”.


  • #35
    Smee_Again
    Registered Users Posts: 1,988 ✭✭✭Smee_Again


    View wrote: »
    BIB - given that we have never even remotely come close to returning a centre-left plurality, never mind majority, to the Dail, the above is a bizarre statement. Hell, it is even a stretch to claim we have ever (properly) “lurched to the centre”.

    Sure Bertie was a socialist.


  • #36
    View
    Registered Users Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭View


    Smee_Again wrote: »
    Sure Bertie was a socialist.

    Of course he was. :-)


  • Advertisement
  • #37
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,292 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    View wrote: »
    BIB - given that we have never even remotely come close to returning a centre-left plurality, never mind majority, to the Dail, the above is a bizarre statement. Hell, it is even a stretch to claim we have ever (properly) “lurched to the centre”.

    I would say that is a matter of opinion. Some would consider all of our political parties left or centre left to some degree. We certainly have no hard right parties. The Dail on average would be left of centre


  • #38
    YellowBucket
    Closed Accounts Posts: 491 ✭✭YellowBucket


    I think it’s possible but Spain is complicated in terms of their relationship with royalty. Most of them don’t care that much but you’ve a hardcore off royalists who would get their nose out of joint over this.

    Also becoming a republic might actually be a very positive move in terms of making the Basques and Catalans feel less uncomfortable, but that’s not necessarily going to sell the idea in Madrid or amongst the PP.

    I spent a year in the north of Spain and in places like Navarra there’s stark contrast between the left and socially progressive types and the conservatives. You encounter a hardcore of religious conservatives, especially in Pamplona. They’ve like Iona Institute crossed with the right wing of the Tory Party and we’re often members of Opus Dei.

    There wasn’t much love lost between them and the Basques, who by and large were far more secular and socially progressive.

    In some ways it was a bit like the divide between Sinn Fein and One Nation Tories or even the DUP.

    So I don’t know if you could ever get a modern Spanish republic over the line. It’s a lot more complex than it looks from the outside.

    There’s also an extreme reluctance to discuss anything about the dictatorship era and there’s a tendency to just want to keep a lid on anything too dramatic. Kinda let sleeping dogs lie approach to it.


  • #39
    YellowBucket
    Closed Accounts Posts: 491 ✭✭YellowBucket


    Markcheese wrote: »
    I think there can be an advantage to monarchy,( well a constitutional monarchy,with a figurehead monarch ) ,
    It's not having to select a new figurehead during turbulent times , especially in a polarised political environment ..
    In Ireland ,we tend to lurch from centre left to centre right politics so no major party has (so far ) been too distant politically from the president , who's supposed to be apolitical anyway and "above"party politics ... I can't imagine it being like that in Spain .

    We don’t lurch from left to right in Ireland. It’s actually probably the most centrist country in Western Europe. The U.K., a constitutional monarchy, lurches from Tory to Labour and has had significant periods where the those lurches have been huge. Take a look at the 1970s when Labour was very left and the response was Margaret Thatcher!

    Or more recently Corbynist labour vs May or Johnson!

    Belgium has very far right and left politics and a massive ethnic divide. It’s a constitutional monarchy.

    The main issue you’ll see is that countries with functioning proportional representation systems tend to be more consensus building in politics.

    Spain itself is divided between left and right FAR more dramatically than Ireland and those divides have been getting deeper in recent years with less and less common ground between the PP and socialists, especially after the economic crash and you’ve also seen the rise of Podemos and Vox.


    France, the U.K., the USA etc are first past the post (modified a bit by two rounds in France) but the result is left to right swings or very polarised arguments between parties trying to take all the power in a majoritarian system.


  • #40
    Smee_Again
    Registered Users Posts: 1,988 ✭✭✭Smee_Again


    View wrote: »
    Of course he was. :-)

    Bertie wouldn’t lie.


  • #41
    An Ciarraioch
    Registered Users Posts: 5,798 ✭✭✭An Ciarraioch


    YellowBucket wrote: »
    I think it’s possible but Spain is complicated in terms of their relationship with royalty. Most of them don’t care that much but you’ve a hardcore off royalists who would get their nose out of joint over this.

    Also becoming a republic might actually be a very positive move in terms of making the Basques and Catalans feel less uncomfortable, but that’s not necessarily going to sell the idea in Madrid or amongst the PP.

    I spent a year in the north of Spain and in places like Navarra there’s stark contrast between the left and socially progressive types and the conservatives. You encounter a hardcore of religious conservatives, especially in Pamplona. They’ve like Iona Institute crossed with the right wing of the Tory Party and we’re often members of Opus Dei.

    There wasn’t much love lost between them and the Basques, who by and large were far more secular and socially progressive.

    In some ways it was a bit like the divide between Sinn Fein and One Nation Tories or even the DUP.

    So I don’t know if you could ever get a modern Spanish republic over the line. It’s a lot more complex than it looks from the outside.

    There’s also an extreme reluctance to discuss anything about the dictatorship era and there’s a tendency to just want to keep a lid on anything too dramatic. Kinda let sleeping dogs lie approach to it.

    Ironically, the Navarrese are actually Basque themselves (both the PNV and Bildu campaign in both regions), but their more conservative and more unionist tendency dates all the way back to the Carlist wars of the 19th century between rival branches of the Bourbons.


  • Advertisement
  • #42
    chrisd2019
    Registered Users Posts: 432 ✭✭chrisd2019


    View wrote: »
    Of course he was. :-)

    And one without a bank account while in charge of the finances in a banana republic !


  • #43
    View
    Registered Users Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭View


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    I would say that is a matter of opinion. Some would consider all of our political parties left or centre left to some degree. We certainly have no hard right parties. The Dail on average would be left of centre

    No it really isn’t just “a matter of opinion”. All of our major parties (ie non-one man and his dog parties) have track records on voting at both domestic and EU level.

    Particularly in the latter case, it is clear which (EU level) political parties they belong to and, unsurprisingly, our parties’/MEPs’ voting records corresponds to their fellow parties’/MEPs’ from around the EU. There is certainly no evidence that our MEPs are regarded as being in the wrong political parties by their fellow (party) MEPs from the rest of the EU.

    As such it is wrong to claim that “the Dail on average is left of centre”, unless that is your personal definition of the political “centre” is that it is or should be somewhere to the right of Genghis Khan.


  • #44
    An Ciarraioch
    Registered Users Posts: 5,798 ✭✭✭An Ciarraioch


    Indeed, but FF have generally migrated around the centrist/right European groupings, rather than being liberals per se - largely joining up with Gaullists for the first 25 years, and even in a Eurosceptic group for the following ten, before being admitted to the Liberals:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fianna_Fáil#In_European_institutions


Advertisement