Club head speed

MarcusP12 · 22-01-2021 2:42pm

GreeBo wrote: »

If my 2 putt percentage from 30 feet is 80% and 70% from 40 feet, and I have maybe 1 putt from either range over 5 rounds, then the colour of my socks has more significance to my score.

good point!!

ShivasIrons · 22-01-2021 2:51pm

GreeBo wrote: »

:P

True, but this is also true.

However causation vs correlation is always going to rear its ugly head.

Whats clear to me is that the lower your handicap the more you can benefit from distance, but distance wont necessarily lower your handicap.

You are incorrect distance will lower your handicap. Go look for the data, Mark Broadie etc.

DuckSlice · 22-01-2021 3:48pm

ShivasIrons wrote: »

You are incorrect distance will lower your handicap. Go look for the data, Mark Broadie etc.

I think its fairer to say more distance gives you more potential to have a lower handicap but does not guarantee it. I have Mark Broadie's book on PDF I keep meaning to read it.

ShivasIrons · 22-01-2021 4:08pm

etxp wrote: »

I think its fairer to say more distance gives you more potential to have a lower handicap but does not guarantee it. I have Mark Broadie's book on PDF I keep meaning to read it.

No that's not true if you take any golfer in their current form and add distance to them 10+ yards they will lower their scores, 25 yards means a big jump in performance. Distance guarantees lower scores

MarcusP12 · 22-01-2021 4:16pm

ShivasIrons wrote: »

No that's not true if you take any golfer in their current form and add distance to them 10+ yards they will lower their scores, 25 yards means a big jump in performance. Distance guarantees lower scores

You can't say that distance guarantees lower scores without qualifying it to include accuracy also.....if i'm ropey with a driver and somehow manage to swing harder to gain 10+ yds am i going to lower my score? maybe, yes, but guaranteed, no.....thats too much of a stretch....if maybe i can squeeze an extra 10+ yds and use it wisely on lower risk holes then i'd say i'd have a good chance of doing better alright but its not black and white or guaranteed....that extra yardage might get me in more trouble on riskier holes if i don't work on my straightness as well.....

monkeybutter · 22-01-2021 4:27pm

MarcusP12 wrote: »

You can't say that distance guarantees lower scores without qualifying it to include accuracy also.....if i'm ropey with a driver and somehow manage to swing harder to gain 10+ yds am i going to lower my score? maybe, yes, but guaranteed, no.....thats too much of a stretch....if maybe i can squeeze an extra 10+ yds and use it wisely on lower risk holes then i'd say i'd have a good chance of doing better alright but its not black and white or guaranteed....that extra yardage might get me in more trouble on riskier holes if i don't work on my straightness as well.....

there's no explaining it to some people its proximity its like adding distance doesn't come at a cost if you can add distance and not lose accuracy then fine, thats essentially what he just said in the last post which contradicted what he said earlier

ShivasIrons · 22-01-2021 4:32pm

MarcusP12 wrote: »

You can't say that distance guarantees lower scores without qualifying it to include accuracy also.....if i'm ropey with a driver and somehow manage to swing harder to gain 10+ yds am i going to lower my score? maybe, yes, but guaranteed, no.....thats too much of a stretch....if maybe i can squeeze an extra 10+ yds and use it wisely on lower risk holes then i'd say i'd have a good chance of doing better alright but its not black and white or guaranteed....that extra yardage might get me in more trouble on riskier holes if i don't work on my straightness as well.....

If you add 10 yards you will lower your scores, the closer you are to the hole the easier golf is. How much accuracy do you think you will lose by swinging 4-5mph faster? That's what 10 yards is.

What this thread shows is that many golfers have no idea what it takes to get better and are happy to throw a whole pile of mud against a wall hoping that some of it will stick.

MarcusP12 · 22-01-2021 4:43pm

ShivasIrons wrote: »

If you add 10 yards you will lower your scores, the closer you are to the hole the easier golf is. How much accuracy do you think you will lose by swinging 4-5mph faster? That's what 10 yards is.

What this thread shows is that many golfers have no idea what it takes to get better and are happy to throw a whole pile of mud against a wall hoping that some of it will stick.

now you're just being condescending.....you've no idea what experience or knowledge me (i could surprise you for example on my own pedigree) or anyone else on here has as a golfer so maybe ease up on that? I for one am just trying to have a healthy debate about a topic that fascinates me so if i challenge an opinion doesnt mean i'm dismissing it for example....

I made the point earlier that its actually hard enough for gain an extra 5 of so mph.....its not as easy as it sounds if you already feel you're swinging close to you limit of control....

The one thing that keeps going around in my head with the simplistic view some people make about distance for amature handicappers who are not elite is "jees, why didn't i think of swing a bit harder all these years, sounds like i'd automatically score better....(don't need to worry about the accuracy so happy days!).....golf is so simple!"

Note as well i haven't dismissed any argument which are reasoned and go beyond distance = better score as i believe either has merit but its not black and white.....

gypsy79 · 22-01-2021 4:57pm

GreeBo wrote: »

:P

True, but this is also true.

However causation vs correlation is always going to rear its ugly head.

Whats clear to me is that the lower your handicap the more you can benefit from distance, but distance wont necessarily lower your handicap.

Sorry a statistician and golfer is calling BS on that graph. Not enough outliers. It would be a very interesting graph to properly compile

But I smell data fixing in that one

blue note · 22-01-2021 5:03pm

ShivasIrons wrote: »

If you add 10 yards you will lower your scores, the closer you are to the hole the easier golf is. How much accuracy do you think you will lose by swinging 4-5mph faster? That's what 10 yards is.

What this thread shows is that many golfers have no idea what it takes to get better and are happy to throw a whole pile of mud against a wall hoping that some of it will stick.

So if you gain distance and sacrafice nothing you'll be better? That's not very surprising. I suspect if you gain accuracy without losing distance you'll improve as well. Or basically if you improve any part of your game and no part gets worse you'll improve.

I'm pretty sure every golfer would like to hit it because they know it'll lower their scores as long as they don't start hitting it everywhere.

ShivasIrons · 22-01-2021 5:15pm

MarcusP12 wrote: »

now you're just being condescending.....you've no idea what experience or knowledge me (i could surprise you for example on my own pedigree) or anyone else on here has as a golfer so maybe ease up on that? I for one am just trying to have a healthy debate about a topic that fascinates me so if i challenge an opinion doesnt mean i'm dismissing it for example....

I made the point earlier that its actually hard enough for gain an extra 5 of so mph.....its not as easy as it sounds if you already feel you're swinging close to you limit of control....

The one thing that keeps going around in my head with the simplistic view some people make about distance for amature handicappers who are not elite is "jees, why didn't i think of swing a bit harder all these years, sounds like i'd automatically score better....(don't need to worry about the accuracy so happy days!).....golf is so simple!"

Note as well i haven't dismissed any argument which are reasoned and go beyond distance = better score as i believe either has merit but its not black and white.....

I'm afraid it is black and white, if you add distance 10+ yards, without doing anything else you will lower your scores. There is lots of research to back this up.

There are many ways to add distance not just by swinging faster, that is just the topic of the thread.

As for not knowing what experience, knowledge or pedigree you or anyone else has, that doesn't really matter. It doesn't matter who is saying something, it matters what is said.

MarcusP12 · 22-01-2021 5:16pm

blue note wrote: »

So if you gain distance and sacrafice nothing you'll be better? That's not very surprising. I suspect if you gain accuracy without losing distance you'll improve as well. Or basically if you improve any part of your game and no part gets worse you'll improve.

I'm pretty sure every golfer would like to hit it because they know it'll lower their scores as long as they don't start hitting it everywhere.

Makes sense that.....

MarcusP12 · 22-01-2021 5:20pm

ShivasIrons wrote: »

I'm afraid it is black and white, if you add distance 10+ yards, without doing anything else you will lower your scores. There is lots of research to back this up.

There are many ways to add distance not just by swinging faster, that is just the topic of the thread.

As for not knowing what experience, knowledge or pedigree you or anyone else has, that doesn't really matter. It doesn't matter who is saying something, it matters what is said.

Well i disagree that it is black and white but that's just my opinion....you clearly have your opinion and that fine too.....

ShivasIrons · 22-01-2021 5:20pm

blue note wrote: »

So if you gain distance and sacrafice nothing you'll be better? That's not very surprising. I suspect if you gain accuracy without losing distance you'll improve as well. Or basically if you improve any part of your game and no part gets worse you'll improve.

I'm pretty sure every golfer would like to hit it because they know it'll lower their scores as long as they don't start hitting it everywhere.

The way to look at this is, a golfer has a dispersion error in their swing, call it 15% for one golfer, so if they hit it 200 yards they will have a dispersion of 30 yards in their shots, add 10 yards in distance now the dispersion becomes 31.5 yards, they have the same dispersion, they are hitting it further and are a little less accurate but they will shoot lower scores

ShivasIrons · 22-01-2021 5:22pm

MarcusP12 wrote: »

Well i disagree that it is black and white but that's just my opinion....you clearly have your opinion and that fine too.....

My opinion is based on research, data, experience and observation.

redzerdrog · 22-01-2021 5:22pm

MarcusP12 wrote: »

Well i disagree that it is black and white but that's just my opinion....you clearly have your opinion and that fine too.....

But his opinion is backed up by evidence and research so it's not just his opinion it is a proven fact yet you still wana disagree

MarcusP12 · 22-01-2021 5:37pm

ShivasIrons wrote: »

My opinion is based on research, data, experience and observation.

I thought experience didn't matter?

Depends on whether the stats, research etc are applicable to the specific discussion in question and whether they apply sole to the golfing group we're talking about....

Just to be clear, i'm not disagreeing or agreeing that distance doesn't lead to improved scores. I see merit in both arguments. I'm disagreeing that it is black and white...in my opinion, there's also other factors at play for the average golfer....but you're obviously far better placed to have a definite view on this and aren't open to considering an alternative approach so we'll leave it at that....i see a big career in coaching for you by the sounds of it....."just swing it as fast as you can!" ;)g'luck

MarcusP12 · 22-01-2021 5:38pm

redzerdrog wrote: »

But his opinion is backed up by evidence and research so it's not just his opinion it is a proven fact yet you still wana disagree

I think he's big enough to stick up for himself....i disagree with the B&W aspect of his argument not necessarily that distance doesn't lead to improvement.....

Miley Byrne · 22-01-2021 5:51pm

Not that important in terms of this discussion but it was beginning to hurt my eyes.....it's "amateur"

MarcusP12 · 22-01-2021 6:03pm

Miley Byrne wrote: »

Not that important in terms of this discussion but it was beginning to hurt my eyes.....it's "amateur"

Em, sorry...that’s probably me...

moycullen14 · 22-01-2021 6:09pm

If you don't think distance matters that much, go out and play a scramble with someone who hits the ball as accurately as you and is 30 yds longer. See the difference it makes.

As someone who is short (and getting shorter as I get older), I can tell you my scores are disimproving, even if my short game is holding up.

Like pace on a rugby pitch, there's no substitute for distance in golf. Sad, but true

MarcusP12 · 22-01-2021 6:17pm

moycullen14 wrote: »

If you don't think distance matters that much, go out and play a scramble with someone who hits the ball as accurately as you and is 30 yds longer. See the difference it makes.

As someone who is short (and getting shorter as I get older), I can tell you my scores are disimproving, even if my short game is holding up.

Like pace on a rugby pitch, there's no substitute for distance in golf. Sad, but true

I don't think anyone is saying that distance doesn't matter....

I get what you're saying also because i was that soldier once in foresomes...long story short my regular partner was very similar player to me in terms of style and distance but he got injured and ended up with a guy who was shorter than me which drove me mad at the time but equally, he was hacking out of rough more than he was used to i'm sure which i'm sure he wasnt keen on either so its swings and roundabouts! can be argued both ways....

blue note · 22-01-2021 6:19pm

moycullen14 wrote: »

If you don't think distance matters that much, go out and play a scramble with someone who hits the ball as accurately as you and is 30 yds longer. See the difference it makes.

As someone who is short (and getting shorter as I get older), I can tell you my scores are disimproving, even if my short game is holding up.

Like pace on a rugby pitch, there's no substitute for distance in golf. Sad, but true

Is anyone saying that distance doesn't matter that much? I'm pretty sure everyone agrees more distance is great if you don't sacrifice anything for it. If you do make sacrifices for it then you're robbing Peter to pay paul. Now if you're robbing more from Peter than you're paying Paul then you're still up or vice versa. But there's no question that length is an advantage.

ShivasIrons · 22-01-2021 8:06pm

MarcusP12 wrote: »

I thought experience didn't matter?

Depends on whether the stats, research etc are applicable to the specific discussion in question and whether they apply sole to the golfing group we're talking about....

Just to be clear, i'm not disagreeing or agreeing that distance doesn't lead to improved scores. I see merit in both arguments. I'm disagreeing that it is black and white...in my opinion, there's also other factors at play for the average golfer....but you're obviously far better placed to have a definite view on this and aren't open to considering an alternative approach so we'll leave it at that....i see a big career in coaching for you by the sounds of it....."just swing it as fast as you can!" ;)g'luck

The piece you're missing is that increasing someone's distance by 10 or 20 yards won't make them into a much more inaccurate golfer then they already were. This golfer is not going to go from losing one ball a round to 3 balls a round.

Vice Versa, the golfer who is long and very inaccurate will not gain a lot of accuracy by giving up distance.

It's the skill level that determines accuracy.

There's also a strong possibility that I am a very good coach, with many many tools to improve golfers. And also have evidence to back up everything I do.

MarcusP12 · 22-01-2021 9:09pm

ShivasIrons wrote: »

The piece you're missing is that increasing someone's distance by 10 or 20 yards won't make them into a much more inaccurate golfer then they already were. This golfer is not going to go from losing one ball a round to 3 balls a round.

Vice Versa, the golfer who is long and very inaccurate will not gain a lot of accuracy by giving up distance.

It's the skill level that determines accuracy.

There's also a strong possibility that I am a very good coach, with many many tools to improve golfers. And also have evidence to back up everything I do.

You could very well be right....who knows....

There’s also a strong possibility that you’re not what you claim to be and find it hard to disagree with someone gracefully.......but that aside, I take on board what your suggesting and might even try it out.....all I know if that when I was really struggling with the driver, I dialled it back to a hammered 3 iron and kept it in play and was able to put together a decent round at a time I was really falling out of love with the game..”if it’s in play, it’s ok”.....but sure what do I know....I’m only giving my own opinion...never claimed it to be fact...

tvc15 · 23-01-2021 10:22am

This whole thread is hilarious but I can't help but post when people are going in circles with semantic arguments that in general agree with each other! I think everyone can agree the following:

-speed is very good in golf
-speed correlates generally well with handicap
-speed doesn't guarantee good golf

I'll use my example, I am pretty bad at golf, getting back into it last year after after 10+ years not playing. I can swing my driver well over 100mph and with the right conditions have driven 300yds a few times. I have never finished a round with the same ball, I can count the number of times I finished 9 holes with the same ball pretty easily

Out of bounds is a pretty severe penalty in golf and i struggle to get my handicap down because of it.

To sum up, while I love hitting big drives and when they hit the fairway golf seems pretty easy, I have no doubt that losing 2 fewer balls per round (4 shots) would be worth losing some distance. And to be clear, it's never as simple as choosing one or the other

MarcusP12 · 23-01-2021 10:55am

tvc15 wrote: »

This whole thread is hilarious but I can't help but post when people are going in circles with semantic arguments that in general agree with each other! I think everyone can agree the following:

-speed is very good in golf
-speed correlates generally well with handicap
-speed doesn't guarantee good golf

I'll use my example, I am pretty bad at golf, getting back into it last year after after 10+ years not playing. I can swing my driver well over 100mph and with the right conditions have driven 300yds a few times. I have never finished a round with the same ball, I can count the number of times I finished 9 holes with the same ball pretty easily

Out of bounds is a pretty severe penalty in golf and i struggle to get my handicap down because of it.

To sum up, while I love hitting big drives and when they hit the fairway golf seems pretty easy, I have no doubt that losing 2 fewer balls per round (4 shots) would be worth losing some distance. And to be clear, it's never as simple as choosing one or the other

This is also me....I can’t remember the last time I finished an 18 hole round with the same ball....drives me mad...pun intended!

fungie · 23-01-2021 12:06pm

gypsy79 wrote: »

Sorry a statistician and golfer is calling BS on that graph. Not enough outliers. It would be a very interesting graph to properly compile

But I smell data fixing in that one

I would imagine each data point is an average itself; maybe the should of put in error bars.

gypsy79 · 23-01-2021 11:14pm

fungie wrote: »

I would imagine each data point is an average itself; maybe the should of put in error bars.

If that is the case then it is very disingenuos to use it to back there argument. Nobody is arguing been long will have you lower handicap

The point been making was using whats natural to get lower

GreeBo · 23-01-2021 11:22pm

ShivasIrons wrote: »

If you add 10 yards you will lower your scores, the closer you are to the hole the easier golf is. How much accuracy do you think you will lose by swinging 4-5mph faster? That's what 10 yards is.

What this thread shows is that many golfers have no idea what it takes to get better and are happy to throw a whole pile of mud against a wall hoping that some of it will stick.

You are making the wild assumption that hitting it 20 yards further means you are 20 yards closer to the hole, when what it actually means is you are 20 yards further from the tee.
The two are not synonymous.

It was already explained by another poster that hitting it further requires better accuracy unless your accuracy is already at 100%, this is due to geometry.

Club head speed

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