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Should log cabins be legal to live in??

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    #32
    Metric Tensor
    Registered Users Posts: 3,724 ✭✭✭Metric Tensor


    lalababa wrote: »
    According to the building regs, what consitutes an acceptable load bearing exterior wall?? Now that's an interesting question.

    Not 100% sure what you mean? Part A (Structure) doesn't really care what you build the wall out of provided it can hold the appropriate load.

    Parts B, C, D, E and L have various requirements in terms of Fire, Moisture, Materials, Sound and Insulation but again they don't specify that it "has" to be something - they give performance criteria it must meet so you can make your walls out of anything that meets those criteria.


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    #33
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,436 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    lalababa wrote: »
    According to the building regs, what consitutes an acceptable load bearing exterior wall?? Now that's an interesting question.

    A wall that complies with the principles of structural engineering.
    It has to be capable of taking the loading from the roof, dead and imposed in all weather including 1 in 100 year storms.

    It also has to withstand fire for a period of time.

    It might seem like an interesting question, but in reality it’s not. We’ve been here before.


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    #34
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,988 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    lalababa wrote: »
    According to the building regs, what consitutes an acceptable load bearing exterior wall?? Now that's an interesting question.

    Why don't the sellers of these sheds do the work necessary to bring them in line with building regs would be a much better pertinent question.

    The answer is of course that the costs incurred would have them back on par with other standard methods of building.


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    #35
    lalababa
    Registered Users Posts: 1,726 ✭✭✭lalababa


    According to regs, for example, how thick would the log need to be, of say Nordic spruce, to satisfy parts B, C, D, & errr L? 500mm ? Assuming they are strong enough structurally.
    Any experts?


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    #36
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,436 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    lalababa wrote: »
    According to regs, for example, how thick would the log need to be, of say Nordic spruce, to satisfy parts B, C, D, & errr L? 500mm ? Assuming they are strong enough structurally.
    Any experts?

    Structurally probably less.
    Fire safety of the structure can be achieved as the charting effect helps.

    But you still have heat loss issues, air tightness issues and protection of said structure from fire so that means fixing a plasterboard system to the log. The manufacturers of the said plasterboard system have no test criterial for this so it technically cannot be certified.


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    #37
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,008 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    I don't think any of these "log cabins" are made out of actual logs, that would be way too expensive. They're treated T&G spruce (or fibre cement) boards on a timber frame.


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    #38
    Bdjsjsjs
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 82 ✭✭Bdjsjsjs


    There is some misinformation on this thread and frankly it is from people who should know better.

    A real logcabin has good fire safety and adding plasterboard to its wouldnt help fire safety remotely. However the cabins sold in Ireland are basically hardy garden sheds. True log cabins have met building code before and I presume they could meet new building codes being developed.


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    #39
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,436 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Bdjsjsjs wrote: »
    There is some misinformation on this thread and frankly it is from people who should know better.

    A real logcabin has good fire safety and adding plasterboard to its wouldnt help fire safety remotely. However the cabins sold in Ireland are basically hardy garden sheds. True log cabins have met building code before and I presume they could meet new building codes being developed.

    Misinformation is from people not reading the thread.
    The log cabins posters are talking here are the €20k cabins that seemly provide 2 bedrooms!

    So I don’t think any of the seasoned posters on here are under any illusions that we are talking about properly constructed and treated log cabins as such.


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    #40
    Metric Tensor
    Registered Users Posts: 3,724 ✭✭✭Metric Tensor


    Bdjsjsjs wrote: »
    the cabins sold in Ireland are basically hardy garden sheds


    This is what everyone (with sense) on this thread has been saying since the start.


    Nobody said it's impossible to meet the building regulations using alternative materials and construction styles. It's very possible - but no cheaper than the existing prevalent methods.


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    #41
    lalababa
    Registered Users Posts: 1,726 ✭✭✭lalababa


    Does anybody know how to make the walls of a log cabin meet current building regulations?? How thick, what wood, moisture content, treated with what.. etc.?


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    #42
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,988 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    lalababa wrote: »
    Does anybody know how to make the walls of a log cabin meet current building regulations?? How thick, what wood, moisture content, treated with what.. etc.?

    nope... as there are a myriad of standards to be tested and certified against....

    why do you think the providers of these are so reluctant to actually have a product which they can stand over as a habitable house?


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    #43
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,436 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    lalababa wrote: »
    Does anybody know how to make the walls of a log cabin meet current building regulations?? How thick, what wood, moisture content, treated with what.. etc.?

    Million dollar question.
    Theres no way at the moment. No products are certified for use on sheds/log cabins (Irish version).


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    #44
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    wall as follows, Inside to out:
    Plasterboard,
    50mm service void, (mineral wool at key junctions)
    Vapour barrier/air-tightness membrane ,
    225mm timber framed wall full fill cellulose insulation (twin wall 100mm studs with bracing between),
    Racking board osb,
    breathable felt,
    Cross battened vented cavity (gutex used at key junctions),
    Cement fibre board,
    Acrylic render

    There are lots of timber framed methods used in Ireland that comply/exceed building regs, I don’t know any ‘log cabin’ walls that do.


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    #45
    Bdjsjsjs
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 82 ✭✭Bdjsjsjs


    BryanF wrote: »
    wall as follows, Inside to out:
    Plasterboard,
    50mm service void, (mineral wool at key junctions)
    Vapour barrier/air-tightness membrane ,
    225mm timber framed wall full fill cellulose insulation (twin wall 100mm studs with bracing between),
    Racking board osb,
    breathable felt,
    Cross battened vented cavity (gutex used at key junctions),
    Cement fibre board,
    Acrylic render

    There are lots of timber framed methods used in Ireland that comply/exceed building regs, I don’t know any ‘log cabin’ walls that do.

    That list is a useful guide to make any room (like those garden sheds) meet code but absolutely you do not need these specs to meet code in all conditions. An actual log cabin from the 1700s would meet many of the code requirements by default.


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    #46
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,008 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Bdjsjsjs wrote: »
    An actual log cabin from the 1700s would meet many of the code requirements by default.

    That statement is neither useful nor accurate.

    Apart from anything else, the major demand for hardwoods in Ireland in the 18th century would have been shipbuilding, and the softwoods were used for charcoal production to produce iron and glass. Such was the demand that by around 1800 there weren't any forests left. As far as I know, nobody was using logs for housing at that time, or since.

    Current Irish timber production is mostly Sitka spruce, which grows very well here (albeit with ruinous environmental consequences), and that wood is not suitable for ground contact (if any wood is, in Irish ground conditions).

    Modern timber frame construction is proper engineering, in the sense that the structure is designed to meet loads using the least amount of timber possible. The timber is usually lifted off the ground and screened from weather, so it lasts indefinitely, is good value and high performance. Which is why professional builders use it.

    Building with actual logs would be ruinously expensive, impractical and would require external and/or internal insulation to achieve the required energy performance. i.e. it's a stupid idea.


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    #47
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,988 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Bdjsjsjs wrote: »
    That list is a useful guide to make any room (like those garden sheds) meet code but absolutely you do not need these specs to meet code in all conditions. An actual log cabin from the 1700s would meet many of the code requirements by default.

    Well that's just compete rubbish.


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    #48
    Bdjsjsjs
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 82 ✭✭Bdjsjsjs


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    Well that's just compete rubbish.
    No its not. As stated a million times, the glorified garden sheds sold here are not log cabins. Well built traditional style log cabins are not passive level but they would be more airtight, secure and fire proof than a lot of the Irish housing stock but its not an easy cheap solution as the materials and skills required to build one are not available here so it would be very very pricey. They are a traditional European building style but not in Ireland. Logically only a handful have been built in Ireland.


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    #49
    Bdjsjsjs
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 82 ✭✭Bdjsjsjs


    Lumen wrote: »
    That statement is neither useful nor accurate.

    Apart from anything else, the major demand for hardwoods in Ireland in the 18th century would have been shipbuilding, and the softwoods were used for charcoal production to produce iron and glass. Such was the demand that by around 1800 there weren't any forests left. As far as I know, nobody was using logs for housing at that time, or since.

    Current Irish timber production is mostly Sitka spruce, which grows very well here (albeit with ruinous environmental consequences), and that wood is not suitable for ground contact (if any wood is, in Irish ground conditions).

    Modern timber frame construction is proper engineering, in the sense that the structure is designed to meet loads using the least amount of timber possible. The timber is usually lifted off the ground and screened from weather, so it lasts indefinitely, is good value and high performance. Which is why professional builders use it.

    Building with actual logs would be ruinously expensive, impractical and would require external and/or internal insulation to achieve the required energy performance. i.e. it's a stupid idea.
    I am afraid you are totally misquoting me. I didnt say log cabins were built here in 1700s. They are not a traditional Irish style.

    Hardwoods were heavily used for charcoal production.

    Neither did I say they are a cheap option.

    Modern style timber housing is great but needless to say timber structures from hundreds of years ago still stand in UK and elsewhere. Sometimes they use stone footings, like many traditional log cabins but you clearly don't know a lot about timber. So please educate your self and read what people write before attacking them.


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    #50
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,008 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Bdjsjsjs wrote: »
    Sometimes they use stone footings, like many traditional log cabins but you clearly don't know a lot about timber. So pleased educate you self and read what people write before attacking them.

    I was not attacking you, I was responding to the ideas in your post.

    Whereas you claim that I "clearly don't know a lot about timber", which is a personal attack.

    So you're wrong, again. :D

    I am familiar with the use of pad foundations in post and beam construction. It's commonly used in oak framed construction in the UK, but not much in Ireland for various reasons, not least the lack of oak.


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    #51
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,988 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Bdjsjsjs wrote: »
    more airtight, secure and fire proof than a lot of the Irish housing stock.

    proof please?

    you refer to building standards as "code" so im going to suggest your not overly familiar with irish building regulations and standards. american or canadian influence i wonder?

    single skin log cabins.......... (which is exactly what we are talking about here... again let me quote you the query which is being dealt with)
    Does anybody know how to make the walls of a log cabin meet current building regulations??

    ........... will come nowhere near the requirements of irish building regulations in regards to energy efficiency regulations ie elemental u values, air tightness, etc.

    can you point me please to log cabins for sale in ireland which have tested and certified results for u values compatible with an A3 house without remedial works?
    or for air tightness results suitable for MHRV (lets say 3m3/(h.m2) without significant remedial works?

    they do not comply with the requirements of fire spread in TGB in regard to internal linings.. without significant remedial works applied.
    https://www.log-cabins-revealed.com/log-cabin-fire-treatment.html

    can you show me any log cabin for sale in ireland that has a fire spread (linings) rating of B7 or better without remedial works ??


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    #52
    BarryD2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,732 ✭✭✭BarryD2


    Lumen wrote: »
    As far as I know, nobody was using logs for housing at that time, or since.

    People often lived in very rudimentary housing in rural Ireland - sod houses and the like. Even stone built structures with thatch roofs were often very basic as is well documented in written 19thC descriptions. On the plus side, this sort of accommodation was manageable for local communities. It didn't require huge skill and the materials were all got locally. When the buildings became unoccupied, they disintegrated and merged back into the landscape. I'm not suggesting for a minute that people should go back to living in mud hovels but the point is that people then at least had the capacity to provide shelter for themselves and their families.

    Contrast that to modern times, when everything is bound up in regulation and specialisation. The provision of accommodation has fallen outside the means of the ordinary citizen and the buildings we usually construct now, draw far more on the earths resources and use materials that will persist longer after a building has been abandoned.

    Apart from all that, there are people living in mobile homes up and down the country. Where they're on private land, you don't see or hear or any particular push from local authorities to have them vacated.


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    #53
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,988 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    BarryD2 wrote: »
    Contrast that to modern times, when everything is bound up in regulation and specialisation. The provision of accommodation has fallen outside the means of the ordinary citizen and the buildings we usually construct now, draw far more on the earths resources and use materials that will persist longer after a building has been abandoned.
    .

    carbon emissions from residential sector rose by 7.9% last year.
    the older housing stock being the worst contributors obviously.

    you cannot make the above argument as being acceptable in the reality of global warming, climate change and fuel shortages.
    BarryD2 wrote: »
    Apart from all that, there are people living in mobile homes up and down the country. Where they're on private land, you don't see or hear or any particular push from local authorities to have them vacated.

    People who live full time in mobile homes have a life expectancy almost 20% lower than people who do not. They are significantly more prone to having continuous medical issues due to living in substandard accommodation.

    i don't know about you, but i do not want that situation for any of my family or children. We're not america, trailer parks are not acceptable here.


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    #54
    Bdjsjsjs
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 82 ✭✭Bdjsjsjs


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    carbon emissions from residential sector rose by 7.9% last year.
    the older housing stock being the worst contributors obviously.

    you cannot make the above argument as being acceptable in the reality of global warming, climate change and fuel shortages.



    People who live full time in mobile homes have a life expectancy almost 20% lower than people who do not. They are significantly more prone to having continuous medical issues due to living in substandard accommodation.

    i don't know about you, but i do not want that situation for any of my family or children. We're not america, trailer parks are not acceptable here.
    Studies of UK building stock found early postwar buildings were the least efficient, worse than Victorian buildings. A Dublin BER of a Georgian townhouse with single glazing estimated BER at D1.


    This is after decades of decay and without the consideration for efficiency and modern building science in mind. if you use 1750s technology with modern building science you can take efficiency much higher.


    https://passivehouseplus.ie/articles/conservation/does-old-mean-cold


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    proof please?

    you refer to building standards as "code" so im going to suggest your not overly familiar with irish building regulations and standards. american or canadian influence i wonder?

    single skin log cabins.......... (which is exactly what we are talking about here... again let me quote you the query which is being dealt with)


    ........... will come nowhere near the requirements of irish building regulations in regards to energy efficiency regulations ie elemental u values, air tightness, etc.

    can you point me please to log cabins for sale in ireland which have tested and certified results for u values compatible with an A3 house without remedial works?
    or for air tightness results suitable for MHRV (lets say 3m3/(h.m2) without significant remedial works?

    they do not comply with the requirements of fire spread in TGB in regard to internal linings.. without significant remedial works applied.
    https://www.log-cabins-revealed.com/log-cabin-fire-treatment.html

    can you show me any log cabin for sale in ireland that has a fire spread (linings) rating of B7 or better without remedial works ??

    Again you are using strawmen to push your agenda. So few real log cabins have been built in Ireland but I don't even know if even if 5 real log cabins have been been built here. They are so rare so I have no idea if they met code but they were legally built so you could look into it. But I do know that if it is possible to meet regulations if done well. In contrast I have been in post 2011 houses that were freezing and truly uncomfortable buildings. Draughty drywall opening to cold attics and fibreglass absent from large parts of the attic ceiling. Block is a great material but in homes the quality of the craftsmanship is more important than the material.



    A log built built wall is very slow to burn. Garden sheds burn easily.


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    #55
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,988 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    so....

    absolutely no proof at all then????

    none? not even an air tight test result on a real life example??

    thats not very good for any argument you are trying to make.


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    #56
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,436 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Bdjsjsjs wrote: »

    So few real log cabins have been built in Ireland but I don't even know if even if 5 real log cabins have been been built here. They are so rare so I have no idea if they met code but they were legally built so you could look into it.

    You are the one arguing that they exist, the onus is on you to provide proof, otherwise your posts cant be taken seriously and can be considering trolling.

    So, the onus is on you to demonstrate a Building Regulation compliant Log Cabin here in Ireland ( or Code Compliant as you put it, which would appear to show you are not involved in any way in the Irish Construction Industry as we do not use that word, either here, the UK or close by).

    Bdjsjsjs wrote: »
    In contrast I have been in post 2011 houses that were freezing and truly uncomfortable buildings. Draughty drywall opening to cold attics and fibreglass absent from large parts of the attic ceiling. Block is a great material but in homes the quality of the craftsmanship is more important than the material.

    This is not a Building Regulation failure, its a workmanship failure then. If the products have not been installed correctly, then how can you expect the whole package or house envelope to perform correctly. Also, if these issues are known, then why are they not fixed in those particular dwellings?


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    #57
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    BarryD2 wrote: »
    there are people living in mobile homes up and down the country. Where they're on private land, you don't see or hear or any particular push from local authorities to have them vacated.

    BryanF wrote: »

    Everyone posting in this thread, please read sections 2,3 & 6 of the forum charter.

    We obey the law in this forum, posters intimating/ discussing how to skirt the law will be banned, thanks
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055036302
    .


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    #58
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    The contradictions!
    Bdjsjsjs wrote: »
    Again you are using strawmen to push your agenda. So few real log cabins have been built in Ireland but I don't even know if even if 5 real log cabins have been been built here. They are so rare so I have no idea if they met codebut they were legally built so you could look into it. .
    So you don’t know if the meet code, but you then you state
    Bdjsjsjs wrote: »
    That list is a useful guide to make any room (like those garden sheds) meet code but absolutely you do not need these specs to meet code in all conditions. An actual log cabin from the 1700s would meet many of the code requirements by default.

    I’m struggling to see anything other than trolling here.

    This is an Irish forum btw, so we comply with Irish codes, discussing Irish building methods


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    #59
    BarryD2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,732 ✭✭✭BarryD2


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    People who live full time in mobile homes have a life expectancy almost 20% lower than people who do not. They are significantly more prone to having continuous medical issues due to living in substandard accommodation.

    There is a serious shortage of accommodation in some parts of the state and in places the rents are quite disproportionate to ordinary peoples earnings. We all know this.

    Part of the reason for this situation is the ever expanding raft of regulation and legislation surrounding construction. At some stage it's fair enough for people to step back and say they'd rather live in accommodation that doesn't meet all the standards but which is affordable. U values and carbon footprints mean little to people put to the pin of their collar to have a roof over their heads.

    This regulation and legislation is brought in to try and raise standards of accommodation which is fair enough but I'll guarantee that the people drafting these laws don't have to face the consequences of their decisions.


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    #60
    Bdjsjsjs
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 82 ✭✭Bdjsjsjs


    BryanF wrote: »
    The contradictions!
    So you don’t know if the meet code, but you then you state

    I’m struggling to see anything other than trolling here.

    This is an Irish forum btw, so we comply with Irish codes, discussing Irish building methods

    You claimed that the following specs would be needed to meet
    wall as follows, Inside to out:
    Plasterboard,
    50mm service void, (mineral wool at key junctions)
    Vapour barrier/air-tightness membrane ,
    225mm timber framed wall full fill cellulose insulation (twin wall 100mm studs with bracing between),
    Racking board osb,
    breathable felt,
    Cross battened vented cavity (gutex used at key junctions),
    Cement fibre board,
    Acrylic render
    It isn't correct.

    I appreciate that you made a crude list for someone probably considering a buying a garden shed for a home. But it is just that, a crude list and needless to say, that many Irish houses today meeting the regs don't have such specs you list, as you would know. I am not trolling, I am fact checking and defending excellent traditional construction methods.


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    #61
    Bdjsjsjs
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 82 ✭✭Bdjsjsjs


    kceire wrote: »
    You are the one arguing that they exist, the onus is on you to provide proof, otherwise your posts cant be taken seriously and can be considering trolling.

    So, the onus is on you to demonstrate a Building Regulation compliant Log Cabin here in Ireland ( or Code Compliant as you put it, which would appear to show you are not involved in any way in the Irish Construction Industry as we do not use that word, either here, the UK or close by).

    This is not a Building Regulation failure, its a workmanship failure then. If the products have not been installed correctly, then how can you expect the whole package or house envelope to perform correctly. Also, if these issues are known, then why are they not fixed in those particular dwellings?
    WTF? When did I say that Irish building code was failing? I was making the point that modern methods can be used badly too.

    In the cases I have seen the builders are not interested in fixing them. I wasn't involved with them.


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