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Rushed Covid 19 vaccine

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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,704 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    I don't have any older relatives to spread it to tbh so that isn't a concern for me and as I've said already I'd be more worried about the side effects from taking the vaccine rather than getting covid itself.

    So you are not worried about the side affects of vaccines, just this particular one, correct? If yes, why exactly?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,464 ✭✭✭PCeeeee


    I don't have any older relatives to spread it to tbh

    Awash with kindness and compassion.

    Which you believe to be the greatest gift in life. Correct?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,357 ✭✭✭LessOutragePlz


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    So you are not worried about the side affects of vaccines, just this particular one, correct? If yes, why exactly?

    Yes this one in particular because it will be a rushed vaccine in comparison to previous ones.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,357 ✭✭✭LessOutragePlz


    PCeeeee wrote: »
    Awash with kindness and compassion.

    Which you believe to be the greatest gift in life. Correct?

    Yes indeed. Does taking not taking a vaccine automatically make you unkind and uncompassionate? If it does then that's news to me. One action or inaction shouldn't determine how you or society should view you for the rest of your life.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    These rushed vaccines are only currently being tested on 'thousands', but the delivery will be for 'billions', not millions.
    Also, it won't be a once in a lifetime thing, will very likely be multi-dose (inc experimental early types), and multi-duration (perhaps yearly) due to natural mutations.

    E.g. Australia (that hinted at manditory enforcement) has already bought something in the region of 80m early vaccines, it's population of course is no where near this.
    The Aussies in Melbo are already protesting today in the streets over simple issues such as face masks, so there is not a chance the desired 95% penetration will ever occur there. Berlin and London also had tens of thousands (but still less than the BLM folks) protesting out on streets, within the last month.

    Record keeping (digital identifiers of persons, and digital immunity certifications) of who has, or hasn't, taken a vaccine will be a default.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 734 ✭✭✭Dionaibh


    Yeah that may be true but I hope it's not as I'd rather keep my freedom of choice to not take the vaccine and protect myself from the potential side effects of the vaccine. If that means that I'm excluded from society then so be it but, I can't see how they'd be able to keep track of who got vaccinated and who didn't unless they implemented some large scale tracking of the population which I think a lot of people would be against but I'm not sure if enough people would be against it for it not to be implemented.

    I hope so too, but I imagine proof of vaccination will be required. Gates said a few months ago that some form of digital proof could be required. I imagine that's the road they'll go down. In Australia a few weeks ago Dr Nick Coatsworth said they'd look at "no jab no play" in terms of a Covid-19 vaccine. By that he meant that there would be restrictions imposed on unvaccinated people.

    I'm not sure either. In fact, I fear that most people would be in favour of tracking. The daily hysteria over positive tests of a virus with a 99.9% survival rate points to a populace that is terrified in every respect. So I can't imagine they'll suddenly be comfortable being around unvaccinated people.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,704 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Yes this one in particular because it will be a rushed vaccine in comparison to previous ones.

    So you believe that normal vaccine processes are as tight as they can possibly be, any faster and they automatically become more unsafe? therefore, according to you personally, this vaccine will be "unsafe"?

    I don't work as a medical researcher, or a medical professional - but I do know, for a fact, that under certain circumstances, processes can be sped up and streamlined, in some cases significantly so, with no increase of risk, or reduction of accuracy - typically though the cost increases.

    Given the current crisis, cost is not the key issue, time is. And I do trust people who are regulating/testing/researching/creating something that they, their families, friends, colleagues, populace will use, that indeed they will adhere to the same strict criteria of safety - they will just streamline the process where needed, e.g. run 3 shifts in a 24 hour basis instead of 1, and so on


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,704 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    These rushed vaccines are only currently being tested on 'thousands', but the delivery will be for 'billions', not millions.
    Also, it won't be a once in a lifetime thing, will very likely be multi-dose (inc experimental early types), and multi-duration (perhaps yearly) due to natural mutations.

    I trust medical professionals far more than I trust random people's opinions on the internet, especially those who believe in biblical prophecies


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 734 ✭✭✭Dionaibh


    These rushed vaccines are only currently being tested on 'thousands', but the delivery will be for 'billions', not millions.
    Also, it won't be a once in a lifetime thing, will very likely be multi-dose (inc experimental early types), and multi-duration (perhaps yearly) due to natural mutations.

    E.g. Australia (that hinted at manditory enforcement) has already bought something in the region of 80m early vaccines, it's population of course is no where near this.
    The Aussies in Melbo are already protesting today in the streets over simple issues such as face masks, so there is not a chance the desired 95% penetration will ever occur there. Berlin and London also had tens of thousands (but still less than the BLM folks) protesting out on streets, within the last month.

    Record keeping (digital identifiers of persons, and digital immunity certifications) of who has, or hasn't, taken a vaccine will be a default.

    That's why I'd take the Russian one if I had to take one. The Russian scientists think people will be protected for two years after taking the vaccine.

    I agree that it wouldn't be 95%, but I think most people in Australia would get a Covid vaccine. I read that they have very high vaccination rates in Australia.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,682 ✭✭✭firemansam4


    c.p.w.g.w wrote:
    Pro-Vaccine here...but the idea of the vaccine being rushed is already scary, you have one trial being suspended after someone had an adverse affect...

    I understand that there was a base of work already done, with MERs & SARs as that was a head start, but that should still mean the vaccine should take 2-3 years to develop and test...not 9-12 months


    But this is just showing that they are taking the same precautions as they normally would with other vaccines, the fact they have paused the vaccine until the incident is investigated gives me more confidence about the testing of it.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭ExMachina1000


    I'm also low risk. I won't be taking any rushed vaccine.

    Watch for laws being introduced which shield pharma companies from lawsuits if their vaccine has unforeseen side effects.
    That should set your alarm bells ringing


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,357 ✭✭✭LessOutragePlz


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    So you believe that normal vaccine processes are as tight as they can possibly be, any faster and they automatically become more unsafe? therefore, according to you personally, this vaccine will be "unsafe"?

    I don't work as a medical researcher, or a medical professional - but I do know, for a fact, that under certain circumstances, processes can be sped up and streamlined, in some cases significantly so, with no increase of risk, or reduction of accuracy - typically though the cost increases.

    Given the current crisis, cost is not the key issue, time is. And I do trust people who are regulating/testing/researching/creating something that they, their families, friends, colleagues, populace will use, that indeed they will adhere to the same strict criteria of safety - they will just streamline the process where needed, e.g. run 3 shifts in a 24 hour basis instead of 1, and so on

    Yes I believe there is more room for errors to occur due to the fact that vaccine producers are under pressure to produce a vaccine that will facilitate a return to some sense of normality to our normal everyday life.

    I'm not saying it's "unsafe" I never have, as I've stated previously I'd be more worried about the side effects from taking the vaccine rather than the effects of getting covid itself.

    I'm not a medical expert either nor do I claim to be, these are simply my opinions and my rational for not wanting to take a vaccine. Sure they can probably speed up the process but as I've previously said in doing so I believe their is more room for error.

    We've already seen that one person has suffered an adverse reaction that resulted in a severe and unexplained illness from taking the vaccine and the vaccines that are being produced are going to be administered to millions potentially billions of people so the risk of people developing side effects due to the vaccine is higher than other vaccines due to these vaccines being administered to more people than any other vaccine in history but I'm open to correction on that if it's incorrect.

    https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/covid-19-vaccine-trial-pauses-after-adverse-reaction-67917

    "Joe Walters, one of the participants in the University of Oxford trial in the UK, spoke this week to The Guardian about his experiences, sharing that he developed a persistent fever after receiving his initial injection (although it’s unknown whether he received the vaccine candidate or a control). He was briefly hospitalized and tested for COVID-19, and after his test came back negative, he learned that other participants had experienced similar side effects."


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    I trust medical professionals far more than I trust random people's opinions on the internet
    Would you trust an increased risk of narcolepsy, found following (the less rushed) vaccination (with GSK's Pandemrix), a monovalent 2009 H1N1 influenza vaccine, used in several European countries during the H1N1 influenza pandemic.

    This risk was initially found in Finland, and then other European countries also detected an association. The uk had one of the lowest rates in Europe, but it still affected (narcolepsy), one person in every 55k people.

    Many claims for damages are still ongoing, very difficult, expensive, and very few have been fully resolved to satisfaction of the victim due to denials and appeals of awards for damages. https://www.narcolepsy.org.uk/resources/pandemrix-narcolepsy


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭ExMachina1000


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    I trust medical professionals far more than I trust random people's opinions on the internet, especially those who believe in biblical prophecies

    Do you trust board members and shareholders of bio pharmaceutical companies?


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,223 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Any legitimate concerns are being tainted and overshadowed by the claims by people like Accumulator who believe in rather insane conspiracies that involve the supernatural and anti scientific.

    It's hard to take anyone seriously when in one breath they say that "there's concerns about the vaccine being rushed out" and in the next breath say "because Bill Gates is a secret satanist who is trying to make the mark of the beast."


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    Do you trust board members and shareholders of bio pharmaceutical companies?
    Indeed, and based on pure scientific facts and evidence (from CDC), and on the topic of 'big Pharma', it's now established that they are directly responsible for reducing (year on year) the life expectancy rates in the world's leading free, and richest economy.
    This is directly due to the (prescribed) opiod epedemic.

    2/3 overdose deaths are linked to prescribed opiods (not to mention directly related suicides). Their favourite brand to di$h out to patients even when not required is 'fentanyl', which itself is 50 to 100 times more potent than morphine.

    From the CDC:
    • From 1999 to 2018, over 750,000* people died from a drug overdose.
    • In 2018, almost 70,000 people died from drug overdoses.
    • It was a leading cause of injury-related death in the United States.
    • *Two out of three overdose deaths involved an opioid like prescription opioids, heroin, or synthetic opioids (like FDA approved: fentanyl).


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,357 ✭✭✭LessOutragePlz


    King Mob wrote: »
    Any legitimate concerns are being tainted and overshadowed by the claims by people like Accumulator who believe in rather insane conspiracies that involve the supernatural and anti scientific.

    It's hard to take anyone seriously when in one breath they say that "there's concerns about the vaccine being rushed out" and in the next breath say "because Bill Gates is a secret satanist who is trying to make the mark of the beast."

    I think this will be used as a way to dismiss the claims of everyone that has a potential issue or valid reason for not wanting to take a vaccine.

    They will dismiss all the viewpoints of people that don't want to take a vaccine and lump all us into the crazy anti-vaxxer group and there will be no room for a legitimate discussion in relation to why people will or won't want to take a vaccine.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 734 ✭✭✭Dionaibh


    King Mob wrote: »
    Any legitimate concerns are being tainted and overshadowed by the claims by people like Accumulator who believe in rather insane conspiracies that involve the supernatural and anti scientific.

    It's hard to take anyone seriously when in one breath they say that "there's concerns about the vaccine being rushed out" and in the next breath say "because Bill Gates is a secret satanist who is trying to make the mark of the beast."

    What's so outlandish about considering not being able to buy or sell, or do very much else, unless vaccinated to be the Mark of the Beast? Isn't that exactly the Mark of the Beast as described in the Bible? Is it because it is a biblical prophecy that you are against the possibility of its being true?


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,704 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe



    We've already seen that one person has suffered an adverse reaction that resulted in a severe and unexplained illness from taking the vaccine and the vaccines that are being produced are going to be administered to millions potentially billions of people

    And this happens with normal vaccine research. They have halted the process while they investigate, which shows normal vaccine research precautions are being followed. It could turn out that this one person's reactions are unrelated (there are up to 10's of thousands of participants enrolled)

    The fact that you've highlighted this as an issue, which is quite routine, shows that you already apparently have preconceived notions. The fact that you've stated you aren't going to take it further demonstrates that bias.

    With no medical knowledge, some people seem to be picking lines in the sand e.g. less than 3 years = Not OK, more than 3 years research = OK. As if they have some professional handle on the processes involved and how much they can be streamlined without impacting the safety.

    That's your opinion, fine, but I don't see any sound logic behind it any more than a vague lay-person's view of "its being fast-tracked so I don't trust it"


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 734 ✭✭✭Dionaibh


    I think this will be used as a way to dismiss the claims of everyone that has a potential issue or valid reason for not wanting to take a vaccine.

    They will dismiss all the viewpoints of people that don't want to take a vaccine and lump all us into the crazy anti-vaxxer group and there will be no room for a legitimate discussion in relation to why people will or won't want to take a vaccine.

    I agree. That's why I would suggest emigrating. The worst countries for Covid hysteria are Ireland, the UK, the US, and possibly Australia. What do Ireland and the UK in particular have in common? A public broadcaster that has been instrumental in the destruction of both countries. I would suggest Eastern Europe. Muzzles are despised in Russia, for example, and some bars have gone as far as to ban them. There was an interesting article in the New York Times a couple of months ago about how young Russians are trying to get on with life. They're going to bars and don't wear muzzles. Only problem would be the language barrier, but that could be overcome.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,704 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Dionaibh wrote: »
    What's so outlandish about considering not being able to buy or sell, or do very much else, unless vaccinated to be the Mark of the Beast? Isn't that exactly the Mark of the Beast as described in the Bible? Is it because it is a biblical prophecy that you are against the possibility of its being true?

    Do you believe the bible prophesizes the future?


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,223 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    I think this will be used as a way to dismiss the claims of everyone that has a potential issue or valid reason for not wanting to take a vaccine.

    They will dismiss all the viewpoints of people that don't want to take a vaccine and lump all us into the crazy anti-vaxxer group and there will be no room for a legitimate discussion in relation to why people will or won't want to take a vaccine.
    You say that, but then in the next post you have someone defending those "crazy" beliefs
    Dionaibh wrote: »
    What's so outlandish about considering not being able to buy or sell, or do very much else, unless vaccinated to be the Mark of the Beast? Isn't that exactly the Mark of the Beast as described in the Bible? Is it because it is a biblical prophecy that you are against the possibility of its being true?
    Yes. There's no such thing as a supernatural prophesy and anyone suggesting such is not being rational.

    Also this claim has been repeated many many times about different events in world history.
    This isn't the first time we've been told the mark of the beast/new world order/rapture was about to happen.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 734 ✭✭✭Dionaibh


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    Do you believe the bible prophesizes the future?

    Does it matter what I think? The poster seems to think that believing the possibility of not being able to buy or sell, among other things, unless vaccinated, which happens to be exactly what the verse in the Bible which refers to the Mark of the Beast says, to be the Mark of the Beast come to pass is ridiculous. I'm just wondering why it's ridiculous. It could be a coincidence, sure, but it'd be one hell of a coincidence, no?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 734 ✭✭✭Dionaibh


    King Mob wrote: »
    You say that, but then in the next post you have someone defending those "crazy" beliefs

    Yes. There's no such thing as a supernatural prophesy and anyone suggesting such is not being rational.

    Also this claim has been repeated many many times about different events in world history.
    This isn't the first time we've been told the mark of the beast/new world order/rapture was about to happen.

    But are you open to the possibility that this time could be different? I know you dismissed it, but the UN did organise a concert last month where a choir sang about a new world order behind closed doors, we have WEF wanting to reset the planet, and health passports are coming, and possibly a vaccine that, while not mandatory, could result in people not being able to buy or sell (basically take part in society) if they don't take it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭ExMachina1000


    Vaccine companies pushing for legal protection in the EU

    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/health-pharma/covid-19-vaccine-makers-lobby-eu-for-legal-protection-1.4339157

    "Vaccines Europe said in its memo it was advocating a “comprehensive no-fault and non-adversarial compensation system, and an exemption from civil liability”.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,357 ✭✭✭LessOutragePlz


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    And this happens with normal vaccine research. They have halted the process while they investigate, which shows normal vaccine research precautions are being followed. It could turn out that this one person's reactions are unrelated (there are up to 10's of thousands of participants enrolled)

    The fact that you've highlighted this as an issue, which is quite routine, shows that you already apparently have preconceived notions. The fact that you've stated you aren't going to take it further demonstrates that bias.

    With no medical knowledge, some people seem to be picking lines in the sand e.g. less than 3 years = Not OK, more than 3 years research = OK. As if they have some professional handle on the processes involved and how much they can be streamlined without impacting the safety.

    That's your opinion, fine, but I don't see any sound logic behind it any more than a vague lay-person's view of "its being fast-tracked so I don't trust it"

    I've highlighted it as an issue because it is showing that someone could have potentially already have suffered an adverse reaction to one of the vaccines in production.

    Obviously if the issue is resolved and the cause is proven to not be related to the vaccine then the trials can resume.

    You seem intent on painting me as anti-vaxxer as you've already said that I think their "unsafe" which wasn't true at all. I have no bias or preconceived notions I've already explained my reasons for not wanting to take a vaccine.

    In a perfect world the vaccines would be developed without anyone suffering side effects and the people that want to take would be free to do safe in the knowledge that their won't be any potential negative consequences to their health as a result of them taking the vaccine.

    It is fairly sound logic to say that anything that is rushed has a higher chance of failure due to it not being subject to the same scrutiny and rigorous testing as previous products that have been created and launched on the market and I believe that this danger is even greater for vaccines.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,704 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Vaccine companies pushing for legal protection in the EU

    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/health-pharma/covid-19-vaccine-makers-lobby-eu-for-legal-protection-1.4339157

    "Vaccines Europe said in its memo it was advocating a “comprehensive no-fault and non-adversarial compensation system, and an exemption from civil liability”.

    Reading the full article, we can see some of the context. If a vaccine is produced that is distributed to e.g 10s of millions of people, then people who fall ill unrelated to the vaccine could decide to take legal action against the vaccine producers.
    According to the Vaccines Europe memo, some people are likely to suffer “adverse events” after vaccination. “Even if such events may in fact not be related to the vaccines, such occurrences combined with the sheer scale of the vaccination programme and public attention to Covid-19, could lead to numerous damage claims.”


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,357 ✭✭✭LessOutragePlz


    King Mob wrote: »
    You say that, but then in the next post you have someone defending those "crazy" beliefs

    Yeah but that is the very point that I was making that person's view is not representative of everyone that does not want to take a vaccine and their reasons or rational for not wanting to take a vaccine will not be the same as everyone else's but, we will all be thrown into the same crazy anti-vaxxer group because it will be the easier option rather than discussing the legitimate reasons of why people do not want to a take a vaccine.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭ExMachina1000


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    Reading the full article, we can see some of the context. If a vaccine is produced that is distributed to e.g 10s of millions of people, then people who fall ill unrelated to the vaccine could decide to take legal action against the vaccine producers.

    An excuse to cover themselves overall if the vaccine causes serious side effects. Dreamt up by lawyers and board members.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    Dionaibh wrote: »
    Does it matter what I think? The poster seems to think that believing the possibility of not being able to buy or sell, among other things, unless vaccinated, which happens to be exactly what the verse in the Bible which refers to the Mark of the Beast says, to be the Mark of the Beast come to pass is ridiculous. I'm just wondering why it's ridiculous. It could be a coincidence, sure, but it'd be one hell of a coincidence, no?
    Indeed, would agree, all I've ever said is that it's exactly that: "an interesting coincidence". Also that there "may be something in it, and also...
    ....that there might not".

    Never have I said that Bill was a Satanist (this is a false claim from both KM & Joe), they (both athiests) appear to lump religion into every one of their posts, perhaps to avoid, and distract from looking at actual uncomfortable science based evidence.

    Also, Gate's patent for QDT (covid immunity certification) isn't in itself the MOTB, it's simple a digital 'identifer of the person' that is all, (by digitally scanning the point of vaccine) https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2019018301A1/en

    Now, anyone actually really interested in the (seperate) topic of MOTB, would look elsewhere e.g. Microsoft's other, seperate (i.e. non covid) patent: https://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/detail.jsf?docId=WO2020060606


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