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Why is there ever a debate about who was the best Irish Sports person ever? *READ OP*

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,730 ✭✭✭sxt


    Wrong. That is a weak stance to support the claim that Keane was world class.
    I put up a few players that would be considered great midfielders.

    A search on the net for great midfielders gives these ten:
    Xavi; Zidane; Zico; Charlton; Cruyff; Rijkaard; Zizinho; Laudrup; Maradona; Goggs.

    And a list of the top 50 midfielders in the world.
    https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1572011-50-greatest-midfielders-in-the-history-of-world-football

    Another list gives:
    Arturo Vidal; David Silva; Yaya Toure; Bastien Schweinsteiger; Paul Pogba; Iniesta; Eden Hazard; Luka Modric; Cesc Fabregas; Arjen Robben

    The three lists have a common factor - no Roy Keane.

    A search on the net is not always the most reliable resource. I just searched "most beautiful women all time" and the top answer has scarlet johansson number 1,Beyonce, Kate moss, Marilyn Monroe all in the in the top ten

    How about the opinion of former England captain and midfielder legend , Stephen Gerrard

    https://www.skysports.com/amp/football/news/11095/11974156/steven-gerrard-and-jamie-carragher-pick-their-world-xi-but-with-a-twist&ved=2ahUKEwiG7Ifd1O3qAhV8XhUIHeo6AtoQFjACegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw2C75i8jPbGaz402ByIgcsP&ampcf=1


  • Registered Users Posts: 859 ✭✭✭Randy Archer


    py2006 wrote: »
    I think you are being a bit unfair. What she has achieved is phenomenal and may be you don't rate it because its women boxing and they aren't household names but she has fought tough opponents and won.

    She deserves a mention

    The issue isn’t that she deserves a mention, the issue was a whinge that she wasn’t considered as the best or one of the best , for the nonsensical argument about men being bad and mean

    No one talks like that about Sonia

    Nothing unfair about it, Taylor has no competition


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,488 ✭✭✭Working class heroes


    Another one from a minority sport that deserves a mention.

    https://www.the42.ie/world-champion-irish-mountain-runner-youve-never-heard-of-2197494-Jul2015/.

    John Lenihan dominating at his chosen field locally for two decades and also won a world title a year after collapsing in the same event.

    Racism is now hiding behind the cloak of Community activism.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,092 ✭✭✭The Tetrarch


    sxt wrote: »
    A search on the net is not always the most reliable resource.
    What about this search of the internet?

    The Ballon d'Or is an annual football award presented by French news magazine France Football, one of the oldest and generally regarded as the most prestigious individual award for football players.
    It shows the top three players each year from 1956 to present.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballon_d%27Or

    ... based on voting by football journalists, from 1956 to 2006.
    After 2007, coaches and captains of national teams were also given the right to vote.
    Originally, it was an award only for players from Europe and widely known as the European Footballer of the Year award.
    In 1995, the Ballon d'Or was expanded to include all players from any origin that have been active at European clubs.
    The award became a global prize in 2007 with all professional footballers from around the world being eligible.


    But that is only the opinion of football journalists, national coaches and captains. (fwiw Gerrard came 3rd in 2005.)
    Roy Keane played when the award was restricted to European players and he did not feature.
    If it assessed world players from 1956 onwards he would have less chance.

    Roy Keane was not in the 1,2,3 in any year.


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,328 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    I'm going to hazard a guess that you are perhaps an ABU and are thus coloured by that. Because world standards extends to club football at that level, and there were few better midfielders than Keane in his era, in terms of determination and leadership.
    I'm not an ABU or anything close. I think Roy Keane was a great player. Can you tell me what world awards he was given?
    Did he make a world eleven for a couple of seasons?
    Was he ever shortlisted for the Ballon D'Or or world player of the year?
    All his contemporaries acknlowedge that fact, and he made United the team they were.
    You'll see lots of players with great things said about them by their contemporaries.
    And the statement that he never played league football outside of England, Ireland and Scotland is churlish. He was the best player for the best team in the Premier League for an extended period. My god, he had no ambition!!! You look at it today, when an Irish player breaks into a Premier League team its considered newsworthy.
    He was considered one of the two best midfielders along with Viera for a few years. He was never considered as out in his own as the best in the league.
    Alan Shearer and Denis Bergkamp were considered the best players in the league by many for a few years in the 90's, then it was Viera and Keane for a spell. He only received one PFA player of the year award as did Paul McGrath.
    He only made the PFA team of the year twice.
    On the world stage he doesn't rate that highly. I remember watching him getting bossed by Steffen Effenberg and Redondo in games that stand out in my memory.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,914 ✭✭✭✭castletownman


    Well no other Irish soccer player featured in the Ballon D'or reckoning either, and while Paul McGrath holds god-like status both here and in Villa, I'd say he isn't as universally known as Keane either.

    The fact is that no Irish player won an individual world award in soccer (unless you include Northern Irish international George Best in 1968), so you'd rank their greatness on the career they had. Seven Premier League titles, four as captain (no-one has captained their side to more)- only Neville, Scholes and Giggs have won more.

    And Match of the Day ran a top 10 series during the lockdown, where he came out top as best ever captain of the Premier League era, and best foreign import.

    This is a thread about the best Irish sports person ever, not the most universally acknowledged and successful Irish sports star on the world stage. Keane is definitely in the top bracket regardless. I wouldn't say Sonia O'Sullivan is as known world-wide in athletics either going by the parameters some people are using.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,092 ✭✭✭The Tetrarch


    eagle eye wrote: »
    Was he ever shortlisted for the Ballon D'Or or world player of the year?
    He was 6th in the Ballon d'Or voting in 1999 (36 votes), 27th in 2000 (1 vote).
    He didn't feature in any other years.


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,328 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    The fact is that no Irish player won an individual world award in soccer (unless you include Northern Irish international George Best in 1968), so you'd rank their greatness on the career they had. Seven Premier League titles, four as captain (no-one has captained their side to more)- only Neville, Scholes and Giggs have won more.
    Yes but Katie Taylor has been Olympic and World Champ as an amateur and been given an award as the best amateur boxer. She then went pro, is unbeaten and unified the titles at one weight and recently won a title at another and has been given the world's best female professional boxer of the year by both American and British sports writers so I think she's miles ahead of any soccer player.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,914 ✭✭✭✭castletownman


    eagle eye wrote: »
    Yes but Katie Taylor has been Olympic and World Champ as an amateur and been given an award as the best amateur boxer. She then went pro, is unbeaten and unified the titles at one weight and recently won a title at another and has been given the world's best female professional boxer of the year by both American and British sports writers so I think she's miles ahead of any soccer player.

    And I haven't once questioned her status as an all-time great.

    In fact, in my list of Ireland's greatest sports person, Katie and Harrington are neck-to-neck and I can't split them. Roy Keane is third.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,587 ✭✭✭Feisar


    Matt Connor

    First they came for the socialists...



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  • Registered Users Posts: 631 ✭✭✭Fr D Maugire


    If we are talking about sports stars standings within their own sports, then Sean Kelly would be up there. Kelly is considered a legend in World Cycling and I am sure many cycling fans would still rank him in the top 20/30 of all time. I dont think you can say that about Keane in football or Sonia in athletics.

    Katie Taylor is a good shout, but her sport(gender wise) is still in its infancy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,094 ✭✭✭.anon.


    Belfast is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. It’s British. His family were ORANGEMEN, it way less bigoted to Irish people

    Yeah, 'British' in the same way as the Begorrah Bejaysus Craic Den in Boston is 'Irish'.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,730 ✭✭✭sxt


    If we are talking about sports stars standings within their own sports, then Sean Kelly would be up there. Kelly is considered a legend in World Cycling and I am sure many cycling fans would still rank him in the top 20/30 of all time. I dont think you can say that about Keane in football or Sonia in athletics.

    Katie Taylor is a good shout, but her sport(gender wise) is still in its infancy.

    You can say that about Keane. Roy Keane played for Man United, Stephen Gerrard played for Liverpool and England


    Premier League

    'He was someone I was a big fan of' - Steven Gerrard names Roy Keane in his world XI
    Liverpool's Steven Gerrard during one of his many tussles with Manchester United midfielder Roy Keane
    1
    Liverpool's Steven Gerrard during one of his many tussles with Manchester United midfielder Roy Keane

    Kevin Palmer
    April 16 2020 11:37 AM
    Steven Gerrard has revealed he was a huge fan of Manchester United legend Roy Keane, admitting he modelled his own dynamic style of play after studying the Irishman.

    The Liverpool legend picked a world eleven from players he had competed against, with the stipulation that he could not use the same club or country more than once.

    His decision to select Keane ensured Cristiano Ronaldo was not in his line-up and he explained why the former Republic of Ireland skipper had such a bid influence on him.

    "He was a cert to go in there," Gerrard said of Keane on the Sky Sports Football Show. "He was someone I was a big fan of as I was growing up and I really studied his game.

    "Then I had a lot of battles against him and he was a top player. I don't think you appreciated how good you were until you were up against him. He was fit and strong, a box-to-box midfielder and he had to go in."
    [/QUOTE]


  • Registered Users Posts: 631 ✭✭✭Fr D Maugire


    sxt wrote: »
    You can say that about Keane. Roy Keane played for Man United, Stephen Gerrard played for Liverpool and England


    Premier League

    'He was someone I was a big fan of' - Steven Gerrard names Roy Keane in his world XI
    Liverpool's Steven Gerrard during one of his many tussles with Manchester United midfielder Roy Keane
    1
    Liverpool's Steven Gerrard during one of his many tussles with Manchester United midfielder Roy Keane

    Kevin Palmer
    April 16 2020 11:37 AM
    Steven Gerrard has revealed he was a huge fan of Manchester United legend Roy Keane, admitting he modelled his own dynamic style of play after studying the Irishman.

    The Liverpool legend picked a world eleven from players he had competed against, with the stipulation that he could not use the same club or country more than once.

    His decision to select Keane ensured Cristiano Ronaldo was not in his line-up and he explained why the former Republic of Ireland skipper had such a bid influence on him.

    "He was a cert to go in there," Gerrard said of Keane on the Sky Sports Football Show. "He was someone I was a big fan of as I was growing up and I really studied his game.

    "Then I had a lot of battles against him and he was a top player. I don't think you appreciated how good you were until you were up against him. He was fit and strong, a box-to-box midfielder and he had to go in."
    [/quote]

    Outside of Ireland/UK. I dont think many people would put Keane as one of the greatest 25 footballers of all time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,730 ✭✭✭sxt



    Outside of Ireland/UK. I dont think many people would put Keane as one of the greatest 25 footballers of all time.[/QUOTE]
    Depends on if they played against him or not I think he was the best player in midfield that ever lived


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭Frankx


    Joey Dunlop

    Had speed skill and bravery


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,239 ✭✭✭Jimbob1977


    Charles J. Haughey

    Tour De France 1987

    World Cup quarter-final 1990


  • Registered Users Posts: 631 ✭✭✭Fr D Maugire


    sxt wrote: »
    Outside of Ireland/UK. I dont think many people would put Keane as one of the greatest 25 footballers of all time.
    Depends on if they played against him or not I think he was the best player in midfield that ever lived[/quote]


    And that is a typical attitude of people who primarily watch the premier league. In 2013, World Soccer ran a poll for the greatest 11 of all time. 74 Journalists from various countries took part, for midfield Keane got 1 vote.....the same amount as Liam Brady, mind still one more than the likes of Gerard, Lampard etc. 22 other MIdfield players got more votes than Keane including Xavi and Iniesta. As pointed out by others, Keane was never in the running for the Ballon d'r either so he clearly is not as highly rated outside of the premier league.

    In cycling, there was a season long competition run between 1958 and 1987 to decide the best cyclist each year. Eddy Merckx 7, Bernard Hinault 4, Jacques Anquetil 4 were the most successful and are probably considered the 3 greatest of all time, maybe Fausto Coppi as well but he was before that competition . Sean Kelly won it 3 times and was 2nd twice. Ranked No 1 in the world for 7 consecutive years.

    No comparison.

    No comparison.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,826 ✭✭✭Truthvader


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    That was a once off for Delaney, he didn't feature before or after

    That s actually the point. He was a Sportsman, Won Olympic Gold, came home got on with his life without making a career out of it.

    And he didn't sulk off home because the facilities weren't good enough for him, or jack himself up on steroids to win at all costs or assault anyone in a pub etc etc. To be fair great time for Sonia too but Olympic Gold is Olympic Gold


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,189 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    Maybe I missed it but haven't seen Barry McGuigan or Steve Collins mentioned.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 236 ✭✭Irishman80


    In cycling, there was a season long competition run between 1958 and 1987 to decide the best cyclist each year. Eddy Merckx 7, Bernard Hinault 4, Jacques Anquetil 4 were the most successful and are probably considered the 3 greatest of all time, maybe Fausto Coppi as well but he was before that competition . Sean Kelly won it 3 times and was 2nd twice. Ranked No 1 in the world for 7 consecutive years.

    No comparison.

    No comparison.

    This is a great call. One of the greatest cyclists of all time - no question.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,065 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Irishman80 wrote: »
    This is a great call. One of the greatest cyclists of all time - no question.

    But cycling has a major cloud over the whole sport. It is a tough sport.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,954 ✭✭✭✭chopperbyrne


    As much as I think Steve Collins and Conor McGregor are both giant pricks, their achievements in their sports put both of them in the argument for sure.

    Collins was WBO Middleweight champion, and moved up to take on Chris Eubank, beat him and won the Super Middleweight title when it was the best, most competitive division in the world.

    He then successfully defended against Eubank, and defended it another six times, including against Nigel Benn twice.

    McGregor, won titles in the top European Promotion in two weight divisions, signed with UFC, and tore through the Featherweight division, defeating previously undefeated for ten years Jose Aldo.

    Then moved up in weight, and won the Lightweight title.

    Sean Kelly is definitely in the top five and possibly number one. His achievements in cycling are ridiculous. The only black mark is he did have two positive tests for banned substances.

    Harrington's achievements in golf seem to always be underrated. Very few golfers win one major, let alone three.

    Keane is arguably the best footballer we've ever produced, and he's definitely up there in the argument.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 236 ✭✭Irishman80


    Water John wrote: »
    But cycling has a major cloud over the whole sport. It is a tough sport.

    We could say that about many sports. It doesn't negate the fact Kelly is one of the greatest cyclists to ever get on a bike.

    You'll nearly always see his name on lists of the top 10 cyclists of all time and often in top 5's too.

    An absolute beast of a man.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,611 ✭✭✭✭FixdePitchmark


    She didn't dominate her sport!

    She was highly competitive in her sport - but domination is an entirely different thing.

    Usain Bolt dominated his sport. 8 olympic gold medals, 11 world championship golds... holds the 100m world record (and has broken it 4 times), 200m world record... countless guinness world records etc. He's still only 33 and retired 3 or 4 years ago - many athletes are still competing at his age!

    That's domination!

    Sonia O'Sullivan was highly competitive and highly talented, but never quite fulfilled her huge potential at the highest level.

    But we are talking in an Irish context.

    Very very few Irish Sports People have done domination.

    Sonia was at an extraordinary level of competition on a global level and been beaten by eastern block athletes and Chinese - we all know what that means.

    She won medals at 16 major events at world and Euopean medals. The Irish go mad when we win anything - but Sonia suffered as she had bad Olympics by her standards - but was extraordinarily unlucky and cheated out of it too.

    Rory a fantastic player and a character, fantastic energy and competitive edge. But I tend to think Irish overestimated the standard he played at. The English league was nowhere near where it is now. Would Keane even get in the great Arsenal team of the time.

    Did he play with many World cup winners at his peak ? , did he win many European cups ?

    Sonia for me.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 381 ✭✭ToddDameron


    It's Roy Keane for the longevity of his domination at the top level. Katie Taylor is second because Roy Keane had to produce week in week out. To have to maintain that level of fitness, hunger and mentality for so long and often is an incredible feat.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,847 ✭✭✭py2006


    sxt wrote: »
    Outside of Ireland/UK. I dont think many people would put Keane as one of the greatest 25 footballers of all time.

    I remember the German national manager during the time saying he wished Keane was German. Also Italian clubs were very interested in him.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,065 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Brady went to Italy and excelled. does that make him a better player? I would not say that it does, but would say he was a more talented footballer.

    but my vote goes to Sonia.


  • Registered Users Posts: 859 ✭✭✭Randy Archer


    What about this search of the internet?

    The Ballon d'Or is an annual football award presented by French news magazine France Football, one of the oldest and generally regarded as the most prestigious individual award for football players.
    It shows the top three players each year from 1956 to present.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballon_d%27Or

    ... based on voting by football journalists, from 1956 to 2006.
    After 2007, coaches and captains of national teams were also given the right to vote.
    Originally, it was an award only for players from Europe and widely known as the European Footballer of the Year award.
    In 1995, the Ballon d'Or was expanded to include all players from any origin that have been active at European clubs.
    The award became a global prize in 2007 with all professional footballers from around the world being eligible.


    But that is only the opinion of football journalists, national coaches and captains. (fwiw Gerrard came 3rd in 2005.)
    Roy Keane played when the award was restricted to European players and he did not feature.
    If it assessed world players from 1956 onwards he would have less chance.

    Roy Keane was not in the 1,2,3 in any year.

    Figo is on record to say that he only realised how good Keane was in 2001 when Portugal met in Dublin. Keane was excellent that day

    Now bear in mind, both guys would have met in the underage tournaments and qualifiers and were around the same age. Both would have met in the CL over the years , and Keane definitely stood out in the UCL 1998/99 season (Zidane felt his boot )

    Keane had a reputation that wouldn’t have endeared on the media ,outside Manchester and maybe most parts of England who would respect what he offered. Players on the receiving end of his insults and kicks wouldn’t - then again, he did get PFA POY and football writers poy in 2001 , a season And a bit after 1998/99

    Inclined to agree with you, facts are facts , but Ballon Dor has made some questionable decisions eg regular presence of Beckham in the top 3


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  • Registered Users Posts: 859 ✭✭✭Randy Archer


    Well no other Irish soccer player featured in the Ballon D'or reckoning either, and while Paul McGrath holds god-like status both here and in Villa, I'd say he isn't as universally known as Keane either.

    The fact is that no Irish player won an individual world award in soccer (unless you include Northern Irish international George Best in 1968), so you'd rank their greatness on the career they had. Seven Premier League titles, four as captain (no-one has captained their side to more)- only Neville, Scholes and Giggs have won more.

    And Match of the Day ran a top 10 series during the lockdown, where he came out top as best ever captain of the Premier League era, and best foreign import.

    This is a thread about the best Irish sports person ever, not the most universally acknowledged and successful Irish sports star on the world stage. Keane is definitely in the top bracket regardless. I wouldn't say Sonia O'Sullivan is as known world-wide in athletics either going by the parameters some people are using.

    Those same pundits did a very same discussion poll a few years ago ,with the same conditions and neither Denis Irwin or Roy Keane were mentioned ! It’s on YouTube

    Funny how the minds change once Keano got into punditry . That says more about the judges than Keane

    Ian Wright (good lad) was cheering for him . Said nothing in the previous poll and discussion A few years ago neither did Linekar

    Best captain, but wasn’t named in the team .


    You wouldn’t say Sonia O’Sullivan “is as known world wide in athletics based on,..”

    Wow. Seriously, were you even old enough to remember her?

    She ran in THE MAJOR middle distance disciplines, with MULTIPLE European and World Titles, throw in some world majors in cross country in her youth ..... she was pretty big deal in the world of track and field from 1993-2000 . She broke a couple of world records in her distances , one of which she broke in 1994 in the 2000 me free and that record was only broken in 2017 !! Thanks for the laugh !

    She was the hot hot hot favourite by world media (Who cover her sport) to win gold , in 1996;

    She wasn’t a media whore like many of the Yanks .


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