"Man Up" campaign by SafeIreland

Piliger · 02-05-2014 4:42pm

Bafucin wrote: »

But why do you hate them so much? There is so much personal anger beyond the issue.

Yet it is you who are using the word hate and seem to be expressing the most personal anger.

And you are wrong about these campaigners by the way.

We can only judge by actions. And the action say he is right.

I think emotional feeling is blinding you.

I think you are blind to the truth.

I do not see it as pejorative.

And yet it is pejorative.

It is affirmative in confirming that masculinity in it's fullest does not include violence towards women. It is positive about masculinity.

It is completely, thoroughly and comprehensively a nasty web site and a nasty misandrous campaign.

Or that is the way I see it myself anyway as a man.

We unfortunately have a lot of self loathing men after the last 35 years of aggressive media feminism that has been brainwashing men by telling them from birth that they are guilty of anything and everything. Your views indicate to me that you have been neutered by this kind of nasty feminism.

Bafucin · 03-05-2014 2:23am

Hello Piliger.

Yet it is you who are using the word hate

In reference to the way you are feeling or seem to be feeling at least to me. It could be a misguided perception.

expressing the most personal anger.

I hold no animosity towards you. I just hold a differing opinion.

We can only judge by actions. And the action say he is right.

Who are you talking about?

It is completely, thoroughly and comprehensively a nasty web site

That's an opinion.

a nasty misandrous campaign.

It affirms that the ultimate man does not commit such crimes. When men are men they don't commit or support violence and in fact stand against it. It affirms a nobility about masculinity. It is not masculinity that makes people commit these crimes but lack of it. That would seem to praise masculinity to me.

We unfortunately have a lot of self loathing men after the last 35 years of aggressive media feminism that has been brainwashing men by telling them from birth that they are guilty of anything and everything.

As a man I am guilty of nothing by merely being a man. As a person however....:D

I don't see such a trend. And your envisaging of it is so vague and all encompassing.

Your views indicate to me that you have been neutered by this kind of nasty feminism.

Now you are doing what you accuse the campaign of, calling men who disagree with your opinion on the subject neutered. That is not a valid argument.

In fact your post is full of the same ad hominem you just used on me. Do you want to revert to personal insults or keep things civil?

Bafucin.

iptba · 06-06-2014 9:35pm

Another Safe Ireland initiative:
http://www.wheel.ie/notice/can-you-spare-30-minutes-during-your-lunch-break-june-10th-2014-help-highlight-daily-reality-

Can you spare 30 minutes during your lunch break on June 10th, 2014 to help highlight the daily reality of domestic violence in Ireland ?

Sounds good until:

On June 10th, SAFE Ireland, the national organisation for domestic violence services, will launch its annual One Day Census – a one day count of the number of women and children who looked for accommodation and/or support from a domestic violence service on just one day (November 5th, 2013).

On that one, ordinary day, that number was over 450 women and over 220 children.

SAFE Ireland wants to do something simple, but ambitious - to take a picture of that number of women in one place, in one frame.

Come along. Bring your friends, sisters, mothers, children and work colleagues to Meeting House Square, Temple Bar at 1:15 pm. The photographer won’t keep you more than 30 minutes. And you’ll be part of an iconic image that can start to transform Ireland’s response to violence against women and children.

Email info@safeireland to let us know if you and others can attend.

For more information contact:

SAFE Ireland, Tel: 0906-479078 or Edel Hackett, Tel: 087-2935207

Doesn't seem a very good effort for "the national organisation for domestic violence services" aiming to "highlight the daily reality of domestic violence in Ireland"

iptba · 08-06-2014 2:39am

This is a re-enactment of an actual event:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4Ko23cI6oQ

Pawwed Rig · 08-06-2014 11:54am

iptba wrote: »

This is a re-enactment of an actual event:

Is there a source for the figures at the start of this clip?

iptba · 08-06-2014 2:49pm

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Is there a source for the figures at the start of this clip?

I had a skim down the comments for figures but couldn't see any.

However, I have heard that more women commit physical abuse of children than men before.

If one goes to (first report that came up for my Google search "abuse children gender"):

Child Maltreatment 2012
Children’s Bureau (Administration on Children, Youth and Families, Administration for Children and Families) of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services
http://www.acf.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/cb/cm2012.pdf

There's
Table 3–13 Victims by Perpetrator Relationship, 2012

Perpetrator
Parent
Father 127,654 18.7%
Father and Other 6,399 0.9%
Mother 250,553 36.6%
Mother and Other 40,495 5.9%
Mother and Father 132,557 19.4%

Then Non-parents make up 12% (it'd be a long list to copy in)

Pawwed Rig · 08-06-2014 2:53pm

iptba wrote: »

I had a skim down the comments for figures but couldn't see any.

However, I have heard that more women commit physical abuse of children than men before.

Yeah I suppose it correlates to the higher presence of women in a childs life than men. I wonder if a sample of single (or stay at home) Dads v a similar sample of women would show any difference.

Banjoxed · 09-06-2014 10:06pm

I detest the phrase "self-loathing", and think that men who assault woman are lower than slime, but I am utterly perplexed as to why over 300,000 people on Facebook find this hilarious. Imagine the stink if men found the idea of spouse-murder a bit of a laugh.

diveout · 09-06-2014 10:16pm

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Yeah I suppose it correlates to the higher presence of women in a childs life than men. I wonder if a sample of single (or stay at home) Dads v a similar sample of women would show any difference.

Yes and it would explain the higher rates of abuse by step fathers [as they are living with the child usually] and also single mothers who would have the child the majority of the time, as in not just more stress but more opportunity.

Some interesting figures here

http://fathersforlife.org/fv/child_abuse_roles_of_sexes.htm

Rates of Child Abuse in the U.K.

Child sexual abuse takes place within 4% of families (National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children — NSPCC),
About 1% of children are abused by a parent (NSPCC),
About 3% of children are abused by other relatives, with brothers or stepbrothers by far the largest category (NSPCC),
About 13-14% of sexual abuse involves non-relatives - which is to say, people outside the family. (NSPCC),
Sexual abuse occurs mainly in families that have broken or reconstituted; marriage is actually the best protector for children. (NSPCC)
Children are 20 to 33 times safer when they live with their biological parents than when they live in any other type of household. (NSPCC)
Non-natural fathers were almost four times as likely as natural fathers to sexually abuse children in their care. (A 1989 study by the University of Iowa of 2,300 cases of sexual abuse)
Although mothers’ boyfriends contributed less than 2% of non-parental child care, they committed almost half of all the child abuse by non-parents. (Unidentified study)
The risk of children being killed by a stepparent was 50 to 100 times higher than at the hands of a biological parent. (American sociobiologists Martin Daly and Margo Wilson)
Preschool age children not living with both parents were 40 times more likely to be sexually abused than those who were. "The presence of a stepparent is the best epidemiological predictor of child abuse yet discovered." (American sociobiologists Martin Daly and Margo Wilson)
The natural two-parent family was in a significant minority in every category of child abuse. This was even more remarkable since the majority of children lived in such families. (in Britain in 1994 by Robert Whelan, of the Family Education Trust, drawing on research by the NSPCC and the Family Court Reporter, Whelan)
Children living with a lone mother were at more than three times the risk of abuse than children living with their two natural parents (Robert Whelan, 1994)
Children living with their natural mother and a father substitute were at more than eight times the risk. (Robert Whelan, 1994)
If both natural parents were cohabiting, the risk to the child was as much as 20 times greater than if the parents were married. (Robert Whelan, 1994)
Such details about the marital status of families are no longer available in official statistics. "It’s impossible now to find out about the relative risks of biological and non-biological parents because Whitehall no longer wants them to be collected. What’s needed is a proper research study which will give us the marital status of families involved in child abuse." (Robert Whelan, 1994)
Physical abuse is more common than sexual abuse in families, and it is mothers - not fathers - who are most likely to be violent to their children. The group defines such violence as being hit with a hard implement or a fist, kicked hard, shaken, thrown or knocked down, beaten up, choked, burnt or threatened with a knife or a gun. Some 11% of children studied had been the victims of such violence, with 49% of them saying that their attacker was their mother and 40% saying that the attacker was their father. (NSPCC)
American reports indicate that physical abuse is most likely to occur among lone mothers. In one such survey, unwed mothers reported a rate of "very severe violence" toward their children that was 71 times higher than the rate among mothers who lived with fathers. (Unidentified reports mentioned in the ZENIT article Traditional Families Protect Kids Best)
Mothers tend to spend more time than fathers with their children; and unwed mothers are under extra pressure because they have to rear children without assistance, and also because they are likely to be poor. (Richard Gelles, a leading American expert on family violence)

LostinBlanch · 13-06-2014 4:21pm

Thank God this campaign hasn't gone as far as this batsh*t crazy proposal from Sweden.

A government investigation into the cost to society of male violence against women. And a tax against men to settle the account. Those were two suggestions put forward by the Left Party's feminist council, led by colourful former party boss Gudrun Schyman.

So not only do they peddle the myth that it is exclusively men that are perpetrators of domestic violence but they also want to tax men at a higher rate?

Madness, absolute madness.

PucaMama · 13-06-2014 4:38pm

LostinBlanch wrote: »

Thank God this campaign hasn't gone as far as this batsh*t crazy proposal from Sweden.

So not only do they peddle the myth that it is exclusively men that are perpetrators of domestic violence but they also want to tax men at a higher rate?

Madness, absolute madness.

crazy talk :eek: cant tax all men because of some men. and anyway why only because of violence against women why not against all genders? maybe only criminals convicted and jailed because of violent crime taxed to repay it, but most of those wouldnt be working anyway. i cant think of any way you could tax people like this.

Maximus Alexander · 13-06-2014 4:57pm

I'm really bothered by campaigns like this that seem to imply that I am a loosely contained, dangerous animal that is liable to fly into a rabid rage at any moment and beat lumps out of those around me, especially if they're woman and children. Or that I am in some way responsible for the behaviour of other people that I have never met, by virtue of having a similar piece of flesh dangling from me. Or that I am a heartless creature who would make no attempt to prevent or put a stop to abuse if I found myself in a position to do so.

I have no doubt that's not what they're trying to say, but it's certainly how it comes across and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Men, as a group, seem to be demonized in a way that is not reasonable, nor acceptable were it to be applied to any other group.

The banner on their site alone is insulting: "DON'T CONTROL OR ABUSE WOMEN OR CHILDREN". Cheers folks, I needed to be told that. It should keep me in line for a while, at least until the red mist inevitably descends upon me again.

py2006 · 14-06-2014 8:23am

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

I'm really bothered by campaigns like this that seem to imply that I am a loosely contained, dangerous animal that is liable to fly into a rabid rage at any moment and beat lumps out of those around me, especially if they're woman and children. Or that I am in some way responsible for the behaviour of other people that I have never met, by virtue of having a similar piece of flesh dangling from me. Or that I am a heartless creature who would make no attempt to prevent or put a stop to abuse if I found myself in a position to do so.

I have no doubt that's not what they're trying to say, but it's certainly how it comes across and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Men, as a group, seem to be demonized in a way that is not reasonable, nor acceptable were it to be applied to any other group.

The banner on their site alone is insulting: "DON'T CONTROL OR ABUSE WOMEN OR CHILDREN". Cheers folks, I needed to be told that. It should keep me in line for a while, at least until the red mist inevitably descends upon me again.

Yet we get lambasted when we criticise feminism.

It is campaigns like this that sometimes makes me think that criticism is not enough.

LostinBlanch · 26-06-2014 2:56pm

Todays indo has a good article on domestic violence. In this study of 1104 young men and women gender neutral language was used. It's a nice riposte to the execrable, publicly funded "Man up" misandry as practiced by Safe Ireland.

Study leader Dr Elizabeth Bates, from the University of Cumbria, said: "Previous studies have sought to explain male violence towards women as arising from patriarchal values, which motivate men to seek to control women's behaviour, using violence if necessary.

"This study found that women demonstrated a desire to control their partners and were more likely to use physical aggression than men. This suggests that IPV may not be motivated by patriarchal values and needs to be studied within the context of other forms of aggression, which has potential implications for interventions."
- See more at: http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/women-more-likely-to-control-partners-with-physical-abuse-30385731.html#sthash.uHDoQ75W.dpuf

I wonder how long before she's attacked and her work is denigrated? :rolleyes:

iptba · 26-06-2014 11:26pm

An open secret, a closed door
http://www.menshumanrightsireland.org/index.php?n=49

(Apologies if this has been posted to this thread - I just read it)

This piece seems to be well-researched. It starts off quoting lots of studies (all/mainly Irish) that found a lot of domestic violence is mutual and then the percentages for one-sided violence which are similar across genders.

It quotes examples of some women's groups playing down the importance of domestic violence against men.

It then talks about why some groups will see it as important to play down male violence as it interferes with their vision of Ireland/the world as being a patriarchy.

It then has a history of various women's and feminist groups in Ireland.
That's just a quick summary which isn't likely complete.

ongarboy · 27-06-2014 11:31am

Piliger wrote: »

We unfortunately have a lot of self loathing men after the last 35 years of aggressive media feminism that has been brainwashing men by telling them from birth that they are guilty of anything and everything. Your views indicate to me that you have been neutered by this kind of nasty feminism.

Where are all these self loathing men and why are they so easily influenced by what a select minority of extremist feminists say?

As a man, I don't need feminists to tell me what men are capable of. There are enough men out there who do this for me through their words, actions and attitudes. I also know that such men are thankfully in a minority as are such women.

Most men I know and are aware of abhorr violence towards women and most women I know or are aware of know this about men too. Most men and women also acknowledge that women can equally be the perpetrators of domestic violence, cruelty, heinous crimes and countless other unsavioury actions.

The men and women I know and am aware of that have these views (and which I believe are the majority) are all open minded and lack resentment and bitterness. I do not see that in any of your posts (either here or in other threads) which tend to not only come across as anti-women but also anti-men as you infer that we have all being reduced to a men vs women, them against us society. I'm sorry that whatever past, unpleasant experiences you had has enforced such beliefs. I dont' think it does anyone any favours, least of all you.

iptba · 02-07-2014 9:08pm

(June 27)

Confessions of an intimate terrorist: It's the buzzword for bullying husbands - but now researchers say WOMEN are the worst offenders. Here, one scary wife admits all

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2671590/Confessions-intimate-terrorist-Its-buzzword-bullying-husbands-researchers-say-WOMEN-worst-offenders-Here-one-scary-wife-admits-all.html

Pawwed Rig · 02-07-2014 9:14pm

iptba wrote: »

(June 27)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2671590/Confessions-intimate-terrorist-Its-buzzword-bullying-husbands-researchers-say-WOMEN-worst-offenders-Here-one-scary-wife-admits-all.html

Strange article. For what she is saying she doesn't sound very apologetic about it. No word of counselling or trying to stop her abuse.

py2006 · 03-07-2014 10:03am

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Strange article. For what she is saying she doesn't sound very apologetic about it. No word of counselling or trying to stop her abuse.

They have also stopped people commenting on it too. Some were trying to suggest it was his fault.

jackofalltrades · 03-07-2014 10:40am

From the article:

You might wonder what drives me to behave in such a way or if there is some hidden reason for the inexcusable hurt I cause.

I have a theory, but it won’t be a popular one. The reality is that the roles in my relationship — like so many modern marriages — are not clearly defined. I earn money and I also match up the odd socks.

Seems like she's looking to blame anyone but herself for being a violent bully.

The article also has a picture of her with her kids, as if they're trying to portray her in the best possible light.

I could only imagine the uproar if the Dailymail did a piece called "Confessions of a wife beater".
With the abusive husband making up excuses for hitting his wife.

Sleepy · 03-07-2014 1:48pm

Poor chap really should have left her for the "drip"...

iptba · 28-07-2014 3:14pm

UK

Labour in the UK don't look like they will adopt a gender-neutral approach:

“A Labour government will introduce a Violence Against Women And Girls Bill to place women’s safety at the heart of our legislative programme”

Shadow Home Secretary Yvette Cooper will renew a pledge to ban the use of “slap-on-the-wrist” community resolutions in domestic and sexual violence cases.

Data from 15 police forces shows that there were 3,305 such uses last year, up from 1,337 in 2009.

Advice from the Association of Chief Police Officers suggests the punishment is suitable only for crimes such as minor criminal damage, low-value theft and anti-social behaviour.

“A Labour government will introduce a Violence Against Women And Girls Bill to place women’s safety at the heart of our legislative programme”

Ms Cooper is expected to say: “These figures are worrying. Domestic violence is an incredibly serious crime.

“Two women a week are killed by their partner or an ex.

“A Labour government will introduce a Violence Against Women And Girls Bill to place women’s safety at the heart of our legislative programme.”

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/391253/Yvette-Cooper-battle-Tories-domestic-violence-attackers

It will be interesting to see if they ban the use of “slap-on-the-wrist” sanctions, whether this will only apply to male offenders.

iptba · 28-07-2014 3:39pm

Men do die at the hands of their current or former partners:

On average about seven women and two men are killed by their current or former partner every month in England and Wales.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-22610534
(I was reading a discussion where a few were claiming only women were killed)

iptba · 28-07-2014 3:46pm

Saw this mentioned as an example of a woman killing her partner/ex-partner:

Woman jailed for murdering husband
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-186527/Woman-jailed-murdering-husband.html

iptba · 28-07-2014 4:00pm

iptba wrote: »

It will be interesting to see if they ban the use of “slap-on-the-wrist” sanctions, whether this will only apply to male offenders.

Actually it looks like that may well be the case - from another article:

Labour has promised to bring in a violence against women and girls bill that would end the use of community resolutions in cases of domestic violence. These orders for a perpetrator to agree a penalty with the victim, such as an apology or compensation, allow those who commit minor crimes to avoid a criminal record.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jul/28/coalition-domestic-violence-labour-yvette-cooper

iptba · 02-08-2014 7:45pm

Not a new study but I've only just come across it.

Below is the abstract. But here's a summary that people may find more interesting.

What they did was compare the results of two surveys sent out to clinicians registered with the American Psychological Association, testing what the respondents considered to be 'psychological abuse'. For the first survey, they mailshotted 1000 people to test the 'husband-to-wife' version, and 45% responded. Then 9-12 months later, they mailshotted 1000 people to test the 'wife-to-husband' version, and 26% responded. Incidentally, the demographics of the responders were identical (56% male, median age 52, 96-7% Caucasian, 78% married), and not found to be relevant.

What they found was that clinicians were a lot less likely to regard the same behaviour as abusive if it were wife-to-husband than if it were husband-to-wife. The most staggering differences in this study:

85% of clinicians regarded the husband 'treating the spouse as inferior' as psychologically abusive, but this shrunk to 54% when the genders were inverted.

66% of clinicians regarded the husband 'monitoring the spouse to always know where s/he was' as psychologically abusive, but this shrunk to 35% when the genders were inverted.

68% of clinicians regarded the husband 'forcing the spouse to discuss past sexual relationships' as psychologically abusive, but this shrunk to 33% when the genders were inverted.

54% of clinicians regarded the husband 'refusing to pay fair share to maintain family' as psychologically abusive, but this shrunk to 15% when the genders were inverted.

77% of clinicians regarded the husband 'choosing the spouse's friends' as psychologically abusive, but this shrunk to 42% when the genders were inverted.

There are 100 items in the list. There was only one area in which wives' behaviours were significantly (p<0.05) more likely to be judged as 'psychological abuse' than when the genders were inverted - concerning whether they used poor judgement relating to the children (12% vs 25%). By contrast, there were 59 areas in which the same behaviour committed by the man would be more likely to be judged as 'psychologically abusive'.

Psychologists' judgments of psychologically aggressive actions when perpetrated by a husband versus a wife.

Violence Vict. 2004 Aug;19(4):435-52.

Follingstad DR1, Dehart DD, Green EP.

Author information

Abstract

Research literature suggests that clinical judgments of men's versus women's behavior and symptoms typically rate the men as more pathological and dangerous.

To determine whether this view would extend to assessments of psychologically aggressive actions, two separate versions of a survey listing potentially psychologically abusive behaviors perpetrated by either a wife toward her husband or the identical actions perpetrated by a husband toward his wife were sent to a nationwide sampling of practicing psychologists.

Results indicated that psychologists, irrespective of demographics, rated the husband's behavior as more likely to be psychologically abusive and more severe in nature than the wife's use of the same actions.

Psychologists did not differentially rely on any of the three contextual factors (i.e., frequency/duration, intent of the perpetrator, and perception of the recipient) to influence their determination that a behavior was "psychological abuse" dependent upon whether the initiator of the psychological actions was the husband or the wife.

Future research could assess more directly the rationale for the psychologists' differing views of male versus female behavior.

In addition, more normative information is needed to inform mental health professionals as to the prevalence and severity of psychologically aggressive actions in the general population.

PMID: 15726937 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

ancapailldorcha · 02-08-2014 7:49pm

iptba wrote: »

UK

Labour in the UK don't look like they will adopt a gender-neutral approach:

If ever I needed another reason to avoid voting Labour....

iptba · 02-08-2014 8:00pm

Another study on different attitudes

Sorenson, S., & Taylor, C. (2005) 'Female aggression toward male intimate partners: An examination of social norms in a community-based sample'. in Psychology of Women Quarterly.

Consistent with prior research, we found that men's violence against their female intimates is judged more harshly than women's violence against their male intimates. In this study, women's violence against a male intimate was judged to be less wrong than men's violence against a female intimate as well as less likely to be illegal, less likely that it ought to be illegal, and less in need of a variety of widely used interventions in intimate partner violence, including law enforcement intervention, arrest, restraining order, and firearm relinquishment.

http://www.sp2.upenn.edu/ortner/docs/sorenson_doc3.pdf

iptba · 12-08-2014 1:41am

This is on refuges for domestic violence victims in the UK and the claims that being forced to deal with male victims is causing cutbacks for female victims.

Ally Fogg*, not a radical MRA or even necessarily an MRA at all, cuts through the spin to the facts:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/hetpat/2014/08/05/throwing-domestic-violence-victims-to-the-wolves/

Summary of the facts:

As of this morning, there are a grand total of 58 refuge places around the country that can be used by men. Only 13 of those are specifically reserved for men, the others can be (and usually are) taken up by women. By contrast there are around 4,000 refuge beds for adult women, 7,000 that can be used by women and/or children.

The specific example given is Wolverhampton Haven which is being ‘forced to reserve some of its places for men, even though it has had no male referrals to the accommodation so far.’ Wolverhampton Haven has not had any referrals so far because it has not offered any services to men so far. If one looks at their website, it clearly says at the top and bottom of every page that they offer services to women and children.

Anyone have any idea of the numbers of refuge spaces for men and women in Ireland? Are there moves to force those providing services to provide services to men?

*

Ally Fogg is a UK-based freelance writer and journalist, whose day job includes a weekly column on Comment is Free at www.guardian.co.uk and miscellaneous scribbles elsewhere, mostly on issues of UK politics and social justice. This blog is dedicated to exploring gender issues from a male perspective, unshackled from any dogmatic ideology. Ally is often accused of being a feminist lapdog and an anti-feminist quisling; a misogynist and a misandrist; a mangina and a closet MRA, and concludes that the only thing found in pigeonholes is pigeon ****. He can be contacted most easily through www.allyfogg.co.uk or @allyfogg on Twitter.

constance tench · 14-08-2014 12:56am

iptba wrote: »

...

...Anyone have any idea of the numbers of refuge spaces for men and women in Ireland? Are there moves to force those providing services to provide services to men?

*

No specifics here but, apparently boys over the age of 12 are not welcome in Irish DV shelters.

"Man Up" campaign by SafeIreland

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