Penalty points on a learner permit

Airyfairy12 · 28-02-2021 3:08pm #1

Can anyone give advice please?
I was driving today from a country road onto a main road from a junction. There was no other cars on the road besides an unmarked garda car that was far away from me as I was turning onto the road. The guards pulled me over and said I drove out in front of them and said i'll get a fine and penalty points on my license and the fine is doubled because im a learner, I was easily able to pull out and drive before they caught up with me so no chance of me being to close to them before I pulled out. I had a full license driver with me in the car.
How many points am I looking at and can I repeal this? Also, how will this effect my insurance? It already costs me nearly 2k because im a learner.

Thanks

sirmixalot · 28-02-2021 3:18pm

Did they say what the points were for though? I.e dangerous driving? I had similar on a learner license on a motorbike, was speeding and not wearing an L vest, got 3 points for speeding + 80 fine, another 80 fine for mot having vest, that was it, insurance were fine with it.as in it didn't go up but some insurers are arsey about points on a learner.

Airyfairy12 · 28-02-2021 3:23pm

sirmixalot wrote: »

Did they say what the points were for though? I.e dangerous driving? I had similar on a learner license on a motorbike, was speeding and not wearing an L vest, got 3 points for speeding + 80 fine, another 80 fine for mot having vest, that was it, insurance were fine with it.as in it didn't go up but some insurers are arsey about points on a learner.

She said the points were for pulling out infront of her, that was all she said. I had L plates, wasnt speeding, had seatbelt on..

Witcher · 28-02-2021 4:07pm

Was it a yield junction and did you slow to observe the road or fly out onto the main road?

Airyfairy12 · 28-02-2021 4:10pm

Witcher wrote: »

Was it a yield junction and did you slow to observe the road or fly out onto the main road?

There was no yeild sign and I didnt drive fast, I was slow getting onto the main road, I was stopped before driving out.

biko · 28-02-2021 4:43pm

We can argue back and forth but at the end of the day it's the garda against you. It's unlikely they stopped you just for the craic.
Did the accompanying person you were with say anything?

con747 · 28-02-2021 5:05pm

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

There was no yeild sign and I didnt drive fast, I was slow getting onto the main road, I was stopped before driving out.

You say you were "slow getting onto the main road". a car can travel a lot of distance in a few seconds and you do not know if the garda car had to brake suddenly because of that. Also ask yourself if it was a marked garda car would you have pulled out?

Vestiapx · 28-02-2021 5:12pm

See this is an issue I have, if you have to have a licensed driver with you then there is an understanding that you are learning. If what you did was dangerous as opposed to simply careless then I'd have thought that a warning to the full driver to make sure they keep you in check would be suitable. Otherwise what is the point of the fully licensed person accompanying you?

Airyfairy12 · 28-02-2021 7:02pm

con747 wrote: »

You say you were "slow getting onto the main road". a car can travel a lot of distance in a few seconds and you do not know if the garda car had to brake suddenly because of that. Also ask yourself if it was a marked garda car would you have pulled out?

I was already driving close to the speed limit by the time they got close enough to pull me over, the main road was wide and straight too so they would of had no problem seeing me ahead of them on the road.

TherapyBoy · 28-02-2021 7:27pm

Did they have to react in any way or slow down because you pulled out? If they didn’t need to make any major adjustments it does sound harsh to have pulled you in like this.

km991148 · 28-02-2021 7:32pm

I was fully expecting this to be typical Irish situation of driving unaccompanied.. but to get anything other than a warning for pulling out when actually learning, with the proper set up (assuming proper learner plates etc as well) seems very harsh.

Any other issues? Any argument etc? What was the charge? Seems very strange indeed and I think I'd potentially be speaking to a solicitor in this case or at least going to court depending on the charge.

km991148 · 28-02-2021 7:34pm

con747 wrote: »

You say you were "slow getting onto the main road". a car can travel a lot of distance in a few seconds and you do not know if the garda car had to brake suddenly because of that. Also ask yourself if it was a marked garda car would you have pulled out?

The first point: absolutely, but it's a learner.. takes time to learn, but if course the accompanying driver should prevent such an incident.

Good point in the second re marked/unmarked.

km991148 · 28-02-2021 7:35pm

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

She said the points were for pulling out infront of her, that was all she said. I had L plates, wasnt speeding, had seatbelt on..

Don't you get a written ticket (for whatever the offence was) these days?

the_pen_turner · 28-02-2021 7:40pm

con747 wrote: »

You say you were "slow getting onto the main road". a car can travel a lot of distance in a few seconds and you do not know if the garda car had to brake suddenly because of that. Also ask yourself if it was a marked garda car would you have pulled out?

thats not a fair reflect on whether it was safe to pull out or not.
im driving 10 with full licence , no points , no accidents etc. i like most would cnsider myself a good driver.
if i was stopped at a t junction and saw a garda car coming i would let it off. better to have the guard infront than behind. you never know when you will meet a guard in a bad mood or with a bee in their bonnet about something and do you for nothing or very little

Airyfairy12 · 28-02-2021 7:42pm

No I didnt get a ticket and no argument happened, I have a diagnosed anxiety disorder and froze when she came over to speak to me, I hate confrontation so didnt say much at all to her, just apologized.
I had L plates, fully insured, taxed & nct, there where no other issues. They wouldnt of had to suddenly break at all, they where a fair bit away from me when I pulled out so would have seen me from where they were.
The accompanying driver has 30 years experience and is very vigilant, he would have told me not to go ahead.

28-02-2021 7:42pm

km991148 wrote: »

Don't you get a written ticket (for whatever the offence was) these days?

You do not, haven't for years.

You can appeal it OP, by not paying the fine or accepting the points, you'll then get a court summons where you can plead your case there.

Mjolnir · 28-02-2021 7:48pm

Technically speaking according to the road traffic general bye laws, when joining a road you have to give way to traffic already on that road.
So technically the guard is correct, however its very harsh and unless you were driving wrecklessly, then either letting it go or a warning would have been better served.

Let's be honest we all use our judgement in that situation.
If you can see the car you technically have to give way and you either caught someone on a bad day or who is a stickler on the rules of the road.

You could approach a solicitor and go to court on the date to try have it struck out but ultimately without evidence it is your word vs the guard.

Remember paying the fine is an admission of guilt.

con747 · 28-02-2021 7:48pm

the_pen_turner wrote: »

thats not a fair reflect on whether it was safe to pull out or not.
im driving 10 with full licence , no points , no accidents etc. i like most would cnsider myself a good driver.
if i was stopped at a t junction and saw a garda car coming i would let it off. better to have the guard infront than behind. you never know when you will meet a guard in a bad mood or with a bee in their bonnet about something and do you for nothing or very little

The OP stated they "were slow to pull out" and "was close to the speed limit by the time they got close enough to pull me over" which to me means the garda car had to slow down because they pulled out. Possibly not, who knows. It could have been a garda in a bad mood. I also would always let a marked garda car go ahead if pulling out.

km991148 · 28-02-2021 8:13pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You do not, haven't for years.

You can appeal it OP, by not paying the fine or accepting the points, you'll then get a court summons where you can plead your case there.

Ye, I thought you still did if you got pulled over.. showing my age a bit!!

I guess you get something through the door tho and it will have the purpose on it?

the_pen_turner · 28-02-2021 8:18pm

con747 wrote: »

The OP stated they "were slow to pull out" and "was close to the speed limit by the time they got close enough to pull me over" which to me means the garda car had to slow down because they pulled out. Possibly not, who knows. It could have been a garda in a bad mood. I also would always let a marked garda car go ahead if pulling out.

i interpreted the slow pulling out to mean they were stopped and then pulled out rather than just pulled out without stopping which would be faster.

Oscar Madison · 28-02-2021 8:20pm

Did you stop at the stop sign on the junction or did you just keep going?

Airyfairy12 · 28-02-2021 8:21pm

Oscar Madison wrote: »

Did you stop at the stop sign on the junction or did you just keep going?

I was stopped. I cut out at the stop and had to restart so was slow pulling out.

DriveSkill · 28-02-2021 8:22pm

If it happened just as you described then it seems very,very harsh. Unless you pulled out in a manner to cause the other car to brake hard then I dont really see a big issue (given that you are a learner) - if it was close to causing a collision I would expect immediate horn/lights/siren to indicate they wanted you to stop there and then.
By letter of the law of course you have to yield to traffic on the main road and that means not causing them to adjust their position or speed based on your action but as a learner it is inevitable that you will make mistakes, be slower moving out, possibly stall in the middle of a junction etc - that is the whole point of the L-Plates to let other drivers know that you still learning. The accompanying driver should be helping you to assess the speed of other traffic and understand your level of confidence and car control to advise whether to wait or not. If every learner was given penalty points for every mistake they made very few would have a clean licence!
Seems like you dont have the details of the guard who stopped you but if you do end up getting a letter in the post maybe go have a chat in the station and try to understand what exactly you did wrong. Unfortunately if the guard sticks with their interpretation of the event you are unlikely to win any appeal.

Airyfairy12 · 28-02-2021 8:29pm

DriveSkill wrote: »

If it happened just as you described then it seems very,very harsh. Unless you pulled out in a manner to cause the other car to brake hard then I dont really see a big issue (given that you are a learner) - if it was close to causing a collision I would expect immediate horn/lights/siren to indicate they wanted you to stop there and then.
By letter of the law of course you have to yield to traffic on the main road and that means not causing them to adjust their position or speed based on your action but as a learner it is inevitable that you will make mistakes, be slower moving out, possibly stall in the middle of a junction etc - that is the whole point of the L-Plates to let other drivers know that you still learning. The accompanying driver should be helping you to assess the speed of other traffic and understand your level of confidence and car control to advise whether to wait or not. If every learner was given penalty points for every mistake they made very few would have a clean licence!
Seems like you dont have the details of the guard who stopped you but if you do end up getting a letter in the post maybe go have a chat in the station and try to understand what exactly you did wrong. Unfortunately if the guard sticks with their interpretation of the event you are unlikely to win any appeal.

Thanks, im by no means a perfect driver and I make mistakes, the reason I was driving country roads & the main road I was adjoining was because I was out practicing, knowing on a Sunday the roads would be a bit quieter and my driving instructor told me to book my test last time I had a driving lesson so im not totally incompetent on the road.
There where no other cars on the road at all and the guards were a good long distance away from me, more than enough for them to see me and not have to break, there was no chance of any collision happening.

User1998 · 28-02-2021 8:32pm

If you and your accompanying driver both believe that what the Garda did was too harsh, then I would go to court with your accompanying driver and explain the situation to the judge. Theres a chance the Garda won’t show up and it would get struck out but if they do show up surely the judge would at least decrease your penalty? They’d hardly increase it so its definitely worth a shot imo

You did mention you have anxiety so this may not be an option for you, but perhaps you could approach a solicitor

Mjolnir · 28-02-2021 8:33pm

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Thanks, im by no means a perfect driver and I make mistakes, the reason I was driving country roads & the main road I was adjoining was because I was out practicing, knowing on a Sunday the roads would be a bit quieter and my driving instructor told me to book my test last time I had a driving lesson so im not totally incompetent on the road.
There where no other cars on the road at all and the guards were a good long distance away from me, more than enough for them to see me and not have to break, there was no chance of any collision happening.

We all do it but as I stated that makes little difference by the letter of the law they have right of way and if you can see them you have to yield to them. As far as the guard is concerned you failed to yield right of way, you could go to the station and have a chat with them it may be a case they were having a bad day.

However as far as the guard is concerned if they can see you, you should see them and yield to them as they have right of way.

Airyfairy12 · 28-02-2021 8:36pm

Mjolnir wrote: »

We all do it but as I stated that makes little difference by the letter of the law they have right of way and if you can see them you have to yield to them. As far as the guard is concerned you failed to yield right of way, you could go to the station and have a chat with them it may be a case they were having a bad day.

However as far as the guard is concerned if they can see you, you should see them and yield to them as they have right of way.

Thanks, I didnt know this, I was under the impression that if theres a safe distance between you and the car on the road you can proceed. Ive drove that road with my driving instructor and with fully licensed drivers and have always drove onto the road when cars where a safe distance away.

As for speaking to the guard she had a really bad attitude, she was very confrontational & defensive I wouldnt feel comfortable going in to speak to her. When the accompanying driver tried talking to her she wouldnt answer him.

newmember2 · 28-02-2021 8:38pm

OP what was the speed limit of the road you were joining and how far away approximately from the junction was the garda car when you pulled out onto the road?

Mjolnir · 28-02-2021 8:40pm

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Thanks, I didnt know this, I was under the impression that if theres a safe distance between you and the car on the road you can proceed. Ive drove that road with my driving instructor and with fully licensed drivers and have always drove onto the road when cars where a safe distance away.

It's one of those things, for natural progression of traffic we all do it, that bye law is from 64 there's a lot more cars on the road today than then.
99.9% of the time it's grand.
You were unlucky is the sad reality. I'd chance having a chat with them.
I was practicing for the bike test and had my mate shouting at me not to dare pull out if I can see a car regardless how far away they are ( I have an awful tendency to do that).
It's a letter of the law vs practicality thing.

Government buildings · 28-02-2021 8:45pm

You would think that the guard would be a little less harsh considering this lad is a learner driver. The guard could have left him off with a caution instead of putting the poor lad through all this anxiety.

Airyfairy12 · 28-02-2021 8:46pm

Mjolnir wrote: »

It's one of those things, for natural progression of traffic we all do it, that bye law is from 64 there's a lot more cars on the road today than then.
99.9% of the time it's grand.
You were unlucky is the sad reality. I'd chance having a chat with them.
I was practicing for the bike test and had my mate shouting at me not to dare pull out if I can see a car regardless how far away they are ( I have an awful tendency to do that).
It's a letter of the law vs practicality thing.

As I drove back into town I passed them & they had pulled over some cyclists on the street, looked like they were out to get people for anything today.
A warning would have sufficed, even a fine but penalty points will be on my license for 3 years & effect my insurance.

Penalty points on a learner permit

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