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17-10-2019, 14:17   #61
Shefwedfan
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Originally Posted by Niallof9 View Post
I must have imagined those times he has taken the reigns (through unfortunate circumstance)

He is our defence coach. But in everything but name he is a selector, defence, transition most likely, head coach when Joe wasn't available and Ireland's de facto assistant coach. He's head coach in waiting and he also bears responsibility for this in our wins (which got him the role in the first place) and the losses.

I think he might point to the Lions tours which helped him get the job


He was offered a job to return to England a few seasons back, I would expect at that stage it was agreed he would stay with Ireland and take over long term from Joe.



A good move IMO by the IRFU. It's not like the World has an abundance of top quality coachs to take over the role.
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17-10-2019, 14:32   #62
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Look he's a fantastic coach and loved by the players. Its not his coaching ability in question for me.
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17-10-2019, 14:34   #63
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I find your posts pretty hard to follow tbh, but I'll try and reply.

You've named:
- 13 players you'd like to see tried over the next 24 months (some of which are in the squad, or have been tried in the past).
- Then another 4, saying you're sure you're forgetting more
- Then 7, who are our World Class players
- Then 6 who are potentially World Class
- Then 2 quality internationals.

Honestly finding it hard to know exactly what you want. Can you name a 23 you'd like to see starting in our 2nd game of then 6 Nations against Wales, say?
Yeah likewise so we have that in common. I am in work and don't have time to be editing and formatting etc or repeating stuff for people who can't or at least don't want to comprehend simple points/be pedantic over every small detail.

i'm not quoting holy scripture or Macbeth at the globe here i think its pretty clear what i've said. We have the talent, we have the players. Its all small stuff and i have admitted that critics like myself come across as foolish as they are minor enough details.

Summed up we have an abundance of talent. I am very hopeful for that reason. But we need to find a better way of utilizing it without harking back to the past. Called negative Niall on the other forum yet i'm being positive. Just can't win on boards. I remember the shrill calls that i was mad for suggesting Ringrose over Payne back in the day. One of the reasons i went back to lurking.

But if we go out on Saturday and it goes wrong, on top of the season we had and Japan we need to clear the decks, or at least change the rudder, for Andy to put his own stamp/mark on it.Yeah maybe thats the same 15, who knows. And shefwed is right, i probably am being way too harsh on him. Its not as a coach.

I mean people are arguing going with the same 15 on some of the forums. Utter madness. In saying that, yes there isn't massive changes to be made or time if the IRFU go the usual route. 15, 14, 10 (due to age), 8, 6, 2 are all up for grabs imo. Like tried can mean given a shot like Adelokun and Byrne were against some tier 2 team. I'm not saying pick a whole new 15!! Look at the way the All Blacks bring people in and who is left out. We would never in a million years leave out talents like Smith or even Savea.

I'm unsure how thats unclear? Pick one post in isolation fine...

Many of the players i have mentioned are capped, yes i am aware.

I have never blamed the players in any of this current setup. Its a fantastic team. For me only POM is not my cup of tea. But i get the love for him. Missing World class players in SOB, Leavy.

15) Larmour, 14) Conway, 13)GR 12) RH 11) Stockdale 10)JC/JS healthy mix 9)mix again for depth 8)Conan 7)Penny 6) Beirne 5)IH, 4)JR 3)Furlong 2)Kelleher 1)Healy - some fantasy picks i'm aware. But i'm fairly certain Penny, Kelleher, JC will be top internationals. Whats to lose? As i said the World Cup trumps 6 nations, november internationals so it looks like we screwed that up. I just cannot keep going on this circle of self defeating prophecy (the same calls made after every world cup - everything is fine) and delusion.

Surely Saturday will put an end to it either way - for the likes of reactionary critics like me or the people hunting down any critics, and looking forward every 4 years or just lauding local stuff. I hope its the latter that wins out and people remind me of my posts.

Last edited by Niallof9; 17-10-2019 at 15:03.
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17-10-2019, 14:48   #64
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Originally Posted by Niallof9 View Post
Yeah likewise so we have that in common. I am in work and don't have time to be editing and formatting etc or repeating stuff for people who can't comprehend or at least want to comprehend simple points/be pedantic over every small detail.

i'm not quoting holy scripture or Macbeth at the globe here i think its pretty clear what i've said. We have the talent, we have the players.

Summed up we have an abundance of talent. I am very hopeful for that reason. Called negative Niall on the other forum yet i'm being positive. Just can't win on boards.

But if we go out on Saturday and it goes wrong, on top of the season we had and Japan we need to clear the decks for Andy to put his own stamp on it. I mean people are arguing going with the same 15 on some of the forums. Utter madness imo.

I'm unsure how thats unclear?

I have never blamed the players in any of this current setup. Its a fantastic team. For me only POM is not my cup of tea. But i get the love for him. Missing World class players in SOB, Leavy.
I feel I've been pretty clear on my position, which remains:

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Imo, there's plenty of time within a 4 year cycle to make changes. It doesn't require wholesale changes from day one.
Imo, you've been unclear as you've just listed a whole raft of players. Again, can you name a 23 you'd like to see starting in our 2nd game of then 6 Nations against Wales? It might give us some indication on how you'd like to see these players introduced alongside the current squad. Or do you literally want a whole new 15?
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17-10-2019, 15:18   #65
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I feel I've been pretty clear on my position, which remains:



Imo, you've been unclear as you've just listed a whole raft of players. Again, can you name a 23 you'd like to see starting in our 2nd game of then 6 Nations against Wales? It might give us some indication on how you'd like to see these players introduced alongside the current squad. Or do you literally want a whole new 15?
What constitutes wholesale then?

Thats the 15 i've named - penny, kelleher won't happen i know, so cronin and VDF. Bench hard to say with injuries and form. Mainly i want it picked on form. So if Ruddock out plays POM either in a derby or just in general he should be starting and so forth. Easy enough concept...i know one of the old guard will be on sometime to argue form doesn't matter...but i respectfully disagree. Look who knows what clauses the central contracts have etc.

I don't rate Scannell he's a journeyman in my view, a solid pro.

I want to see 15, 14, backrow and 2 as live options. Hard to argue with the rest for a time.

But some of these lads will be banging down doors soon enough. They are james ryan levels of freakishness.

Makes sense we're in what the 3rd cycle of professional rugby? no more hype or bluster about golden generations or pros...we're at a normal professional level of sports. We have four pro teams with three of them boasting world class facilities, academies and coaching set ups.

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18-10-2019, 02:23   #66
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There's going to be a few additions next year. There's also going to be some subtractions.
Out
Best
Cronin, he's good but has no chance in 23.
Sexton age! He's certainly going to be gone by the next rwc.
Kearney. new blood needed.
Toner, even if healthy, his age works against him.
POM, he's so poor lately.

Possible inclusions
Marshall
Treadwell, if he continues his good form
Deegan, outstanding potential and can play 6


By The autumn series, I think we're going to have 5 or so new players in the team.
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18-10-2019, 03:48   #67
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Originally Posted by Niallof9 View Post
Look who knows what clauses the central contracts have etc.
If you’re suggesting they mean the player has to play there is no way that is there. The coach picks who he wants - the players he picks most get central contracts. It’s not the other way round. Results are too important to hamstring a coach in any way like that.

Also form just can’t be the only selector. It could potentially play a larger role but you get a lot of flavour of the month campaigns for players who just disappear - it is very possible the head coach of the international team realises this will happen.
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18-10-2019, 09:20   #68
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If you’re suggesting they mean the player has to play there is no way that is there. The coach picks who he wants - the players he picks most get central contracts. It’s not the other way round. Results are too important to hamstring a coach in any way like that.

Also form just can’t be the only selector. It could potentially play a larger role but you get a lot of flavour of the month campaigns for players who just disappear - it is very possible the head coach of the international team realises this will happen.
Even still, Schmidt did pick on form many times. Remember the Connacht lads on the South Africa tour. Turns out they had a ceiling and didn't last.

Niallof9, you keep saying "things need to change" when Schmidt gave chances to tons of youth and new players over the last four years. You even list them yourself. Penny and Deegan et al will get a look in over the next four years if they are good enough. Deegan for example definitely has promise but has yet to reach the heights for Leinster that his hype implied. There aren't a huge amount of Ireland games. I feel like you're moaning for the sake of moaning. Yeah it's annoying that Ireland lost to Japan. Nobody predicted that though. A team that easily beat Scotland (who almost beat England at home 6 months ago). It isn't that outrageous given how Japan are performing.
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19-10-2019, 15:12   #69
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Well....... here we are! A new coach and hopefully a new philosophy.
Day 1 of the post Schmidt era.
What kind of rugby will Farrell instill on the squad?
Obviously, some of the lads are not at the level required!
It was a dismal world cup. Murdered by NZ, well beaten by Japan and struggled against Russia.
The prep and game plan are not working and it's time for new ideas and new players!
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19-10-2019, 15:15   #70
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Even still, Schmidt did pick on form many times. Remember the Connacht lads on the South Africa tour. Turns out they had a ceiling and didn't last.

Niallof9, you keep saying "things need to change" when Schmidt gave chances to tons of youth and new players over the last four years. You even list them yourself. Penny and Deegan et al will get a look in over the next four years if they are good enough. Deegan for example definitely has promise but has yet to reach the heights for Leinster that his hype implied. There aren't a huge amount of Ireland games. I feel like you're moaning for the sake of moaning. Yeah it's annoying that Ireland lost to Japan. Nobody predicted that though. A team that easily beat Scotland (who almost beat England at home 6 months ago). It isn't that outrageous given how Japan are performing.
Dunno about a ceiling, I remember TOH finding the ground and that's about it. Consigned back to the ash heap.
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19-10-2019, 17:12   #71
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Even still, Schmidt did pick on form many times. Remember the Connacht lads on the South Africa tour. Turns out they had a ceiling and didn't last.

Niallof9, you keep saying "things need to change" when Schmidt gave chances to tons of youth and new players over the last four years. You even list them yourself. Penny and Deegan et al will get a look in over the next four years if they are good enough. Deegan for example definitely has promise but has yet to reach the heights for Leinster that his hype implied. There aren't a huge amount of Ireland games. I feel like you're moaning for the sake of moaning. Yeah it's annoying that Ireland lost to Japan. Nobody predicted that though. A team that easily beat Scotland (who almost beat England at home 6 months ago). It isn't that outrageous given how Japan are performing.

That’s why’s we wended up with Kearney earls and best for example. Look I give up there’s no point trying to convince u guys. I’ve tried for 4 years. I’ve been proven correct but it gives me no pleasure. Good luck with the no form angle.

I’m not moaning for the sake of it at all if u read my post history. Conway in the stands ...an absolute joke

I’m too angry and depressed to continue this never ending debate we will never agree. There’s the anti static one out runners and conservative people like me and then there’s the joe can do no wrong. It’s cool I accept it it’s over. In 24 months we will be looking ok under Lancaster with serious talent like Penny, deegan, jack o Sullivan, Doris, Baird, larmour, and many others

Losing to Japan was unforgivable

Last edited by Niallof9; 19-10-2019 at 17:33.
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19-10-2019, 17:38   #72
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I would expect that this squad from the RWC will stay together into the 6 Nations, after doing so much work together over the summer it would make sense to maximise their return up to that point.
The 2020 tour to Australia with a tier 2 country (Fiji perhaps) would be the next obvious opportunity to try out some new players. I would expect anyone that is not going to feature in the 2021 6 Nations would be let go for that tour and for the Autumn matches.
Rory Best will be gone after this RWC.
Rob Kearney, Sean Cronin, and Johnny Sexton should be left behind next Summer.
Keith Earls and Cian Healy are borderline, would probably leave Earls and take Healy.

So we'd be looking at 2 new hookers, a new 10, a new wing, and a new fullback.

We are most of the way there already really,
Hooker: Scannell, Herring and one other; possibly Rhys Marshall or Bryan Byrne.
10: Carbery, Carty and Byrne
Wing: Stockdale, Conway and one other; Dave Kearney or possibly Darren Sweetnam, Adam Byrne or Robert Baloucoune.
Fullback: Larmour and one other; Addison or possibly Haley.

I can't see Devin Toner or Sean O'Brien getting back into the squad anymore.
Perhaps Dan Leavy can make a miraculous recovery.

There could be a bit of change in the backups in a few positions, for example, Ultan Dillane, Quinn Roux, Gavin Thornbury, or Kieran Treadwell might feature as locks, Finlay Bealham, Marty Moore or Eric O'Sullivan as tight-head props, Jack McGrath or James Cronin as Loose-head props, or back-rows such as Max Deegan, Jack O'Donoghue, Matty Rea or Paul Boyle.
If your leaving out sexton and co you cant be bringing in dave kearney, dev and SOB - same vintage
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19-10-2019, 18:06   #73
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The future is not so bleak! There are some great prospects coming up!
I think Ruddock should get the 6 shirt. At least until one of Rea, Doris, SOB 2 are ready.
Levy was sorely missed. Hopefully he makes a great comeback
Deegan should be in the mix at 8, as well as Conan.
Marmion must be given his chance, Murray is just not very good right now!
Beirne is also worth a look at 6.
I imagine Treadwell and Thornbury will be close to the squad and possibly Dillane.
There's a lot of options, but relying on the same fellas, no matter how poor they are is nutz.
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19-10-2019, 18:54   #74
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Does our style of play change?
This is the only important question.
We saw in 2015 how our lack of creativity sunk us. We failed to recognise this (instead blaming it on injuries), and we saw the same problem today.

By creativity, I specifically mean the ability to create opportunities - making holes in defences by adding complexity that a team can't deal with and playing with enough tempo that they can't fill those holes in time.

This is different to either "moments of magic" from broken-field/turnover plays where opportunities are presented and hopefully you're able to make use of them, or pre-arranged strike-plays.

We should be aim to be good at these too, but the best teams are just too good to allow those moments to happen often enough. It's a recipe for constantly being 4/5th best in the World.

Coach: With the above in mind, Farrell is a bad choice. He's not the type of coach to develop our game. It's doubly bad because we'll be losing a top-quality defence coach.

Players: I think it's kind of the wrong question. We should develop our creativity and then pick the players that suit that. Naming names now is a fun guessing game, but pointless.

Losing: We absolutely have to be more willing to do this. Look at how good NZ are - I fully believe that losing to us (and others) over the last few years have been fundamental to how good they're playing. Truthfully, they were experimenting with either players or style when they lost to us. They don't want to lose, not for a second and you can see how much it cuts them up, but they're willing to risk it.
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19-10-2019, 21:06   #75
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Two things to focus on should be getting the 4 provincial teams to prioritise skills and decision making, both at speed.

We need players who can get do the simple stuff correctly quickly on automatic. Seems like Joe was doing that at Leinster and then national level but it needs to be the standard way to review how we play. People might say we'd lose power and we would but if eventually you can produce intelligent skillful players reliably as a baseline you can then select the big or fast lads as needs be and still be confident in their output.

That can apply in every sport and every team but it needs the focus to be on long term.
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