Ionity charging network

patsryan · 08-08-2018 10:38am

Mad_Lad I believe there was supposed to be an ESB unit here but ecars ran out of the €20 million allocated to them from the CER and €6 million in EU grants in 2016 so no new units were installed until the goverment allocated €10 million towards new infrastructure this year.

The ESB did have a tender out recently for new chargers, which is begining to bear fruit in the form of existing units being replaced (e.g. Copley St, Cork.

recently got an efacec SCP)

Its unlikely we will see any new locations until the existing network is restored back to a working condition as a result of the tender.

Heck its unlikely we will see any new locations from ecars as the CRU recommend ecars to sell the network

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders/ViewNotice/202438
https://www.cru.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/CRU17283-Decision-paper-on-ESBN-Electric-Vehicle-Pilot-Associated-Assets.pdf

08-08-2018 11:42pm

It's all just a shambles. Complete and utter shambles. And the Government need a kick in the hole !

patsryan · 09-08-2018 11:40pm

Deleted User wrote: »

It's all just a shambles. Complete and utter shambles. And the Government need a kick in the hole !

Don’t get me started on that story!

As I’m sure you know it was a “pilot project” or game to the ESB funded by the electricity payers of Ireland through the CRU.

After 2 years the CRU said sell it, but for those two years people still expected the ESB to invest there own money in expanding the network they didn’t own without being guaranteed a return on their investment.

Expanding the network was sucide from a business prospect, but they should at least have maintained the existing network better.

On the Government side of things, they can’t directly build a charger network either I believe because otherwise they would beach EU laws about being anti-competitive / state aid.

They could go about it in a round about way however such as make grants available to any public / private body to build a charger network (like they have) and have companies / organisations like Transport Infrastructure Ireland or the ESB (who have) put a tender out for the money.

This prevents it from being anti-competitive / state aid because it’s open to even one then.

Casati · 15-08-2018 8:30am

Any idea what the cost to charge will be at these sites? I imagine each charging station will need to bring similar profit as a petrol/ diesel pump to make it viable long term for operators

ELM327 · 15-08-2018 8:41am

Casati wrote: »

Any idea what the cost to charge will be at these sites? I imagine each charging station will need to bring similar profit as a petrol/ diesel pump to make it viable long term for operators

petrol/diesel profit is generally only 1c-2c/litre.
However you'd need to pay for the cost of the electricity (say 18 c/kWh to allow for day rates and higher MIC costs).
You'd also have to pay for the land where the charger is on, the upgraded wiring etc
You'd also have to pay for each charger (50k min).
You'd also need a backend software and the ability to update it, and a customer service support.

All that has to be paid for before breakeven.

You can see why in the UK they are between 25-49p/kWh

Casati · 15-08-2018 8:52am

ELM327 wrote: »

petrol/diesel profit is generally only 1c-2c/litre.
However you'd need to pay for the cost of the electricity (say 18 c/kWh to allow for day rates and higher MIC costs).
You'd also have to pay for the land where the charger is on, the upgraded wiring etc
You'd also have to pay for each charger (50k min).
You'd also need a backend software and the ability to update it, and a customer service support.

All that has to be paid for before breakeven.

You can see why in the UK they are between 25-49p/kWh

Okay if they are 25 to 49p in the U.K then with Irish costs and desired profit I’d say it’s safe to say it will be a lot higher than that but hopefully not so expensive that it costs as much per km to run as a diesel

unkel · 15-08-2018 8:53am

Casati wrote: »

Any idea what the cost to charge will be at these sites?

We don't know yet, but it won't be cheap. As a pointer the highly successful Fastned in the Netherlands charge 59c per kWh if you don't pay any monthly subscription.

Casati wrote: »

I imagine each charging station will need to bring similar profit as a petrol/ diesel pump to make it viable long term for operators

We don't know the business model yet. But the margin on petrol / diesel is almost zero. The profit for the petrol station comes mainly from selling coffee / sandwiches etc. The EV owner is not only stuck for longer, but also generally more affluent, so is likely to bring a lot of profit to where ever he is fast charging (presuming of course he can spend his money there)

ELM327 · 15-08-2018 8:56am

unkel wrote: »

We don't know yet, but it won't be cheap. As a pointer the highly successful Fastned in the Netherlands charge 59c per kWh if you don't pay any monthly subscription.

We don't know the business model yet. But the margin on petrol / diesel is almost zero. The profit for the petrol station comes mainly from selling coffee / sandwiches etc. The EV owner is not only stuck for longer, but also generally more affluent, so is likely to bring a lot of profit to where ever he is fast charging (presuming of course he can spend his money there)

Yes but the dwell time is much longer.

Someone filling up with petrol is there only 5 minutes but in that time they can buy a coffee or a bar or a paper or a carwash. There's no shortage of retail space as there's multiple pumps and it doesnt take long to fill up

Not only are the EV chargers so expensive, the dwell time is too long. IE for 1 petrol pump the station could get 5-10 cars in an hour. More at busy times. The EV charger is 30 minutes average per car. So even if there's a queue that's only 2 per hour max.

Shefwedfan · 15-08-2018 8:58am

Casati wrote: »

Any idea what the cost to charge will be at these sites? I imagine each charging station will need to bring similar profit as a petrol/ diesel pump to make it viable long term for operators

It will be 1 million euros

unkel · 15-08-2018 9:15am

ELM327 wrote: »

Yes but the dwell time is much longer.

Aye. And because of that it would be much more reasonable to expect a charge per time and per kWh

Like 50c/minute + 50c/kWh or something like that

That's not the model that Fastned picked though, although back when they started no car could charge faster than 45kW, so it was much of a muchness

Personally I don't really care what they would charge. I'd happily pay EUR1 per minute + EUR1 per kWh if I can 100% rely on the service and would never have to wait

Casati · 15-08-2018 9:16am

unkel wrote: »

We don't know yet, but it won't be cheap. As a pointer the highly successful Fastned in the Netherlands charge 59c per kWh if you don't pay any monthly subscription.

We don't know the business model yet. But the margin on petrol / diesel is almost zero. The profit for the petrol station comes mainly from selling coffee / sandwiches etc. The EV owner is not only stuck for longer, but also generally more affluent, so is likely to bring a lot of profit to where ever he is fast charging (presuming of course he can spend his money there)[/quote

59 cent would be expensive but for the rare long distance journey where you can’t charge at home I guess EV owners won’t mind even paying a euro if they could charge quickly and not have to queue etc

unkel · 15-08-2018 9:17am

I beat you to it with the paying a euro

ted1 · 15-08-2018 11:03am

Casati wrote: »

Any idea what the cost to charge will be at these sites? I imagine each charging station will need to bring similar profit as a petrol/ diesel pump to make it viable long term for operators

As it takes longer yo fill , the garages can make additional money through ancillary services.
Fuel is about 66% tax so the profit per litre is about 5c per litre. So if they buy at commercial rates they could sell at about 1or 2 c above residential rates to make the same profit

ted1 · 15-08-2018 11:03am

Casati wrote: »

Any idea what the cost to charge will be at these sites? I imagine each charging station will need to bring similar profit as a petrol/ diesel pump to make it viable long term for operators

As it takes longer yo fill , the garages can make additional money through ancillary services.
Fuel is about 66% tax so the profit per litre is about 5c per litre. So if they buy at commercial rates they could sell at about 1or 2 c above residential rates to make the same profit

Casati · 15-08-2018 11:20am

ted1 wrote: »

As it takes longer yo fill , the garages can make additional money through ancillary services.
Fuel is about 66% tax so the profit per litre is about 5c per litre. So if they buy at commercial rates they could sell at about 1or 2 c above residential rates to make the same profit

The only thing is that no matter how affluent the e.v driver is they can only drink so many coffee’s in the time they are there - they would have to buy as much food or shop stuff as say 5 or 10 pump customers to match the revenue and profit per pump. Equally if they price it too high then the infrastructure won’t be used at all!

I’d say it’s extremely risky going into this business for them with EV’s coming with such long range that you’d never dream of charging anywhere but at home, so unlike petrol / diesel users it’s v difficult to predict potential demand.

FriendsEV · 15-08-2018 11:23am

ted1 wrote: »

As it takes longer yo fill , the garages can make additional money through ancillary services.
Fuel is about 66% tax so the profit per litre is about 5c per litre. So if they buy at commercial rates they could sell at about 1or 2 c above residential rates to make the same profit

Going to take a while to get that 70k charger cost back at 2c profit

bp_me · 15-08-2018 11:42am

Casati wrote: »

unkel wrote: »

We don't know yet, but it won't be cheap. As a pointer the highly successful Fastned in the Netherlands charge 59c per kWh if you don't pay any monthly subscription.

We don't know the business model yet. But the margin on petrol / diesel is almost zero. The profit for the petrol station comes mainly from selling coffee / sandwiches etc. The EV owner is not only stuck for longer, but also generally more affluent, so is likely to bring a lot of profit to where ever he is fast charging (presuming of course he can spend his money there)[/quote

59 cent would be expensive but for the rare long distance journey where you can’t charge at home I guess EV owners won’t mind even paying a euro if they could charge quickly and not have to queue etc

According to this article https://www.electrive.com/2018/06/23/norway-fortum-doubles-prices-for-fast-charging/ Fortum are charging 42c per minute in Norway though it had been 26c per minute.

unkel · 15-08-2018 11:44am

And they are going to compete with the free public charging system

I've no doubt about it, there is going to be a hefty premium to pay. Not 10% more than domestic rates, more like 1000% more than domestic rates. I've no problems with that

The only alleviating factor here is that it is a consortium interested in promoting their cars. Not so much set out to make maximum revenue / profit from this charging opportunity. Ionity 2018 is almost as forward thinking as the free for life Tesla Supercharger 2012 system

Shefwedfan · 15-08-2018 12:02pm

unkel wrote: »

And they are going to compete with the free public charging system

I've no doubt about it, there is going to be a hefty premium to pay. Not 10% more than domestic rates, more like 1000% more than domestic rates. I've no problems with that

The only alleviating factor here is that it is a consortium interested in promoting their cars. Not so much set out to make maximum revenue / profit from this charging opportunity. Ionity 2018 is almost as forward thinking as the free for life Tesla Supercharger 2012 system

If they work, are fast and not blocked I have no problem paying a premium

Hopefully they implement a system so if people do overstay their welcome they get a fairly hefty fine

jusmeig · 22-08-2018 10:33pm

Any update on when they are actually being built!?

thelikelylad · 28-08-2018 4:08pm

New application submitted for Cashel: http://www.eplanning.ie/TipperaryCC/AppFileRefDetails/18601043/0

Decision Due Date: 18/10/2018

uphillonly · 28-08-2018 4:22pm

thelikelylad wrote: »

New application submitted for Cashel: http://www.eplanning.ie/TipperaryCC/AppFileRefDetails/18601043/0

Decision Due Date: 18/10/2018

Thanks. Great to see it in writing: 'High Power Electric Vehicle Charging Station consisting of: (i) Installation of 6 no. electric vehicle charging bays...'

There's already an e-cars fast charge at that location so some direct competition and an addition from drivers point of view.

I don't do regular cross country driving but it looks a reasonable location for the first Ionity station, between cities for the longer drives.

liamog · 28-08-2018 6:24pm

They must have been reading boards, it's a perfect location for all the Dublin Cork return journeys in an Ioniq.

Cashel -> Cork -> Cashel is 185km.

Orebro · 28-08-2018 7:01pm

liamog wrote: »

They must have been reading boards, it's a perfect location for all the Dublin Cork return journeys in an Ioniq.

Cashel -> Cork -> Cashel is 185km.

I have serious Ioniq want now :-)

ei9go · 28-08-2018 7:38pm

liamog wrote: »

They must have been reading boards, it's a perfect location for all the Dublin Cork return journeys in an Ioniq.

Cashel -> Cork -> Cashel is 185km.

Yes but Dublin to Cashel is 167 km. Will the Ioniq get there on the motorway in winter or bad weather?

ei9go · 28-08-2018 7:40pm

thelikelylad wrote: »

New application submitted for Cashel: http://www.eplanning.ie/TipperaryCC/AppFileRefDetails/18601043/0

Decision Due Date: 18/10/2018

Notice the charger part of the application is marker "Incompleted".

Does that mean they have not decided or is the application incomplete?

liamog · 28-08-2018 8:03pm

ei9go wrote: »

Yes but Dublin to Cashel is 167 km. Will the Ioniq get there on the motorway in winter or bad weather?

Yep, that's the easy part of the trip, you wouldn't risk it now with only one rapid in Cashel but if there was 6, I would.

JohnnyJohnJohns · 28-08-2018 9:38pm

I'm assuming they'll put a station at the Obama plaza as it's the only Circle K services on the M7 and has no FCP as it is. Good location for Ioniq and Leaf 2018.

If that's the case I wouldn't consider the Niro worth the upgrade costs.

liamog · 28-08-2018 9:44pm

JohnnyJohnJohns wrote: »

I'm assuming they'll put a station at the Obama plaza as it's the only Circle K services on the M7 and has no FCP as it is. Good location for Ioniq and Leaf 2018.

One thing to be aware of, Ionity is CCS only, they are basically being installed by the CCS industry group.

JohnnyJohnJohns · 28-08-2018 9:52pm

liamog wrote: »

One thing to be aware of, Ionity is CCS only, they are basically being installed by the CCS industry group.

Forgot about that, then it'd be perfect for the Ioniq at least!

Ionity charging network

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