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17-10-2019, 11:34   #46
Niallof9
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Originally Posted by Shefwedfan View Post
I was waiting for the reference to podcast or press


Quick one, you do realize the press have it in for everything IRFU at the moment because they started up their own channel and media. It was discussed in-depth on a couple of the podcasts. You miss that one?

Ever since that decision the press have flicked....so making reference to the press saying a new appointment is wrong is probably not the best source

I have mentioned this a few times but seems your incapable of making up your own mind so will leave you to it.....


P.S. yes you are calling for him to be sacked.....before we have even finished the current World Cup, what is that about?
ah here will you ever piss off with this angle its ****ing tired. Its my own opinion. I've seen that yeah and it has nothing to do with it. In any case its a good thing as thornley was becoming a mouth piece for IRFU propaganda because of access issues and the team turning against criticism like happened with David Kelly in New Zealand in 2012 - spoiler..i have some skin in the game. The IRFu are doing a piss poor job with a two man media team. We have over saturation of media now as well. Look i'm only referencing them as people like yourself sort of twist the critics and paint us as the crazy outsiders or minority. In fact people like yourself, the superfan are the minority. Its sport...criticism is valid..deal with it.

i said he's under serious pressure....and he is if we don't win on Saturday. And the media that i love to reference will frame this exact narrative and usually it does actually increase the pressure. If we lose on Saturday, by 15 or more points, on top of Japan, six nations, thrashing by England...Andy Farrell as assistant coach and ever increasing responsibility, he has a huge part in it and will be under serious, serious pressure as he was in 2015. And he won't be able to go back to the well of chicago or 2018 as the last frame of reference will be the failure of 2019 World Cup. If he wins the World Cup he will get a justified 15 year contract.

The players as i have explained in detail get a pass from me.

One way Farrell can redeem himself if the above transpires is by expanding our playbook and looking at new options. If he wins a grand slam doing the same thing, fair enough but i think we'll be right back here in 2023. Maybe even Mike Catt will be announced as the heir.

Like i said i will gladly trade looking like a fool for a win on Saturday

Last edited by Niallof9; 17-10-2019 at 12:09.
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17-10-2019, 11:39   #47
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What if we lose by 13 on Saturday, and he just makes the following changes for the 6 Nations:
- Larmour and Scannell starting.
- Conway into the 23 jersey.
- Carbery starting against Scotland and Italy.
- Changes in the backrow, but only because of injury.

but retains the rest of the squad, and we win 4 out of 5 matches. Would you consider that a success?
yeah that's a fair point. Yeah if he does well playing the same way, same team again critics like me look foolish. But for me the World Cup trumps anything and he (farrell) has failed if it goes badly on Saturday imo. One way Farrell can redeem himself if the above transpires is by expanding our playbook and looking at new options. If he wins a grand slam doing the same thing, fair enough but i think we'll be right back here in 2023. Maybe even Mike Catt will be announced as the heir.

I just can never understand why Irish rugby can't be a little bold in selection, tactics etc. I want to see guys like Dillane, Byrne, Larmour, Conway, Scannells, Kelleher, Penny, Doris, O'Sullivan, Lowry, Balacounne, Larmour, Tyler, become tried over the coming 24 months, and then some tried and trusted and some even key Irish players. Some of those are fanciful i know. Gibson Park, Butler, Lowe, Deegan and a host of others i'm forgetting. I'm really excited about Irish rugby. And thats on top of World Class players like Henshaw, Healy (still a whipper snapper at 32) Ringrose, Ryan, Furlong, Stander, Murray, Sexton (with age caveat) and the potential World Class ability of Leavy, Joey, Stockdale, Larmour, Porter, Henderson (shouldn't be potential but it hasn't emerged consistently). Then you have the quality internationals of Josh VDF, Beirne. Earls, kearney have been great servants and World class on their day. POM is marmite for me, i know what he adds but i'm not a fan in ability terms, i think he's very lucky to be where he is. He's a great leader and rugby man and will continue to add value. Maybe Zebo comes back. Irish rugby is on an upwards curve. You can see it in the age profile of some of the players emerging. Penny with Leinster, O'Sullivan going over to join Munster. Serious James Ryan like talent.

For me it would be worth a wooden spoon.

I will despair if the 15 taking the field on Saturday is starting the six nations, no matter what happens on Saturday.

Last edited by Niallof9; 17-10-2019 at 12:11.
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17-10-2019, 12:34   #48
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ah here will you ever piss off with this angle its ****ing tired. Its my own opinion. I've seen that yeah and it has nothing to do with it. In any case its a good thing as thornley was becoming a mouth piece for IRFU propaganda because of access issues and the team turning against criticism like happened with David Kelly in New Zealand in 2012 - spoiler..i have some skin in the game. The IRFu are doing a piss poor job with a two man media team. We have over saturation of media now as well. Look i'm only referencing them as people like yourself sort of twist the critics and paint us as the crazy outsiders or minority. In fact people like yourself, the superfan are the minority. Its sport...criticism is valid..deal with it.

i said he's under serious pressure....and he is if we don't win on Saturday. And the media that i love to reference will frame this exact narrative and usually it does actually increase the pressure. If we lose on Saturday, by 15 or more points, on top of Japan, six nations, thrashing by England...Andy Farrell as assistant coach and ever increasing responsibility, he has a huge part in it and will be under serious, serious pressure as he was in 2015. And he won't be able to go back to the well of chicago or 2018 as the last frame of reference will be the failure of 2019 World Cup. If he wins the World Cup he will get a justified 15 year contract.

The players as i have explained in detail get a pass from me.

One way Farrell can redeem himself if the above transpires is by expanding our playbook and looking at new options. If he wins a grand slam doing the same thing, fair enough but i think we'll be right back here in 2023. Maybe even Mike Catt will be announced as the heir.

Like i said i will gladly trade looking like a fool for a win on Saturday

The result on Saturday should be irrelevant if it's all about the process up to this point.
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17-10-2019, 12:46   #49
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Kilcoyne 30
Scannell 27
Furlong 26
Ryan 23
Henderson 27
O Mahony 30
Van Der Fier 26/Leavy 25
Standar 29 Conan 27
Murray 30
Carbery 23
Stockdale 23
Aki 29 Farell 26
Ringrose 24
Conway 28 Lowe 27
Larmour 22

There's the starting line up 30 and under who definitely could be available for the next world cup. Other players will come in and emerge, some of these will lose form and get injured but we don't need wholesale changes to build for the next world cup. What we do need is a change in game plan.
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17-10-2019, 12:49   #50
Shefwedfan
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Originally Posted by Danthemanhere View Post
Kilcoyne 30
Scannell 27
Furlong 26
Ryan 23
Henderson 27
O Mahony 30
Van Der Fier 26/Leavy 25
Standar 29 Conan 27
Murray 30
Carbery 23
Stockdale 23
Aki 29 Farell 26
Ringrose 24
Conway 28 Lowe 27
Larmour 22

There's the starting line up 30 and under who definitely could be available for the next world cup. Other players will come in and emerge, some of these will lose form and get injured but we don't need wholesale changes to build for the next world cup. What we do need is a change in game plan.

POM, Stander, Aki and Murray I doubt will make it to next WC.....
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17-10-2019, 12:54   #51
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ah here will you ever piss off with this angle its ****ing tired. Its my own opinion. I've seen that yeah and it has nothing to do with it. In any case its a good thing as thornley was becoming a mouth piece for IRFU propaganda because of access issues and the team turning against criticism like happened with David Kelly in New Zealand in 2012 - spoiler..i have some skin in the game. The IRFu are doing a piss poor job with a two man media team. We have over saturation of media now as well. Look i'm only referencing them as people like yourself sort of twist the critics and paint us as the crazy outsiders or minority. In fact people like yourself, the superfan are the minority. Its sport...criticism is valid..deal with it.

i said he's under serious pressure....and he is if we don't win on Saturday. And the media that i love to reference will frame this exact narrative and usually it does actually increase the pressure. If we lose on Saturday, by 15 or more points, on top of Japan, six nations, thrashing by England...Andy Farrell as assistant coach and ever increasing responsibility, he has a huge part in it and will be under serious, serious pressure as he was in 2015. And he won't be able to go back to the well of chicago or 2018 as the last frame of reference will be the failure of 2019 World Cup. If he wins the World Cup he will get a justified 15 year contract.

The players as i have explained in detail get a pass from me.

One way Farrell can redeem himself if the above transpires is by expanding our playbook and looking at new options. If he wins a grand slam doing the same thing, fair enough but i think we'll be right back here in 2023. Maybe even Mike Catt will be announced as the heir.

Like i said i will gladly trade looking like a fool for a win on Saturday

Farrell is defense coach. He just looks after the defense. A part of the game which has worked well with only 2 tries against this WC
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17-10-2019, 13:09   #52
Niallof9
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There's the starting line up 30 and under who definitely could be available for the next world cup. Other players will come in and emerge, some of these will lose form and get injured but we don't need wholesale changes to build for the next world cup. What we do need is a change in game plan.

I reckon there will be loads of more contenders. I'd say in 2015 some of the predictions were way off as well wither through form, not emerging, the undroppables, retirement, leaving or just not good enough. Zebo, Matt Healy, Tyler, McGrath (thought he was a mainstay) ,Ruddock (1st choice by now), Toner (undroppable), Payne, Marshall, the two lads who shall not be named, McCloskey, and a dozen others have come and gone and may come again

2015/2019 vs coming years (under pressure, stalwarts, world class)

Kilcoyne 30 - probably over estimated in 2015 - will be under serious pressure but i like him alot
Scannell 27 - unknown potential - not good enough, Kelleher will overtake him quickly enough i reckon
Furlong 26 - sub in 2015 high hopes - wc
Ryan 23 - whispers - wc, captain
Henderson 27 - known - should be wc
O Mahony 30 - won't be in the conversation by 2023
Van Der Fier 26 - unspoken of - stalwart
Leavy 25 - strong talk, undroppable if injury free, wc
Standar 29 Conan 27 - some talk, stalwarts but under pressure. Serious talent emerging
Murray 30 - wc, still wc but coming to the end by 2023
Carbery 23 - not a whiff - wc by 2023
Stockdale 23 - unknown and now near wc
Aki 29 Farell 26 - spoken of, stalwarts
Ringrose 24 - whispers, people saying Payne was the automatic choice, now wc and future leader
Conway 28 - people thought he was done, Lowe 27 - unknown but both options and potential wc
Larmour 22 - unknown - wc by 2023

So many changes are possible. injuries, retirement, players emerging.

I predict big things for Casey, O'Sullivan, Deegan, Doris, Penny, Wycherley,alex kendellen and have hopes for Milne, Baird, French, Healy, Turner, Hawkshaw but these lads could go the way of Harrison Brewer or do a tadgh Beirne or Conway and take their time. Thats not even including the forgotten lads like Adam Byrne, Dillane, SOB II and such.

Loads of others. Every year we creep away from the bad old days, the hype of the golden generation and the success of mere triple crowns.

Last edited by Niallof9; 17-10-2019 at 13:35.
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17-10-2019, 13:17   #53
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Farrell is defense coach. He just looks after the defense. A part of the game which has worked well with only 2 tries against this WC
I must have imagined those times he has taken the reigns (through unfortunate circumstance)

He is our defence coach. But in everything but name he is a selector, defence, transition most likely, head coach when Joe wasn't available and Ireland's de facto assistant coach. He's head coach in waiting and he also bears responsibility for this in our wins (which got him the role in the first place) and the losses.

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17-10-2019, 13:19   #54
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The result on Saturday should be irrelevant if it's all about the process up to this point.
The process in losing to Japan which would have given us an easier path? OF which the outcome resulted in us facing the World Champions? The one we all know that they and we didn't want.

Nothing about any of this is irrelevant. Win or lose there will be changes in the coming 18 months. Guaranteed.

Last edited by Niallof9; 17-10-2019 at 13:23.
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17-10-2019, 13:21   #55
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I reckon there will be loads of more contenders. I'd say in 2015 some of the predictions were way off as well wither through form, not emerging, the undroppables, retirement, leaving or just not good enough.Zebo, Healy, Tyler, Ruddock, Toner, Payne, Marshall, the two lads who shall not be named, McCloskey, and a dozen others have come and gone and may come again

2015/2019 vs 2023 (under pressure, stalwarts, world class)

Kilcoyne 30 - probably over estimated in 2015 - will be under serious pressure but i like him alot
Scannell 27 - unknown potential - not good enough, Kelleher will overtake him quickly enough i reckon
Furlong 26 - sub in 2015 high hopes - wc
Ryan 23 - whispers - wc, captain
Henderson 27 - known - should be wc
O Mahony 30 - won't be in the conversation
Van Der Fier 26 - unspoken of - stalwart
Leavy 25 - strong talk, undroppable if injury free, wc
Standar 29 Conan 27 - some talk, stalwarts but under pressure. Serious talent emerging
Murray 30 - wc, still wc but coming to the end by 2023
Carbery 23 - not a whiff - wc by 2023
Stockdale 23 - unknown and now near wc
Aki 29 Farell 26 - spoken of, stalwarts
Ringrose 24 - whispers, people saying Payne was the automatic choice, now wc and future leader
Conway 28 - people thought he was done, Lowe 27 - unknown but both options and potential wc
Larmour 22 - unknown - wc

So many changes are possible. injuries, retirement, players emerging.
Oh yeah, that's not my prediction for 2023, I think there'll be plenty of new players emerging who'll burst on the sceen by then.
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17-10-2019, 13:27   #56
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Oh yeah, that's not my prediction for 2023, I think there'll be plenty of new players emerging who'll burst on the sceen by then.
yeah sorry just re read it. exciting all the same
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17-10-2019, 13:33   #57
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POM, Stander, Aki and Murray I doubt will make it to next WC.....
Some wouldn't have had him on the plane for this WC.
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17-10-2019, 13:52   #58
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yeah that's a fair point. Yeah if he does well playing the same way, same team again critics like me look foolish. But for me the World Cup trumps anything and he (farrell) has failed if it goes badly on Saturday imo. One way Farrell can redeem himself if the above transpires is by expanding our playbook and looking at new options. If he wins a grand slam doing the same thing, fair enough but i think we'll be right back here in 2023. Maybe even Mike Catt will be announced as the heir.

I just can never understand why Irish rugby can't be a little bold in selection, tactics etc. I want to see guys like Dillane, Byrne, Larmour, Conway, Scannells, Kelleher, Penny, Doris, O'Sullivan, Lowry, Balacounne, Larmour, Tyler, become tried over the coming 24 months, and then some tried and trusted and some even key Irish players. Some of those are fanciful i know. Gibson Park, Butler, Lowe, Deegan and a host of others i'm forgetting. I'm really excited about Irish rugby. And thats on top of World Class players like Henshaw, Healy (still a whipper snapper at 32) Ringrose, Ryan, Furlong, Stander, Murray, Sexton (with age caveat) and the potential World Class ability of Leavy, Joey, Stockdale, Larmour, Porter, Henderson (shouldn't be potential but it hasn't emerged consistently). Then you have the quality internationals of Josh VDF, Beirne. Earls, kearney have been great servants and World class on their day. POM is marmite for me, i know what he adds but i'm not a fan in ability terms, i think he's very lucky to be where he is. He's a great leader and rugby man and will continue to add value. Maybe Zebo comes back. Irish rugby is on an upwards curve. You can see it in the age profile of some of the players emerging. Penny with Leinster, O'Sullivan going over to join Munster. Serious James Ryan like talent.

For me it would be worth a wooden spoon.

I will despair if the 15 taking the field on Saturday is starting the six nations, no matter what happens on Saturday.
I find your posts pretty hard to follow tbh, but I'll try and reply.

You've named:
- 13 players you'd like to see tried over the next 24 months (some of which are in the squad, or have been tried in the past).
- Then another 4, saying you're sure you're forgetting more
- Then 7, who are our World Class players
- Then 6 who are potentially World Class
- Then 2 quality internationals.

Honestly finding it hard to know exactly what you want. Can you name a 23 you'd like to see starting in our 2nd game of then 6 Nations against Wales, say?
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17-10-2019, 14:11   #59
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Originally Posted by Niallof9 View Post
I reckon there will be loads of more contenders. I'd say in 2015 some of the predictions were way off as well wither through form, not emerging, the undroppables, retirement, leaving or just not good enough. Zebo, Matt Healy, Tyler, McGrath (thought he was a mainstay) ,Ruddock (1st choice by now), Toner (undroppable), Payne, Marshall, the two lads who shall not be named, McCloskey, and a dozen others have come and gone and may come again

2015/2019 vs coming years (under pressure, stalwarts, world class)

Kilcoyne 30 - probably over estimated in 2015 - will be under serious pressure but i like him alot
Scannell 27 - unknown potential - not good enough, Kelleher will overtake him quickly enough i reckon
Furlong 26 - sub in 2015 high hopes - wc
Ryan 23 - whispers - wc, captain
Henderson 27 - known - should be wc
O Mahony 30 - won't be in the conversation by 2023
Van Der Fier 26 - unspoken of - stalwart
Leavy 25 - strong talk, undroppable if injury free, wc
Standar 29 Conan 27 - some talk, stalwarts but under pressure. Serious talent emerging
Murray 30 - wc, still wc but coming to the end by 2023
Carbery 23 - not a whiff - wc by 2023
Stockdale 23 - unknown and now near wc
Aki 29 Farell 26 - spoken of, stalwarts
Ringrose 24 - whispers, people saying Payne was the automatic choice, now wc and future leader
Conway 28 - people thought he was done, Lowe 27 - unknown but both options and potential wc
Larmour 22 - unknown - wc by 2023

So many changes are possible. injuries, retirement, players emerging.

I predict big things for Casey, O'Sullivan, Deegan, Doris, Penny, Wycherley,alex kendellen and have hopes for Milne, Baird, French, Healy, Turner, Hawkshaw but these lads could go the way of Harrison Brewer or do a tadgh Beirne or Conway and take their time. Thats not even including the forgotten lads like Adam Byrne, Dillane, SOB II and such.

Loads of others. Every year we creep away from the bad old days, the hype of the golden generation and the success of mere triple crowns.
scannell is more than good enough and kelleher will not at all easily replace him.
I think Toure overestimating a fair few here and underestimating a lot as well.
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17-10-2019, 14:13   #60
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Some wouldn't have had him on the plane for this WC.

I might have mentioned in haste once about not bringing to WC but he was always going to travel and he should be at the WC.....


Based on his previous games v NZ he was always going to get picked and like Kearney a few seasons ago v NZ I hope he pulls one out of the bag


For the hardship he puts his body through I doubt he will be around in 4 years especially with the players coming up....back row is very hard on the body.....
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