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21-07-2020, 11:20   #2371
Danno
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Yesterday there was a Green Party Councillor on local radio wagging her finger about emissions from transport and that she wants motorway speed limits reduced to 110km/hr as part of an effort to achieve "our" 7% reduction.

A quick peek at her social media page and she is proudly posing in a selfie at the EU Parliament in Brussels describing how "inspiring" it was to visit there just last December. I do wonder whether she cycled or swam across the Celtic Sea to get there, or perhaps she drove at 110km/hr on one of these new fancy car-boats. Or maybe she flew on a fuel-guzzling plane that spewed out about a decade's worth of carbon that ordinary Joe or Jane would emit on the super-fast M6 motorway between Moate and Athlone?

Another gem on her social media: ""we need nature, nature doesn't need people". I think it's attitudes like hers that we don't need quite frankly. But the sad part of it all is that people vote for this party. A party of hypocrites who are in the "do as I say, not as I do" camp. These charlatans should be called out at every single turn because of this attitude.

Last edited by Danno; 21-07-2020 at 11:33.
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30-07-2020, 14:44   #2372
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All of this poisoning of the well, calling activists and politicians hypocrites and challenging their authenticity is all a lovely way to avoid the argument about whether climate change is actually real and what we actually need to do to limit our impact on the global climate

I have said this over and over again. Individual action is not going to solve the problem, it requires global collective action, and this requires political action at national and supernational level.

Dealing with the coronavirus has cost the global economy trillions of dollars

Climate change is a much bigger crisis than Coronavirus because there is no vaccine or Herd immunity for climate change. If we spent even a fraction of the resources that we spent on coronavirus mitigation, on creating renewable energy infrastructure, decomissioning old fossil fuel powerstations, creating new electric vehicle infrastructure, building electric high speed mass transit infrastrucure to reduce the need to fly or drive etc etc, then we would be some way towards mitigating climate change, and we would also have the benefit of 21st century infrastructure that is based on cheap, clean renewable energy instead of dirty expensive polluting fossil fuels
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30-07-2020, 15:30   #2373
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Cheap, renewable energy. I agree with you on that much. The rest is all just nonsense.

Saying that climate change is more serious that an acute global pandemic with no cure is typical of the crazy hyperbole that confirms the removal of people like you from realistic and reasoned thought.

Man has adapted to changing environments for as long as man has been on this planet. There is no climatic change capable of causing the acute emergency that could fill a hospital ICU like we saw in e.g. Lombardia in Italy. You will, of course, claim that this or that hurricane/flood/drought/snowstorm/heatwave/fire is intrinsically linked to AGW, but as always the link - if any exists - will be a lot less tenuous than you claim. I'm sure you'll come in with claims on this year's Atlantic hurricane season, yet to do so would, by your definition, be just cherrypicking, as the globe as a whole is only operating at about half the LTA tropical activity, despite the large number of Atlantic named systems so far (a couple of which did not warrant naming, imo).
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30-07-2020, 22:21   #2374
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All of this poisoning of the well, calling activists and politicians hypocrites and challenging their authenticity is all a lovely way to avoid the argument about whether climate change is actually real and what we actually need to do to limit our impact on the global climate

I have said this over and over again. Individual action is not going to solve the problem, it requires global collective action, and this requires political action at national and supernational level.

Dealing with the coronavirus has cost the global economy trillions of dollars

Climate change is a much bigger crisis than Coronavirus because there is no vaccine or Herd immunity for climate change. If we spent even a fraction of the resources that we spent on coronavirus mitigation, on creating renewable energy infrastructure, decomissioning old fossil fuel powerstations, creating new electric vehicle infrastructure, building electric high speed mass transit infrastrucure to reduce the need to fly or drive etc etc, then we would be some way towards mitigating climate change, and we would also have the benefit of 21st century infrastructure that is based on cheap, clean renewable energy instead of dirty expensive polluting fossil fuels
I suggest you read up on the matter cos many so called "green" energy sources are far from "cheap" or "clean" in reality. EG. since supports for wind farms came in here 20 years ago our power prices have gone from below the EU averge to near the top of the league - all this at a time when oil and NG prices have tanked.
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31-07-2020, 00:34   #2375
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[quote="Gaoth Laidir;114177600"]Cheap, renewable energy. I agree with you on that much. The rest is all just nonsense.

Saying that climate change is more serious that an acute global pandemic with no cure is typical of the crazy hyperbole that confirms the removal of people like you from realistic and reasoned thought.
[\quote]
Coronavirus will be a footnote in the history books in 50 years time. Climate change will be omnipresent, affecting every aspect of economic political and cultural life.


The scale of those effects depends on the actions we take now
Quote:

Man has adapted to changing environments for as long as man has been on this planet. There is no climatic change capable of causing the acute emergency that could fill a hospital ICU like we saw in e.g. Lombardia in Italy. You will, of course, claim that this or that hurricane/flood/drought/snowstorm/heatwave/fire is intrinsically linked to AGW, but as always the link - if any exists - will be a lot less tenuous than you claim. I'm sure you'll come in with claims on this year's Atlantic hurricane season, yet to do so would, by your definition, be just cherrypicking, as the globe as a whole is only operating at about half the LTA tropical activity, despite the large number of Atlantic named systems so far (a couple of which did not warrant naming, imo).
You’re looking at a mole that has just started changing color and rationalizing that it cannot be cancer even though you have been shown the biopsy results that say it is malignant

Climate change is cumulative and the effects will worsen over time, just like cancer. If you ignore the diagnosis and wait until the symptoms are severe it’s too late to prevent metastasis
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31-07-2020, 08:54   #2376
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Again, merely changing the medical analogy does nothing to strengthen your point. What will it be next; tuberculosis?
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31-07-2020, 12:30   #2377
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Again, merely changing the medical analogy does nothing to strengthen your point. What will it be next; tuberculosis?
The analogy is perfectly apt.

Cancer can be present for years before there are any symptoms, but once symptoms begin to show, it is often too late to cure the disease. That is why we have cancer screening programs to catch it early enough to treat it.


Climate change was discovered and linked to increasing CO2 levels decades before we had any evidence of the actual symptoms of climate change manifesting themselves in the global climate system. Natural variability is real and small increases in global average temperature are easily masked by the natural variability that still exists, but climate change didn't stop at small increases, it is now at 1 degree Celsius above preindustrial levels and this is causing identifiable events that would have been impossible without AGW

But even without waiting to measure events as they occur, climate scientists were still able to use models and look back at prehistoric climate records to estimate how the earth will be affected by the rising global average temperatures and the prognosis was that we should do whatever we can to prevent CO2 from going above 350ppm

This was to give humans the best chance to avoid any of the major side effects of climate change. Unfortunately we overshot that target and we are now at 400ppm and over one degree C of warming above pre-industrial levels and we are seeing the start of the predicted consequences becoming the new normal.

Like living with cancer, being in a certain amount of pain is now a fact of life that can be managed to a certain extent, but the cancer is not cured, it is not in remission, it is still growing, and the pain we are seeing today is just the beginning of what we can expect as the disease spreads.

We're still increasing our atmospheric CO2 concentration and on track to more than double Pre-industrial levels within the next few decades, and this is likely to more than double the amount of warming we have seen so far. The consequences of this are like ignorng a growing tumour because it hasn't been causing much pain early on, until it suddenly metastasises and begns to grow in your pancreas and liver and bone marrow and you face the reality that you are termnally ill without any hope of treatment

Our climate is still (hopefully) within our own hands, we can begin aggressive treatment, take the short term pain to invest heavily in clean renewable technology as soon as possible to mitigate the risk that one or more tipping points will be breached that cause a runaway climate change, a metastatic cancer that is no longer treatable by reducing human emissions. Nobody knows exactly where these tipping points are, just as no Oncologist knows exactly when a cancer will metastasize but they do know that the best way to reduce the risk is to treat it early and aggressively if possible

By the time the symptoms of climate change are unequivocal to even the morst ardent skeptic, it will be far too late to act to reduce the consequences. By the time you see the symptoms of cancer, the cancer is already life threateing.
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31-07-2020, 15:13   #2378
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Using cancer, of which most of us on here has known at least one person who had died all too young from it, as an analogy to climate change is in very poor taste and as about as poor of optics as can be used.
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31-07-2020, 18:14   #2379
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Oh come on

We’re all adults here.Since when did simply referring to cancer in an analogy become offensive?
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31-07-2020, 19:32   #2380
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Oh come on

We’re all adults here.Since when did simply referring to cancer in an analogy become offensive?
I would say it’s more along the lines of the intention of using cancer as it’s synonymous with something terrible. ie AGW is equal to cancer, which it’s clearly not.

One could also say that AGW is religious cult that has seized political power. Where more and more of its proponents focus on shutting down dialogue, as was the way with the majority of leading religions.


What is the case here is that the majority of people want a clean healthy planet, but aren’t on board with the alarmist “Algorian” view that we are doomed.
The argument of Cherry Picking and ‘weather’ is now a favourite tactic to use of AGW supporters.

Fatigue is setting in, as people see that there has been no adverse effect, prominent figures in Africa are leaning towards this being a rich ‘white’ person pursuit. Where save the XYZ comes at the cost of African standard of living.

Action starts at the consumer not at the collective/political level. Carbon is expended by and large to support consumerism. Being a keyboard warrior earns you no carbon credits.

Buy local. Reduce expenditure of luxuries. Walk!
If a company is dirty, boycott.
Goya Beans was boycotted by a group of Twitter iPhone using, Bolivian coffee drinking, sketcher wearing hypocrites!
Much like the hypocrisy of AGW.
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31-07-2020, 20:46   #2381
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Fatigue is setting in, as people see that there has been no adverse effect, prominent figures in Africa are leaning towards this being a rich ‘white’ person pursuit. Where save the XYZ comes at the cost of African standard of living.
I posted a good article month's back on this thread (or a thread similar to this) that highlighted this very point. Developing and 3rd world peoples have basically zero interest in 'climate change', because it is, as you rightly state, a worry of the most privileged in our society, and as the old saying goes, those who preach the loudest...

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31-07-2020, 22:19   #2382
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I posted a good article month's back on this thread (or a thread similar to this) that highlighted this very point. Developing and 3rd world peoples have basically zero interest in 'climate change', because it is, as you rightly state, a worry of the most privileged in our society, and as the old saying goes, those who preach the loudest...
If we figured out how to share wealth more evenly, as rising inequality causes environmental degradation to also increase
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31-07-2020, 23:15   #2383
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I would say it’s more along the lines of the intention of using cancer as it’s synonymous with something terrible. ie AGW is equal to cancer, which it’s clearly not.
I was clearly making the point that Climate change is similar to cancer in it is insidious where it can grow with few Obvious symptoms, and when the symptoms become pronounced it is often too late to treat it successfully

The obvious point was that when we have a diagnosis of a serious progressive disease, early treatment dramatically improves the prognosis
(If treatment exists)

Quote:
One could also say that AGW is religious cult that has seized political power. Where more and more of its proponents focus on shutting down dialogue, as was the way with the majority of leading religions.
one could say this if one happens to be a climate change denier

Quote:
What is the case here is that the majority of people want a clean healthy planet, but aren’t on board with the alarmist “Algorian” view that we are doomed.
The argument of Cherry Picking and ‘weather’ is now a favourite tactic to use of AGW supporters.

Fatigue is setting in, as people see that there has been no adverse effect, prominent figures in Africa are leaning towards this being a rich ‘white’ person pursuit. Where save the XYZ comes at the cost of African standard of living.

Action starts at the consumer not at the collective/political level. Carbon is expended by and large to support consumerism. Being a keyboard warrior earns you no carbon credits.

Buy local. Reduce expenditure of luxuries. Walk!
If a company is dirty, boycott.
Goya Beans was boycotted by a group of Twitter iPhone using, Bolivian coffee drinking, sketcher wearing hypocrites!
Much like the hypocrisy of AGW.
Absolute nonsense and nowhere near the action necessary to avoid climate change

Boycotts do not provide investment for new infrastructure and you need political action to regulate industry. The boycotts should be to prompt political action, not to replace it
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04-08-2020, 00:25   #2384
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Saw an article this week that Ireland are on track to start meeting 40% of electricity demand from renewable sources this year

This is really good news. Energy production is an engineering problem. Climate change can be solved with proper investment in engineering solutions with a smaller element related to behavioral changes

Those same behaviors need to change if we’re going to reduce all of the other negative impacts on our biosphere caused by thoughtless human activity

The political action required to prevent climate change should work in tandem with every other sustainable goal. Reduce, reuse, recycle and use renewable energy.
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04-08-2020, 07:42   #2385
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Not living in Ireland, I am a bit foggy on the details, how is electricity generated there? In Canada we have almost unlimited hydro-electric opportunity, some attempts to integrate wind farms into grids that has largely proved a waste of public resources, nuclear energy that the left will not support expanding for political reasons that have their origin in the cold war, never made sense then and make less sense now (and we have untapped uranium resources) ... and a few coal fired generating stations that are being phased out in eastern Canada.

As to vehicle preferences, electric and hybrid vehicles have captured a small part of the market but people seem to have concerns about their power ratios.
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