Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Cork - Light Rail [route options idenfication and initial design underway]

1356717

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭pigtown


    The feasibility report found that there is enough demand for BRT between the docks and Ballincollig. The section between the docks and Mahon isn't near the required density to make it viable, and the zoning for the area wasn't enough to grow it to the required density either. Even with population growth out to 2030 (20 years from when the report was compiled) wouldn't be enough to justify the cost of Light Rail.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭man98


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    Every bus is equipped for Leap cards. There is no lack of Leap cards. A huge issue is that people prefer to use change/cash for unknown reasons. Perhaps they simply don't know what they are or are unaware that Leap fares are 30% cheaper than cash, I don't know.

    The fact you can pay a city bus fare in Cork with a €20 note is ridiculous. The amount of wasted time where a driver is counting out change makes the bus less efficient. Cork missed a huge opportunity recently when the NTA made city and suburbs one single bus zone but went with the ludicrous decision of introducing stage fares. So even with Leap there is driver interaction instead of having a reader that everyone could tap on.

    To clarify, that's what I meant in my post. on Dublin Bus journeys are so much faster as passengers can get on quicker. That said, there's many problems with Cork leap fares on buses. There needs to be a coherent outer suburban pricing structure.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,099 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    That Dublin Bus boarding, with its interminable delays caused by ticketing machines running on hardware older than many posters here, can be 'much faster' than anywhere else is shocking.

    The TGX150 they use came on the market in 2000, with much much older hardware inside. I can't find the spec document for them anymore as Parkeon have removed it and the only result for the model number is on their heritage page! They must still make them, or else they're just relying on old stock from having had more buses in the past for spares and new vehicles.

    It takes multiple seconds to do a single smart card read at the side validator and many more to mode-switch and complete a transaction of a different type to the previous one at the drivers terminal.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,834 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    Frostybrew wrote: »
    The rail transit study found that this is not the case. With the development of the Docklands LRT will be a necessary.

    The N25 from Midleton is currently the busiest radial route into Cork city and is approaching capacity for a four lane motorway. It serves the commuting towns of Cobh, Glounthaune, Carrigtohill, and Midleton, a combined population of approximately 30,000. The Little Island area, a large industrial estate on the outskirts of Cork just off the N25, supports 8000 workers.

    To put all of this in context. The docklands development will add a population of 30,000 and 40,000 jobs, the equivalent of five Little Island Industrial Estates, plus Cobh, Midleton, Carrigtohill, and Glounthaune into a relatively small geographically restricted area.

    The new development will need a radical, robust, and progressive transport solution.

    How exactly do you expect to do this with buses? It's simply not possible.

    I strongly assume a lot of the people working in these offices will live in the nearby apartments. Can walk or cycle to work. I.e. Sustainable living ...


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    man98 wrote: »
    The time buses spend stopped and giving out tickets is much more than trams. While leap cards can cut this, they cannot eliminate this. LRT can give the same 10 minute service, could go contra flow on one way systems, it's much easier to put preferential signalling in place.
    No reason off-board ticketing or contra-flow on dedicated lanes couldn't be done with BRT, it's the standard in many places.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 9,228 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    bk wrote: »
    Well if you would like to give us a more scientific analysis, please do! :mad:

    The 202 is one of the busiest routes in Cork, yet, I'm certain it wouldn't even break the top 30 routes in Dublin. Thus suggesting spending 1 billion replacing it seems to be pretty pre-mature!

    But again Cork still has a huge % of Car commuters coming into the city so the demand for bus transport is artificially suppressed by the excessive provision of road space for cars. Over the coming years road space for cars will be whipped out fairly rapidly and people will still need to get around. 2018 will prove this for Dublin. College Green will be closed, cars will be taken off the north quays, and no doubt arnotts car park will be sold on and redeveloped, you think Dublin Buses are packed now, wait until there is no other alternative. :eek:


  • Registered Users Posts: 347 ✭✭Frostybrew


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    I strongly assume a lot of the people working in these offices will live in the nearby apartments. Can walk or cycle to work. I.e. Sustainable living ...

    On paper yes. In reality? To date it's been offices for about 6000 workers, 244 apartments, and a football stadium. The apartments were kept off the market for about 8 years until rents increased to a level that could generate massive profits.

    I expect this situation to continue.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭draiochtanois


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,055 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    man98 wrote: »
    To clarify, that's what I meant in my post. on Dublin Bus journeys are so much faster as passengers can get on quicker. That said, there's many problems with Cork leap fares on buses. There needs to be a coherent outer suburban pricing structure.

    A single flat fare for the city and suburbs should have been implemented. Upgrade the readers on the buses and stick it by the door. Allow an interim changeover period of 6 months for people to move from cash to leap card. During the interim increase the cash fare to say €4 to encourage people to take up leap card. After that interim period no cash accepted on buses, Leap only like Oyster in London. This would massively improve dwell times and the bus experience, for a relatively modest investment.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,542 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    bk wrote: »
    Well if you would like to give us a more scientific analysis, please do! :mad:

    The 202 is one of the busiest routes in Cork, yet, I'm certain it wouldn't even break the top 30 routes in Dublin. Thus suggesting spending 1 billion replacing it seems to be pretty pre-mature!

    And I will point you to Cork City Councils own report which clearly doesn't find enough demand for LRT.



    I agree, it is very impressive. But it needs to get started. Their is little evidence of even a sniff of it getting started unfortunately. It is pretty pie in the sky stuff at the moment.

    The docklands is hardly pie in the sky! The biggest office block in Cork opened there last year, there is an office block twice the size under construction and another block twice the size again (along with apartments and a hotel) with a planning decision due next month. Cork City Council are releasing a separate plan for further development this summer (with possible BRT). There is also the 40 storey proposal.....


  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,350 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    L1011 wrote: »
    That Dublin Bus boarding, with its interminable delays caused by ticketing machines running on hardware older than many posters here, can be 'much faster' than anywhere else is shocking.

    And believe it or not, it is somehow even worse in Cork!

    They use the same old TX150 machines, but there seems to be some issue which causes it to take twice as long to issue a ticket then it does in Dublin! There seems to be some issue where the driver has to wait and click two different buttons:

    - Place card on reader
    - Wait for reader to not find a ticket
    - Driver prsses a button to clear something
    - We both wait
    - Driver can now press a second button to buy the ticket.

    VERY SLOW.

    And then there is the fact that there is no right hand validator. So everyone one has to interact with the driver, even if you have a monthly pass, etc.

    And the worst thing about this idiotic setup is that Cork basically has a flat fare! So everyone could just tag on at a right hand validator if it was there.

    A complete mess.
    snotboogie wrote: »
    The docklands is hardly pie in the sky! The biggest office block in Cork opened there last year, there is an office block twice the size under construction and another block twice the size again (along with apartments and a hotel) with a planning decision due next month. Cork City Council are releasing a separate plan for further development this summer (with possible BRT). There is also the 40 storey proposal.....

    I very much look forward to it. But so far most of the development has been incredibly slow and very much held up.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,542 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    bk wrote: »
    I very much look forward to it. But so far most of the development has been incredibly slow and very much held up.
    No they haven't; One Albert Quay and Navigation Square flew threw planning and started as soon as it was granted. Along with the Capitol, they have been the two most efficiently implemented major projects I've ever seen in Cork. Horgan's Quay seems to be going in the same direction.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,350 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    snotboogie wrote: »
    No they haven't; One Albert Quay and Navigation Square flew threw planning and started as soon as it was granted. Along with the Capitol, they have been the two most efficiently implemented major projects I've ever seen in Cork. Horgan's Quay seems to be going in the same direction.

    I suppose I don't consider Albert Quay and The Elysian to be the real Docklands development that people are talking about here. They are almost right next to the city center after all.

    More Horgans Quay and the South Docks area, that is what is needed to really develop Cork and give us BRT, etc.

    Great to hear that Horgans Quay is finally getting off the ground.

    And BTW yes all this development was badly held up by the recession, it was supposed to have been done by now. We are only starting to get back to it slowly now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,542 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    bk wrote: »
    snotboogie wrote: »
    No they haven't; One Albert Quay and Navigation Square flew threw planning and started as soon as it was granted. Along with the Capitol, they have been the two most efficiently implemented major projects I've ever seen in Cork. Horgan's Quay seems to be going in the same direction.

    I suppose I don't consider Albert Quay and The Elysian to be the real Docklands development that people are talking about here. They are almost right next to the city center after all.

    More Horgans Quay and the South Docks area, that is what is needed to really develop Cork and give us BRT, etc.

    Great to hear that Horgans Quay is finally getting off the ground.

    And BTW yes all this development was badly held up by the recession, it was supposed to have been done by now. We are only starting to get back to it slowly now.
    I wouldn't really count the Elyssian either, One Albert Quay is the docklands though. The pre recession proposals are done and will never be realized.  There has been more done post recession than pre recession, it seems like lessons were learned. I think that Horgan's Quay is the make or break development for the whole area (a lot more so than the 40 storey), if that goes to plan it will genuinely transform the docklands.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,834 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    there is this talk of a counterpoint to Dublin, they only city that could be, because it is the only town or "city" of any size, other than Dublin, would be Cork. I hope they are a hell of a lot more ambitious with their docklands in terms of density and architecture than dublin is / was. Then again, thats another government and planning agenda...


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,228 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    I really hope that Cork get's it's 40 storey, a shiney new docklands to go with it, a new Kent Station quarter, a luas line and 2 or 3 BRT routes
    and all the trimmings. I say that as a Dub, we need to urbanise this country and that's only possible when the Cities are livable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,834 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    cgcsb wrote: »
    I really hope that Cork get's it's 40 storey, a shiney new docklands to go with it, a new Kent Station quarter, a luas line and 2 or 3 BRT routes
    and all the trimmings. I say that as a Dub, we need to urbanise this country and that's only possible when the Cities are livable.

    I find the forty floor thing interesting, developers in dublin have mentioned the issues with height and the increased cost of going up, which makes sense to a point. How in gods name will 40 floors be viable in cork, if the lands prices and rents are a joke compared to dublin and dublin developers wont build them?




  • In terms of docklands development, Belfast have the right idea. A 30 year development plan with it all laid out for anyone to review and offer changes on upcoming parts of it


  • Registered Users Posts: 404 ✭✭EnzoScifo


    There is a tender out for a Docklands area-based transport assessment

    https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=124540


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,317 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    cgcsb wrote: »
    I really hope that Cork get's it's 40 storey, a shiney new docklands to go with it, a new Kent Station quarter, a luas line and 2 or 3 BRT routes
    and all the trimmings. I say that as a Dub, we need to urbanise this country and that's only possible when the Cities are livable.
    There is already a wolfpack of fruitcakes coming out with a petition against the 40 storey tower.

    Of course there will be no petition for those that support it because Cork media loves these ****ing NIMBYs

    I was up in Shanakiel today and there is a fine view of the city near the old Shanakiel Hospital. The only building proudly standing up tall is the Elysian, with a backdrop of derelict industrial units. This could be oh so different and so vibrant, but no. More houses in Glanmire and Carrigaline and more jobs in Mahon. Lets see how much of a carpark we can turn the N40 into.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 8,412 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    The plans are there for BRT or light rail, the docklands is happening.... And the elysian sets a height so it's not going to be low rise...
    40 odd stories is "ambitious" and as such it will have to jump through planning hoops but if bord pleanala agree with it it'll go ahead nimbys, be damned...
    A better current public transport plan is needed for Cork though, not to rely on future plans that could take years to come through.....

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,228 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    I find the forty floor thing interesting, developers in dublin have mentioned the issues with height and the increased cost of going up, which makes sense to a point. How in gods name will 40 floors be viable in cork, if the lands prices and rents are a joke compared to dublin and dublin developers wont build them?

    The Irish Georgian Society and David Norris are based in Dublin, the source of much of the 'cost'. But Is suspect the 40 storey proposal is something being floated so that the developer may build a 20 storey.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,228 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    I think the 40 storey would be great for Cork it'd become a Cork symbol like the Bridge in Waterford or the Spire in Dublin. A real icon in a great location at the maritime entrance to the City Centre where the Lee parts. But alas it's an uphill battle to get it built.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,350 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    cgcsb wrote: »
    The Irish Georgian Society and David Norris are based in Dublin, the source of much of the 'cost'. But Is suspect the 40 storey proposal is something being floated so that the developer may build a 20 storey.

    Sure, but maybe they will squeeze 30 floors out of it. Would be great for the whole country as it might embarrass Dublin into going high too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,228 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    bk wrote: »
    Sure, but maybe they will squeeze 30 floors out of it. Would be great for the whole country as it might embarrass Dublin into going high too.

    Between Capital Dock, The Exo, Boland's Quay, Tara St Tower (decision due shortly) and the high rises promised for poolbeg west SDZ, I think Dublin will advance to the point where mid rises are quite common, at least to the East of the City Centre, there'll be more of a battle to the west with the James' Gate Quarter and Grangegorman.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 777 ✭✭✭Skedaddle


    You'd think Dublin actually had a skyline in the first place the way people go on. It's actually a very unambitious looking city with a few Georgian set pieces and a lot of ugly buildings that seem to have no desire to do anything statement making.

    Also given Cork's setting, a 40 story tower won't look put of place at all. It's a city with huge hills and many structures are already taller than that due to the landscape.

    Also there's a bloody hideous looking semi derelict ESB power station almost in the city centre just down at the top of the marina with a huge tower (stack) and big ugly pylons strung down to it across one of the best views in the city. That power line dates back to the 1950s but it is a hideous eyesore and cuts right across Mayfield and Montenotte actually over the top of an otherwise really pretty urban landscape as it comes down into the port! It's literally a monstrosity.

    A tall residential tower would look great in comparison. Can we perhaps focus on getting rid of and rehabilitating the post industrial mess along the Marina as a key environmental issue and stop trying to hamper what could be very nice looking developments near by!

    A modern tower in Cork isn't a threat to the city's landscape - the dereliction along the Marina absolute is. I walked Centre Park Road recently and it would nearly cause you to become depressed. it's the definition of an industrial wasteland. It's even worse since storm Ophelia demolished large numbers of trees, which are incidentally still not fully cleared up. The stumps are lying there months and moths after the event and the state of the paving is just spectacularly bad.

    Cork's a nice city be please, please, clean that area up! It's an absolute disgrace.




  • Serious question, how would a light rail system work when you consider how many hills there are in Cork City


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,055 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Serious question, how would a light rail system work when you consider how many hills there are in Cork City

    The east west axis of the city where a proposed corridor would run is flat as it's the floor of the Lee Valley.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Serious question, how would a light rail system work when you consider how many hills there are in Cork City

    The general idea would be to use some of the many legacy rail or light rail alignments. The Muskerry and Passage light rail, The Electric Tramways light rail or the Macroom rail.
    Together, they covered Douglas, Tivoli, Western Road, Blackpool, St Lukes, Blackrock/Mahon, Ballincollig...

    The biggest challenges are political rather than technical: displacing cars for instance, and there isn't great appetite in the Blackrock area for the old alignment to be used for mass transport. The current greenway is very popular.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 822 ✭✭✭zetalambda


    Serious question, how would a light rail system work when you consider how many hills there are in Cork City

    Obviously, you'd need to install train elevators at the base of any hill. Alternatively, a lower cost solution would be to attach giant helium balloons which could be inflated and deflated on a whim allowing you to float up and down the hills.


Advertisement