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Sweden avoiding lockdown

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  • Options
    #7502
    charlie14
    Registered Users Posts: 14,868 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    tobefrank321 wrote: »
    Are non essential shops closed?


    In a pandemic they are called non essential for a good reason.

    The Swedish poster on her recently you mentioned gave very good reasons why they should be closed.
    If Sweden had not let that legislation lapse that they are now trying to reintroduce, in all likelihood they would be closed.


  • Options
    #7503
    FintanMcluskey
    Registered Users Posts: 8,260 ✭✭✭FintanMcluskey


    tobefrank321 wrote: »
    Also happened in Ireland I'm afraid.
    It really doesn't look good to be continually accusing other countries of something we are also guilty of.

    It’s so frustrating to read posts accusing Sweden of criminal negligence, when the superior healthcare in that country landed them in trouble with Covid in the first place.

    If the healthcare in a country has achieved a number of 2 million citizens reaching the age of 65 its has been quite the achievement.

    Unfortunately that’s a lot of people vulnerable to Covid.

    Luckily Ireland has the EUs youngest population and only has about 650k citizens over the age of 65. A failure really.

    Certainly helpful though, when Covid primarily effects the elderly


  • Options
    #7504
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,865 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Honestly, who cares what Sweden is doing?

    They are certainly no icons of Covid suppression now. But hey their Nordic cousins like Norway and Finland are doing really well, and I doubt they care what the feck Sweden is doing either.

    Feck them. It is not our issue at all.


  • Options
    #7505
    charlie14
    Registered Users Posts: 14,868 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    FintanMcluskey wrote: »
    It’s so frustrating to read posts accusing Sweden of criminal negligence, when the superior healthcare in that country landed them in trouble with Covid in the first place.

    If the healthcare in a country has achieved a number of 2 million citizens reaching the age of 65 its has been quite the achievement.

    Unfortunately that’s a lot of people vulnerable to Covid.

    Luckily Ireland has the EUs youngest population and only has about 650k citizens over the age of 65. A failure really.

    Certainly helpful though, when Covid primarily effects the elderly


    The rest of the Nordic countries have the same percentage of those over 65 as Sweden as you well know and nowhere near the numbers of deaths.

    Proportionally with nursing homes we did equally as poorly as Sweden.
    For the rest of the population proportionally Sweden has 220% more deaths than Ireland. (# 7277).

    Btw, you do know don`t you that with this great healthcare system, Sweden`s with twice Ireland`s population has three times Ireland`s annual deaths.


  • Options
    #7506
    tobefrank321
    Registered Users Posts: 4,422 ✭✭✭tobefrank321


    charlie14 wrote: »
    Not long ago we were snowed under here being told that due to Sweden`s supposedly superior strategy, Sweden was going to be the exception.

    Don't think anyone said their strategy was vastly superior just that strict lockdowns wouldn't in the end make a huge difference when it came to deaths. A large number of lockdown countries are up sh*ts creak currently. Portugal did really well at the start. They had 2000 deaths in the first 7 months. They've had close to 3600 deaths in the last 10 weeks alone. Opening up for the summer months didn't help. Slovenia will on current trends likely end up with the worlds highest deaths per million. They passed 1000 deaths per million today. They too did well in the first wave but unfortunately terribly in the second wave.
    They would gladly take mid table at this stage.

    I also have a niggly feeling Ireland could start to do badly with deaths for the next few months. Really hope I'm wrong.


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  • Options
    #7507
    charlie14
    Registered Users Posts: 14,868 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    tobefrank321 wrote: »
    Don't think anyone said their strategy was vastly superior just that strict lockdowns wouldn't in the end make a huge difference when it came to deaths. A large number of lockdown countries are up sh*ts creak currently. Portugal did really well at the start. They had 2000 deaths in the first 7 months. They've had close to 3600 deaths in the last 10 weeks alone. Opening up for the summer months didn't help. Slovenia will on current trends likely end up with the worlds highest deaths per million. They passed 1000 deaths per million today. They too did well in the first wave but unfortunately terribly in the second wave.
    They would gladly take mid table at this stage.

    I also have a niggly feeling Ireland could start to do badly with deaths for the next few months. Really hope I'm wrong.


    Bulls**t Frank. Posters were queuing up here telling us, even as late as when our second wave started, we were fools not to have followed Sweden`s strategy as we would have so many immune it would have little effect.

    Deaths will more than likely rise in the new year here unfortunately.
    But as Lena Hallengren Sweden`s Minister for Health and Social Affairs said about having tools in the tool-box with the legislation Sweden is attempting to reintroduce but will not happen until March 2021, we at least have those tools, so I would fear more for Sweden on the number of deaths.


  • Options
    #7508
    Bit cynical
    Registered Users Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭Bit cynical


    I think Ireland's problem might be more due to economics which will indirectly affect health and be the cause of deaths. Although the level of restrictions varied over the outbreak, Ireland tended to be towards the top in overall severity compared to other EU countries at any given time. We are in a shared currency zone and we have seen in the past that you can be on the wrong end of decisions made collectively.


  • Options
    #7509
    greyday
    Registered Users Posts: 674 ✭✭✭greyday


    Bit cynical wrote: »
    I think Ireland's problem might be more due to economics which will indirectly affect health and be the cause of deaths. Although the level of restrictions varied over the outbreak, Ireland tended to be towards the top in overall severity compared to other EU countries at any given time. We are in a shared currency zone and we have seen in the past that you can be on the wrong end of decisions made collectively.

    The Countries that closed down too late in the second wave will suffer far more economically than Ireland, we are borrowing at negative interest rates with massive stimulus on its way from the EU, it is not going to be anywhere near as bad economically as people predict, every Country has suffered and a way will be found to maintain the standard of living we have become accustomed to.


  • Options
    #7510
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    tobefrank321 wrote: »
    Also happened in Ireland I'm afraid.
    It really doesn't look good to be continually accusing other countries of something we are also guilty of.
    The last time you 'accused' Ireland of doing something Sweden had done, you ran away from your initial claims as soon as you were challenged on them.


    You're so very good at running away when your continual nonsense is challenged. You slink away with your tail between your legs only to re-appear the next day, acting as if it never happened, and dismiss any talk about your behaviour with "You need to read all 500 of my posts to understand, I'm not going to prove any of my claims"


  • Options
    #7511
    tobefrank321
    Registered Users Posts: 4,422 ✭✭✭tobefrank321


    charlie14 wrote: »
    Bulls**t Frank. Posters were queuing up here telling us, even as late as when our second wave started, we were fools not to have followed Sweden`s strategy as we would have so many immune it would have little effect.

    Deaths will more than likely rise in the new year here unfortunately.
    But as Lena Hallengren Sweden`s Minister for Health and Social Affairs said about having tools in the tool-box with the legislation Sweden is attempting to reintroduce but will not happen until March 2021, we at least have those tools, so I would fear more for Sweden on the number of deaths.

    99.7% of elderly Swedes have survived the pandemic. 99.7% of elderly Irish have survived the pandemic.

    Your long running attempts to portray the Swedes as a nation of granny kilkers has fallen flat. If they are granny killers, then so are we. Don't be a hypocrite like a good lad.

    You're just rehashng the same old discredited nonsense, everyone agrees on that.

    You'd swear the Swedes killed off 50% of their elderly the way you continually exagerate. Its really tiresome.

    You'd wonder what Swedish readers of this thread think of you. I'd imagine a finger pointing grade A hypocrite is their opinion.


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  • Options
    #7512
    Bit cynical
    Registered Users Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭Bit cynical


    greyday wrote: »
    The Countries that closed down too late in the second wave will suffer far more economically than Ireland, we are borrowing at negative interest rates with massive stimulus on its way from the EU, it is not going to be anywhere near as bad economically as people predict, every Country has suffered and a way will be found to maintain the standard of living we have become accustomed to.
    True: money is very cheap at the moment and this will continue for some time. But it may not always be so and when the situation changes, those countries that took on lots of debt will be in a difficult situation.


    Yes there will be a stimulus package from the EU however different countries will have different requirements. Sweden we know has already opposed some EU spending and is likely to continue to do so. This is the problem. We have one central bank and its actions may be welcomed by some but opposed by others.


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    #7513
    tobefrank321
    Registered Users Posts: 4,422 ✭✭✭tobefrank321


    charlie14 wrote: »
    In a pandemic they are called non essential for a good reason.

    The Swedish poster on her recently you mentioned gave very good reasons why they should be closed.
    If Sweden had not let that legislation lapse that they are now trying to reintroduce, in all likelihood they would be closed.

    So non essential retail is still open. Thanks for clearing up that you have no clue what a lockdown is. You're embarrassing youself with your lack of the basics related to covid 19.


  • Options
    #7514
    tobefrank321
    Registered Users Posts: 4,422 ✭✭✭tobefrank321


    FintanMcluskey wrote: »
    It’s so frustrating to read posts accusing Sweden of criminal negligence, when the superior healthcare in that country landed them in trouble with Covid in the first place.

    If the healthcare in a country has achieved a number of 2 million citizens reaching the age of 65 its has been quite the achievement.

    Unfortunately that’s a lot of people vulnerable to Covid.

    Luckily Ireland has the EUs youngest population and only has about 650k citizens over the age of 65. A failure really.

    Certainly helpful though, when Covid primarily effects the elderly

    This thread is being driven in the main by Charlie, a guy who doesn't understand what a lockdown is, points fingers at Sweden while ignoring our own abysmal criminal record in relation to covid elderly deaths especially in care homes and who as you say gives no credit to the Swedes for their generally excellent care of the elderly, far better it seems than our own.

    Swden have one of the highest proportion of eldely in the world, we aren't even in the top 50. Which raises some serious questions.


  • Options
    #7515
    tobefrank321
    Registered Users Posts: 4,422 ✭✭✭tobefrank321


    charlie14 wrote: »
    The rest of the Nordic countries have the same percentage of those over 65 as Sweden as you well know and nowhere near the numbers of deaths.

    Proportionally with nursing homes we did equally as poorly as Sweden.
    For the rest of the population proportionally Sweden has 220% more deaths than Ireland. (# 7277).

    Btw, you do know don`t you that with this great healthcare system, Sweden`s with twice Ireland`s population has three times Ireland`s annual deaths.

    Of course they have 3 times our deaths, that's because they have 3 times our elderly as has been pointed out hundreds of times to you.

    You've undermined you're own argument. If Sweden has 3 times Ireland's deaths in a normal year what do do you think will happen in a pandemic primarily affecting the elderly? Surely even you can do the maths on this one?


  • Options
    #7516
    greyday
    Registered Users Posts: 674 ✭✭✭greyday


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The last time you 'accused' Ireland of doing something Sweden had done, you ran away from your initial claims as soon as you were challenged on them.


    You're so very good at running away when your continual nonsense is challenged. You slink away with your tail between your legs only to re-appear the next day, acting as if it never happened, and dismiss any talk about your behaviour with "You need to read all 500 of my posts to understand, I'm not going to prove any of my claims"

    At this stage I think he is just a wind up merchant, no one is so stupid to blatantly call people liars and then produce figures that are just plain wrong while still calling everyone else liars, he said Sweden was not considering asking their neighbours for help with ICU patients even when presented with the source, he told us Sweden had 1100 ICU beds when everyone that could read knew they had greatly reduced that number after Tegnell told them there would be no second wave in Sweden, the list goes on and on which has made his posts fairly entertaining at this stage, Dougal comes to mind when reading his latest brain farts.


  • Options
    #7517
    TonyMaloney
    Registered Users Posts: 2,147 ✭✭✭TonyMaloney


    New Cases - 20,931 since Friday

    New Deaths - 153


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    #7518
    greyday
    Registered Users Posts: 674 ✭✭✭greyday


    TonyMaloney wrote: »
    New Cases - 20,931 since Friday

    New Deaths - 153

    Looks a sustainable strategy to Frank, thank god we have a rational person like Frank on the thread :)


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    #7519
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    tobefrank321 wrote: »
    This thread is being driven in the main by Charlie, a guy who doesn't understand what a lockdown is, points fingers at Sweden while ignoring our own abysmal criminal record in relation to covid elderly deaths especially in care homes and who as you say gives no credit to the Swedes for their generally excellent care of the elderly, far better it seems than our own.
    Would this be our 'record' that you lied about, and when I corrected you, you chose to ignore me instead of providing any evidence for your claims?


    It would be, yes.


  • Options
    #7520
    TonyMaloney
    Registered Users Posts: 2,147 ✭✭✭TonyMaloney


    Cases still growing. No sign of a peak yet.
    Due to the lag that means growing hospitalisations, ICU cases and deaths for weeks and weeks to come.

    They’ve most likely have now passed the first wave in terms of deaths per day. Likely to be in the region of 100-120 actual deaths per day. We''ll know by Christmas.


  • Options
    #7521
    tobefrank321
    Registered Users Posts: 4,422 ✭✭✭tobefrank321


    TonyMaloney wrote: »
    New Cases - 20,931 since Friday

    New Deaths - 153

    An average of 43 notified deaths per day and an average of 5250 or so cases.

    Hungary, that great lockdown success story, are about to pass Sweden in deaths per million this week. They had 615 notified deaths for the same 4 days, or an average of 153 per day.

    In other words Hungary had exactly FOUR TIMES the notified deaths of Sweden over the weekend.


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    #7522
    TonyMaloney
    Registered Users Posts: 2,147 ✭✭✭TonyMaloney


    tobefrank321 wrote: »
    An average of 43 notified deaths per day and an average of 5250 or so cases.

    Hungary, that great lockdown success story, are about to pass Sweden in deaths per million this week. They had 615 notified deaths for the same 4 days, or an average of 153 per day.

    In other words Hungary had exactly FOUR TIMES the notified deaths of Sweden over the weekend.

    Well two things, Frank:

    1. Abso****inglutely nobody is suggesting we should follow Hungary's strategy

    2. For the very last time, the Swedish death figures are incomplete.

    I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not saying Sweden is or will be the worst performing nation on the planet. They almost certainly won't be.
    I'm saying that they're doing a very crap job, and that pointing at them as an example to follow is patent lunacy.


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    #7523
    tobefrank321
    Registered Users Posts: 4,422 ✭✭✭tobefrank321


    TonyMaloney wrote: »
    Well two things, Frank:

    1. Abso****inglutely nobody is suggesting we should follow Hungary's strategy

    2. For the very last time, the Swedish death figures are incomplete.

    I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not saying Sweden is or will be the worst performing nation on the planet. They almost certainly won't be.
    I'm saying that they're doing a very crap job, and that pointing at them as an example to follow is patent lunacy.

    All death figures for every country are incomplete, including Hungarys. For all we know, there's another 600 deaths that haven't been notified. Ours are also incomplete. We won't know the complete numbers for this weekend in Ireland for at least another two weeks.

    At this stage every country should decide what works best for them. Ireland can choose any path it wants. I'm just pointing out and have done repeatedly that Sweden is far from the worst, mid table and is nowhere near deserving the level of attention or finger pointing it gets.

    And finally a lot of nations are doing a very crap job, a large number far far worse than Sweden. What matters is not the strategy but how many deaths there will be in the end and as been said numerous times, Sweden will be mid table on that.


  • Options
    #7524
    TonyMaloney
    Registered Users Posts: 2,147 ✭✭✭TonyMaloney


    Sorry Frank, tried not to, but I'm muting you.

    You're just impossible to deal with. Nothing gets through.


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    #7525
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    biko wrote: »
    Sweden turns down offer of help from Norway.
    https://direkte.vg.no/nyhetsdognet/news/sverige-takker-nei-til-norsk-corona-hjelp.KlTDhbP3H
    Now Denmark and Finland have offered help.
    Sweden have yet to turn them down.
    https://www.expressen.se/kvallsposten/danmark-erbjuder-hjalp-till-sverige-under-pandemin/


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    #7526
    tobefrank321
    Registered Users Posts: 4,422 ✭✭✭tobefrank321


    TonyMaloney wrote: »
    Sorry Frank, tried not to, but I'm muting you.

    You're just impossible to deal with. Nothing gets through.

    While you appear to understand how Swedish notified stats are counted, you don't seem to understand how it works in other countries. Deaths notified today can come from any day in the last couple of weeks.

    Like I said we're unlikely to convince each other at this stage so best leave each other to it. Good Luck!


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    #7527
    tobefrank321
    Registered Users Posts: 4,422 ✭✭✭tobefrank321


    biko wrote: »
    Now Denmark and Finland have offered help.
    Sweden have yet to turn them down.
    https://www.expressen.se/kvallsposten/danmark-erbjuder-hjalp-till-sverige-under-pandemin/

    There's a standard agreement in the Nordic countries to offer each other ICU support. Sweden regularly takes in ICU patients from the other countries such as from forest fires.

    So far Sweden have said they've no plans to send anyone abroad.

    I'm seeing 253 in ICU in Sweden currently. Daily ICU admissions are still well below the spring. If they were able to manage in the spring, there's no reason why they can't now. Lets wait and see how it pans out.


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    #7528
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    "Norway, Finland and Denmark don't exist. However, did you know, that Hungary is actually a very similar country to Sweden in all respects and we should be comparing Sweden's response and results to theirs?

    Hi, I'm Frank."


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    #7529
    greyday
    Registered Users Posts: 674 ✭✭✭greyday


    Frank was so right, truly sustainable.
    135 deaths notified today with another 7.5K infections, they have everything under control as Frank says......oh look over there.....

    Deadliest November in Sweden since the Spanish flu.......SUSTAINABLE

    https://www.sbs.com.au/news/sweden-has-recorded-its-deadliest-november-since-the-spanish-flu-outbreak-in-1918


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    #7530
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 27,873 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    greyday wrote: »
    Frank was so right, truly sustainable.
    135 deaths notified today with another 7.5K infections, they have everything under control as Frank says......oh look over there.....

    Deadliest November in Sweden since the Spanish flu.......SUSTAINABLE

    https://www.sbs.com.au/news/sweden-has-recorded-its-deadliest-november-since-the-spanish-flu-outbreak-in-1918

    Inconceivable. The first wave was supposed to have killed off the vulnerable and there could be no excess mortality in a second wave, therefore it was pointless trying to protect anyone further.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #7531
    tobefrank321
    Registered Users Posts: 4,422 ✭✭✭tobefrank321


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    Inconceivable. The first wave was supposed to have killed off the vulnerable and there could be no excess mortality in a second wave, therefore it was pointless trying to protect anyone further.

    The record November deaths is a nonsense stat for about 10 reasons and anyone with common sense would see that.

    So far, Europe has 400,000 excess deaths for 2020. By the time the year is over and all deaths are counted which could take well into 2021 before its finalised, Europe will likely have close to 500,000 excess deaths.

    Sweden will at most account for 5,000 of those excess deaths. Where the hell are the other 495,000 excess deaths? Lockdown countries by any chance? Countries like Switzerland, Hungary, Poland and Slovenia are likely also to have had record months, although Hungary, Poland and Slovenia were involved in world wars. How on earth are you supposed to compare Novembers for those countries?

    Most of Europe fought two world wars. It would be very difficult to find a like for like comparison in Europe - you could try for non war years in places like Germany, France, Poland etc, but of course their post war populations will be much smaller and hence less deaths.

    Swedens population has grown in the last 100 years and is likely at an all time high.

    And covid 19 is the deadlist "flu" in Europe since the Spanish flu, so no surprise there would be more deaths in almost every country.

    Sweden also had before covid 19 one of the lowest death rates in europe and one of the eldest population in europe - guess who covid 19 kills in disproportionate numbers?

    People have a habit of throwing stats out on this thread without any analysis of them - we all know the usual suspects who are guilty of this.


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