Cork - BusConnects

donvito99 · 28-06-2021 9:23pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

The problem with that approach was, as I said, that the Dublin Choices report was simply too high level, and to be honest the population responding was rather skewed towards those with a specific interest in the topic.

It clearly wasn’t what people wanted as the result of the first draft proved in relation to existing journeys to/from the city.

This just demonstrates that the public really don't know what they want and that there's only so much use to a public consultation.

LXFlyer · 28-06-2021 9:31pm

donvito99 wrote: »

This just demonstrates that the public really don't know what they want and that there's only so much use to a public consultation.

Well actually, they generally do know what they want when a detailed plan is presented.

When extremely high level and simplistic options (or questions) are presented or posed, you can get a very skewed response because people don’t fully understand the implications.

That original choices report was far too high level and simplistic.

The number of responses to the first draft network proposal I think would counter your theory didn’t know what they wanted. They didn’t want changing to the degree it required, that much was clear.

densification · 28-06-2021 10:01pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

Well actually, they generally do know what they want when a detailed plan is presented.

When extremely high level and simplistic options (or questions) are presented or posed, you can get a very skewed response because people don’t fully understand the implications.

That original choices report was far too high level and simplistic.

The number of responses to the first draft network proposal I think would counter your theory didn’t know what they wanted. They didn’t want changing to the degree it required, that much was clear.

I’ve been changing buses on my commutes for years. It’s grand when there both frequent and have enough capacity. Maybe it’s a fear of the unknown?

I wonder how much opposition was stoked up by opportunistic politicians who thought they could start a local campaign and get their name out there .

LXFlyer · 29-06-2021 7:41am

densification wrote: »

I’ve been changing buses on my commutes for years. It’s grand when there both frequent and have enough capacity. Maybe it’s a fear of the unknown?

I wonder how much opposition was stoked up by opportunistic politicians who thought they could start a loca
l campaign and get their name out there .

I would agree with the emboldened section.

However, without digressing too much, the original BusConnects network proposal, while developing the Spines and introducing many new orbital routes:

* Involved removing many existing direct connections to/from the city centre
* Actually reduced the number of buses going through the city centre (thereby reducing capacity)
* Redirected many routes to local DART/LUAS stations/stops onto rail based services that were already jammed
* Often featured low frequency connecting services (30/60 mins) at outer areas replacing direct links to/from the city
* Was introducing these without putting the necessary infrastucture in place to guarantee that the connecting service from the city would arrive on time to meet that low frequency outer route
* Removed bus services from many existing routes altogether redirecting people onto main roads

That was all produced on the basis of an online survey which asked very simplistic, high level questions, about attitudes towards changing en route, but didn't mention removing existing direct connections to/from the city centre, low frequency connecting routes for certain areas, enforced transfers to/from LUAS/DART etc.

My point being that if you ask a set of simple questions, you can get a desired result very easily from the questionnaire.

The devil, especially when it comes to public transport networks, is in the detail. That's what led to the far superior network in the final proposal.

Hence I think they need to just get on with this and focus on producing the revised network in Cork that:

*Delivers Spines with integrated timetables on them at high frequency
*Greatly enhances the number of orbital services (and at high frequency) - these are key as these are the ones that really aren't served by public transport in any of our cities - they are the ones that can deliver results through changing with Spine services

If the "Choices" report is just a statement towards that, then fine, but if it is another high level online survey, then frankly I view it as pointless, as it would be nothing more than a box ticking exercise.

The design team will learn far more from the responses to the detailed plan that they produce about what people want, and it's important that at the same time that they make it clear that the plan can be changed to meet those needs.

LXFlyer · 01-07-2021 10:36am

And the Choices Report has been published.....

https://busconnects.ie/busconnects-cork/

Rulmeq · 03-07-2021 9:32am

Trains are very expensive to run

Wow.

snotboogie · 01-11-2021 11:59am

I thought the routes were supposed to be published in October?

hans aus dtschl · 01-11-2021 4:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118100980#Comment_118100980

I was thinking same. Another missed schedule deadline..

cgcsb · 01-11-2021 7:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118102595#Comment_118102595

Add it to the growing list

namloc1980 · 02-11-2021 10:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118100980#Comment_118100980

Being published today according to the Examiner.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40734546.html

This part in the article is a bit of a concern though:

The infrastructure element of BusConnects Cork, the delivery of more than 100km of bus lanes, is being addressed through a separate process.

CatInABox · 02-11-2021 10:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118105574#Comment_118105574

Same as the Dublin one really, the network rejig is separate to the infrastructure works. If you think about it, tying the two together would just delay the network rollout unnecessarily. There'll probably be infrastructure that comes with the network as well, like the bus interchange at Liffey Valley that they've started work on.

sheff_ · 02-11-2021 12:44pm

Details including route maps are up on the bus connects website now

hans aus dtschl · 02-11-2021 12:46pm

Yep I was just going to say the same: what's on the site now is definitely new:

https://busconnects.ie/busconnects-cork/

markodaly · 02-11-2021 1:13pm

The infrastructure side of things will be a real challenge. I hope they succeed.

namloc1980 · 02-11-2021 1:21pm

BusConnects network redesign now live.

https://busconnects.ie/busconnects-cork/

namloc1980 · 02-11-2021 2:23pm

No bus service proposed on South Terrace, George's Quay, Grand Parade or South Mall. Those are busy bus corridors at the moment but will not have any buses under BusConnects.

hans aus dtschl · 02-11-2021 2:29pm

No obvious sign of any new P&R, but maybe that will be in a later stage.

namloc1980 · 02-11-2021 2:37pm

Direct link from Kent to UCC and MTU seems to be gone (currently the #5). The new 2A from MTU bypasses both the train station and the bus station. Strange one.

cgcsb · 02-11-2021 2:58pm

Fares: 90 minute fare including rail and luas.

First official document I've seen referring to corks proposed light rail as 'luas' at least that's settled. Still no branding hints for the 'CART'

snotboogie · 02-11-2021 3:37pm

Unless I'm reading this wrong it looks like a massive scale down from what was proposed in CMATs and initial drafts. No orbital routes at all and for Douglas, where I live there, seems to be significant reductions of frequency on the 206 and 220 with the only new route being a second bus taking a different route to Carrigaline :/ Hugely underwhelming from what I can see

namloc1980 · 02-11-2021 3:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118107419#Comment_118107419

The only orbital that comes close to what was in CMATS is the new 14 from Little Island to CUH via the tunnel and Douglas. On the corridor from Douglas to the city there is a 10 minute frequency for midday on a weekday and likely higher at rush hour. Frequency looks ok to me there.

snotboogie · 02-11-2021 4:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118107529#Comment_118107529

Regarding the two main spines out of Douglas to the city, the South Douglas Road and the Douglas Road, CMATs had 6 routes on the South Douglas Road and 4 on the Douglas Road, this plan has one route on each. CMATs would have resulted in a bus about every 2 minutes on each road. This plan will have one every 20 minutes on the South Douglas Road (down from every 15 minutes currently) and one every 10 minutes on the Douglas Road (up from every 15 minutes currently) leaving essentially the same frequency as is in place now. Its an extraordinary downgrade from what was planned.

namloc1980 · 02-11-2021 4:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118107635#Comment_118107635

CMATS wasn't really a plan but just an indicative although take the point BusConnects appears to fall well short of it. Having looked again the Douglas Road will actually have a much higher frequency than 10 per min and has more than 1 route on it. It'll have the:

3 from Carrigaline @ 10 minute frequency
8 from Grange @ 15 minute frequency
12 from Carrigaline via Passage @ 30 minute frequency

That should translate to a c.5 minute frequency. The South Douglas Road is definitely a bit lacking at 20 minute frequencies.

KrisW1001 · 02-11-2021 5:20pm

It seems crazy that not one bus will serve South Mall or Grand Parade, given the investment in making those streets amenable to public transport.

Also, not keen to see that the bus network hub has been moved out to City Hall - dumping pedestrians who want to go into the city centre right on the most pedestrian-hostile set of roads in Cork.

snotboogie · 02-11-2021 6:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118107732#Comment_118107732

Ya but you also currently have the 207 every 30 mins, the 216 every 30 minutes, the 220 every 15 minutes and the 223 every hour. It's going from 9 buses an hour to 12 buses an hour on the Douglas Road and from 4 buses an hour to 3 buses an hour on the South Douglas Road. An overall upgrade in frequency of 2 buses per hour covering the entiretity of Douglas, Passage, Rochestown and Carrigaline.

It is remarkably unambitious for the population and lack of other options in the regions. Its really a minor adjustment rather than any sort of overhaul. Arguably the 220 going from every 30 minutes to every 15 minutes was bigger than this plan.

KrisW1001 · 02-11-2021 6:38pm

I think you’re comparing peak-time now with off-peak under the new plan. The times quoted in the brochure and other materials are for daytime during weekdays - between the morning and evening peak periods

namloc1980 · 02-11-2021 6:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118107936#Comment_118107936

Yeah it's a bit wild. A lot of the cross city buses are all being funnelled down Patrick St in this redesign. Panaban will need to be enforced full time otherwise it will be chaos down there.

namloc1980 · 02-11-2021 6:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118108167#Comment_118108167

The frequency quoted in the documents is at 12 midday on a weekday so you would assume it would be higher again at morning and evening rush hour.

LXFlyer · 02-11-2021 9:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118108389#Comment_118108389

To be fair to snotboogie, they are quoting current off-peak frequencies and comparing them with the same frequencies in the new plan.

The full frequencies over the entire day are in the full report (https://busconnects.ie/media/2292/report-on-the-draft-new-network-print-quality.pdf) at page 47-49 and existing frequencies at pages 50-52.

Comparing morning peak frequency between 07:00 and 09:00:

206 - 8 buses

207 - 5 buses

216 - 4 buses

220 - 8 buses

220X - 4 buses

223 - 4 buses

The new proposal will have departures between 07:00 and 09:00:

3 - 12 buses

7 - 6 buses

8 - 7 buses

12 - 8 buses

41x - 3 buses

42x - 2 buses

Also the new 6 will operate from Grange Road via Kinsale Road (buses having previously been an outbound 8) - 7 buses

Also the 14 orbital would be 4 departures versus 2 currently on the 219.

Remember also that most single deck vehicles (if not all) in the Cork city fleet are going to be replaced by double decks, so frequency isn't the only capacity change happening.

cgcsb · 03-11-2021 8:21pm

It's funny the comments here are almost a carbon copy of the comments that were made on the first draft of the Dublin bus connects scheme, some areas left with a de facto reduction in service and generally underwhelming compared to the city strategy. With most people coming to concensus on the second draft and near universal support on third draft. I wonder is it deliberate, a way to get acceptance, albeit long drawn out.

Thw infrastructure proposals will make a bigger hit.

Cork - BusConnects

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