Free Staters? Term of Abuse?

zmccomish · 10-05-2013 6:35pm #1

It has been said that referring to someone from the Republic ,especially coming from a person from Nth. Ireland , is a term of abuse.Is it? Any if so why?

Victor · 10-05-2013 6:47pm

The Free State ended how long ago?

jonniebgood1 · 10-05-2013 10:39pm

zmccomish wrote: »

It has been said that referring to someone from the Republic ,especially coming from a person from Nth. Ireland , is a term of abuse.Is it? Any if so why?

It has been used by some of the more small minded of northern politicians as a term of derision for the Republic of Ireland. It would seem to be based upon some type of unnacceptance that Ireland is an independent country. Untill Ireland was declared as a Republic it was known as the Irish free state until 1937, the implied reference being that the free state was a dominion of the UK. I would not find it abusive, rather it is a reflection on the intellect and mindset of the person who uses this description.

Dr. Nooooo! · 11-05-2013 12:01am

A free stater is generally used to refer to someone who is partitionist minded, ie they dont think people from the north are Irish, they dont care about them and happily ignored what went on and concentrated on the 26 county state, traditionally used to refer to Fine Gaelers in particular. Ie they supported the free state and the abandonment of those in the six counties.

Cedrus · 11-05-2013 12:23am

Dr. Nooooo! wrote: »

A free stater is generally used to refer to someone who is partitionist minded, ie they dont think people from the north are Irish, they dont care about them and happily ignored what went on and concentrated on the 26 county state, traditionally used to refer to Fine Gaelers in particular. Ie they supported the free state and the abandonment of those in the six counties.

I've never heard of this interpretation, it doesn't even make sense. I would tend to agree more with jonniebgood1s synopsis.

TBH your summary is madder than the equally specious description of "Fine Gaelers" as Blueshirts.

Deedsie · 11-05-2013 12:33am

I always thought the term free stater was used by the Irish living in Northern Ireland after the 77 TD's in The Dáil voted to abandon the boundary commission and thus, abandon the Irish in Northern Ireland to life in a unionist dominated nightmare. Some of the descendants of these abandoned nationalist Irish people continue the tradition to this day!

Madam · 11-05-2013 11:53am

I suppose this song sort of emphasis what its all about - the winners can and do change history:rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiTrGDyGgOw

Coles · 11-05-2013 2:36pm

Cedrus wrote: »

I've never heard of this interpretation, it doesn't even make sense. I would tend to agree more with jonniebgood1s synopsis.

TBH your summary is madder than the equally specious description of "Fine Gaelers" as Blueshirts.

You're wrong on both counts.

A "Free Stater" was someone who supported the partition of Ireland.

A "Blueshirt" is a term for a supporter of FG. Their history haunts them.

jonniebgood1 · 11-05-2013 2:45pm

Coles wrote: »

You're wrong on both counts.

A "Free Stater" was someone who supported the partition of Ireland.

A "Blueshirt" is a term for a supporter of FG. Their history haunts them.

Blueshirt is not simply 'a term for' FG supporters. It is a derisory description from their flirtation with right wing politics.

Coles · 11-05-2013 2:47pm

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Blueshirt is not simply 'a term for' FG supporters. It is a derisory description from their flirtation with right wing politics.

It's used in a jocular way to describe ALL supporters of FG. Wasn't very funny back in the 1930's though...

Seanchai · 11-05-2013 2:51pm

Victor wrote: »

The Free State ended how long ago?

According to Alan Shatter on Morning Ireland last week, in an embarrassingly uncritical interview by Rachel English, the Free State was certainly in existence between 1939 and 1945.

Alan Shatter: never conceited; always intellectually vigorous and factually correct.

Seanchai · 11-05-2013 3:04pm

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Blueshirt is not simply 'a term for' FG supporters. It is a derisory description from their flirtation with right wing politics.

Are you sure this happened? I heard the Fine Gael minister Mr Shatter last week and you'd swear Fine Gaelers weren't fighting on the Nazi-supported side in the Spanish Civil War trying to overthrow the democratically-elected government of Spain. Like the Royal British Legion which raised volunteers to fight for Nazi Germany in 1938(!!), Fine Gael wants to engage in historical revisionism on the same issue (not to mention the entire party's support for neutrality during WW II, after James Dillon resigned in 1942)

PS: As far as I understand the use of the word 'Blueshirts' in Irish society today, it's a general term for people who support Fine Gael, often used by Fine Gaelers themselves.

6am7f9zxrsjvnb · 11-05-2013 3:34pm

Such an insult would be completely lost on 99% of the population under the age of thirty.Thankfully.

jonniebgood1 · 11-05-2013 3:36pm

From last link maybe they do use it themselves. It begs the question do they not actually know where the term comes from. For example if I were to follow a party I would prefer not to be named after something like this!

Victor · 11-05-2013 3:42pm

Of course, the Blue Shirts and Fine Gael never existed at the same time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blueshirts

Cedrus · 11-05-2013 7:15pm

Seanchai wrote: »

Like the Royal British Legion which raised volunteers to fight for Nazi Germany in 1938(!!),.

Are you sure???????????

Conmaicne Mara · 11-05-2013 7:23pm

Passive aggressive nonsense from those who went through bombings, shootings, british army security etc. As a citizen of the republic of Ireland, not my problem, most of them are only delighted to take from the british state and not be part of the Irish recession. Jog on is my response, your troubles aren't mine.

Snickers Man · 11-05-2013 8:15pm

When I was growing up in Norn Iron, the "Free State" referred to the geographical entity that a doctrinaire republican would still to this day call "the 26 counties".

Free Staters were all people haling from or residing in that territory.

There was also a slight negative connotation, implying that the "Free Staters" were all complicit in abandoning the minority in the North to Unionisit rule, but that would be levelled at all parties who recognised in and participated in the governance of the "26 Counties" including Fine Gael, Fianna Fail and Labour.

Seanchai · 11-05-2013 11:26pm

Cedrus wrote: »

Are you sure???????????

Absolutely certain.

Not to mention the embarrassing photos

Cedrus · 12-05-2013 12:46am

Seanchai wrote: »

Like the Royal British Legion which raised volunteers to fight for Nazi Germany in 1938(!!),

Cedrus wrote: »

Are you sure???????????

Seanchai wrote: »

Absolutely certain.

So in the winter of 1938,17,000 WW1 veterans applied for 1200 police jobs in Czechoslovakia (mass unemployment anyone?) a year before WW2, the 1200 were mobliised and disbanded in 8 days without leaving london.

A bit of a blind alley you led us up there.

The picture in the middle of the second row with Hitler and Fetherston-Godley the legion chairman is actually from the summer of 1935, nothing to do with the volunteer force.

Deedsie · 12-05-2013 10:52am

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Passive aggressive nonsense from those who went through bombings, shootings, british army security etc. As a citizen of the republic of Ireland, not my problem, most of them are only delighted to take from the british state and not be part of the Irish recession. Jog on is my response, your troubles aren't mine.

= Free Stater

Terrible calibre of person with no sympathy for fellow Irish people with no option but to take from the British state, I am sure a lot of them would prefer to be contributing to a independent All island Irish state. Irish people in this part of Ireland took from the British up to 1921. Irish people in this part of Ireland were only too happy to take a loan from the British government two years ago.

"Free staters" also have a habit of accusing anyone from the RoI who does sympathize with Northern Ireland nationalists as shinners.

And any nationalists/republicans as less Irish than they are for being born or descended from people born in the wrong county.

Conmaicne Mara · 12-05-2013 10:53pm

Deedsie wrote: »

= Free Stater

Terrible calibre of person with no sympathy for fellow Irish people with no option but to take from the British state, I am sure a lot of them would prefer to be contributing to a independent All island Irish state. Irish people in this part of Ireland took from the British up to 1921. Irish people in this part of Ireland were only too happy to take a loan from the British government two years ago.

"Free staters" also have a habit of accusing anyone from the RoI who does sympathize with Northern Ireland nationalists as shinners.

And any nationalists/republicans as less Irish than they are for being born or descended from people born in the wrong county.

Yes I'm sure they would, and that they can't is obviously good enough reason to revert to name calling against people getting on with their own lives. An extremely mature and productive strategy sure to win friends and influence people.

gobnaitolunacy · 13-05-2013 8:11am

Heard of Irish Army guys around Drogheda being derided as 'Free Staters' in the 70's alright.

Tordelback · 13-05-2013 4:36pm

Surely 'Free Stater' has its origins in derogatory post-Civil War description of the Pro-treaty forces, supporters and ultimately government? i.e. those willing to settle for a 26 county Free State 'Dominion', rather than a 32 County Republic?

Coles · 13-05-2013 7:49pm

Victor wrote: »

Of course, the Blue Shirts and Fine Gael never existed at the same time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blueshirts

That's because the Blueshirts were banned and they then became Fine Gael. Eoin O'Duffy was the leader of the Blueshirts and then he founded Fine Gael and became the leader of that organisation. Everyone who joined FG at the time knew exactly who they were in bed with.

Gott · 13-05-2013 8:00pm

Dr. Nooooo! wrote: »

A free stater is generally used to refer to someone who is partitionist minded, ie they dont think people from the north are Irish, they dont care about them and happily ignored what went on and concentrated on the 26 county state, traditionally used to refer to Fine Gaelers in particular. Ie they supported the free state and the abandonment of those in the six counties.

I'd be more familiar with this version actually, some people from Armagh were down at the Fleadh last year and set up shop in one of the sanctioned camps. When they were politely asked to dial down the whole 'f*ck the Queen' business they were singing by someone from Cork (who had English visitors with him, was camping nearby) he was told 'f*ck off Free Stater'.

I suppose it was born from the bitterness the northern Catholics had over being abandoned after the War of Independence, but you'd think they'd come up with an insult a bit more ... modern I guess.

Deedsie · 14-05-2013 5:50pm

Gott wrote: »

I'd be more familiar with this version actually, some people from Armagh were down at the Fleadh last year and set up shop in one of the sanctioned camps. When they were politely asked to dial down the whole 'f*ck the Queen' business they were singing by someone from Cork (who had English visitors with him, was camping nearby) he was told 'f*ck off Free Stater'.

I suppose it was born from the bitterness the northern Catholics had over being abandoned after the War of Independence, but you'd think they'd come up with an insult a bit more ... modern I guess.

I'd agree with the cork lad in this situation but its sort of understandable the resentment some of the Irish/Northern Irish/British Catholics living in Northern Ireland have towards the south who abandoned them, the PUL community who abused them, the British government which ignored them until it was too late.

This loosely knit group will soon be the majority in Northern Ireland. 2017 on current trends I believe. Perhaps the Irish government should start considering an attempt to warm relations with them? Not sure how, but no on can deny they were mistreated by all sides

jonniebgood1 · 14-05-2013 10:08pm

Deedsie wrote: »

I'd agree with the cork lad in this situation but its sort of understandable the resentment some of the Irish/Northern Irish/British Catholics living in Northern Ireland have towards the south who abandoned them, the PUL community who abused them, the British government which ignored them until it was too late.

I don't see this as being 'understandable' in any way. Rather it shows their ignorance of the reality Irish history. Furthermore the example shown sounds more like an exert from something like Ibiza uncovered rather than a traditional Irish music festival.

Deedsie wrote: »

This loosely knit group will soon be the majority in Northern Ireland. 2017 on current trends I believe. Perhaps the Irish government should start considering an attempt to warm relations with them? Not sure how, but no on can deny they were mistreated by all sides

Are the Irish government not already on decent terms with NI nationalists? I believe so. The recent figures on the NI demographics were interesting in what they showed including the large percentage of both nationalists and unionists who feel an affinity for the state they currently live in, as opposed to nationalists feeling Irish or unionists feeling British.

Deedsie · 15-05-2013 12:08am

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

I don't see this as being 'understandable' in any way. Rather it shows their ignorance of the reality Irish history. Furthermore the example shown sounds more like an exert from something like Ibiza uncovered rather than a traditional Irish music festival.

Are the Irish government not already on decent terms with NI nationalists? I believe so. The recent figures on the NI demographics were interesting in what they showed including the large percentage of both nationalists and unionists who feel an affinity for the state they currently live in, as opposed to nationalists feeling Irish or unionists feeling British.

Just out of curiosity, where did they show their ignorance of Irish history. They showed they were a group of fools, rude and ignorant. Probably drunk. Dont see where they got the history terribly wrong.

Was there not an almost universal PUL selection of a British nationality, in some cases alongside Northern Irish? By state do you mean Northern Ireland or the UK?

Its great things are settling down a bit up there, but there are serious obstacles still to be passed. Flags, anthems, parades, protests at parades, to educate together or educate separately on the same site, dissidents, loyalist paramilitaries...

Hopefully one day they will get there and our government will have played a central role in facilitating a long overdue peace between the two communities. And one day maybe a United Ireland will become a possibility. a few generations of peace could work wonders.

jonniebgood1 · 15-05-2013 9:59pm

Deedsie wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, where did they show their ignorance of Irish history. They showed they were a group of fools, rude and ignorant. Probably drunk. Dont see where they got the history terribly wrong.

Addressing someone as a 'free stater' because they did not join in a chorus as outlined above would seem that way to me. If that was correct I would say 99% of people would be classed as this.
You have described them as ignorant and given the 'free stater' comment there is a historical connotation so we are on same path.

Coles · 16-05-2013 12:14am

Deedsie wrote: »

And one day maybe a United Ireland will become a possibility. a few generations of peace could work wonders.

There won't be a United Ireland until we create a proper secular Republic that respects all traditions while bowing to none. People both sides of the border need to stop allowing themselves to be divided along stupid sectarian lines. And we need to start electing proper politicians, not the usual tiny little gombeens who have no vision for the place.

Free Staters? Term of Abuse?

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