Boards.ie uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Click here to find out more x
Post Reply  
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
18-06-2007, 17:49   #46
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 9
what happens w/o planning permission?

Hi everyone,
I'm in a situation where (being new to Ireland) I listened to some builders tell me that I didn't need planning permission to do a small bay window with a canopy. We built it, and now find out that in fact we did need planning permission because we changed the facade of the house.

After much searching I've found some vague references to this kind of situation on the web, but nothing too concrete. I understand I can apply for retroactive permission, but that its expensive. I also gather that if permission is refused, they will force me to remove the extension. Needless to say, I'd like to avoid either situation.

Lots of people say that chances are good we won't have any problems until we try to sell the house. We aren't planning to sell anytime soon, but nevertheless it would help me to know what to expect.

So my questions are:

1) is it better to apply for retroactive permission or just quietly ignore the problem? (I understand this forum doesn't advocate building w/o permission, but I just want to understand how deep the sh** I'm in really runs)
2) If I don't get the permisson, what problems will arise when we try to sell the house? Some say there are paperwork issues... some say money issues... I'm not really sure what to think.
3) what kinds of other problems can I expect?


Thanks for any advice or input!
brettman is offline  
Advertisement
18-06-2007, 19:12   #47
muffler
Moderator
 
muffler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 36,324
My advice would be to make an application for retention permission. I dont think you should have much problem with it. The planning fee for retention of a bay window will be the min. fee of €102. The plans will probably cost you a bit more than that so shop around for a few prices.

The bay window in its present unauthorised form will become an issue if you ever wish to sell or even re-mortgage in the future or indeed even sign over ownership to a family member.

You are right that we frown upon any mention of breaking planning laws on this forum but one small point you should know is that if the local Council dont contact you about the window within a 5 year period (I am open to correction on the time frame here) then there is a statutory bar on the Council which prevents them from taking legal action on the matter. The only problem with all of this is while the Council may not be able to prosecute you or make you take it down you still dont have planning permission for it and it is still an issue if you go to sell in a number of years from now.

Apply for retention.

Last edited by muffler; 18-06-2007 at 19:15.
muffler is offline  
22-06-2007, 09:54   #48
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 226
Looking for all the help I can get people as I haven't a clue where to begin.

Basically my wifes father is a farmer, he is going to give us & his other daughter adjoining sites in one of his fields.
He (and I) don't know what actions/procedures are needed to hand over these plots. I would imagine solicitors are involved but would appreciate some advice before I contact them.

Then, once the plot is officially ours I'm thinking of going down Amanda's route, ie a formal meeting with the authorities so we will have a better knowledge of what we need to adhere to when lodging our application.

Any help would be appreciated as I would like to start this process asap. Our baby is 16 months and I'd like to be in a position to enrol her in country school once shes at that age.


Will be on here constantly picking ur brains

Hope all is going well with your application Amanda
dfcelt is offline  
Thanks from:
22-06-2007, 10:14   #49
smashey
Administrator
 
smashey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 20,528
Admin: GAA Mods, GAA, ZTest
You can make a planning application without owning the land. A letter of consent from the land owner will have to be submitted with the application. Your architect will be able to mark out the site and give you what you need for the soilcitor for land transfer.
smashey is offline  
22-06-2007, 10:46   #50
muffler
Moderator
 
muffler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 36,324
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfcelt
Basically my wifes father is a farmer, he is going to give us & his other daughter adjoining sites in one of his fields.
He (and I) don't know what actions/procedures are needed to hand over these plots. I would imagine solicitors are involved but would appreciate some advice before I contact them.

Then, once the plot is officially ours I'm thinking of going down Amanda's route, ie a formal meeting with the authorities
Get your planning permission (hopefully) first and then transfer the site into your names. As smashey said all you will need from your wifes father is a letter giving his consent for you to make a planning application for a site on his land.

If you transfer the site now and got refused planning then you are out quite a bit of money to own a piece of land that you cant use.
muffler is offline  
Advertisement
22-06-2007, 13:02   #51
dolanbaker
Moderator
 
dolanbaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 22,328
Quote:
Originally Posted by muffler
Get your planning permission (hopefully) first and then transfer the site into your names. As smashey said all you will need from your wifes father is a letter giving his consent for you to make a planning application for a site on his land.

If you transfer the site now and got refused planning then you are out quite a bit of money to own a piece of land that you cant use.
Yes, That's the way we did it, the cost of outline permission is much cheaper than the cost of land transfer.

Be wary of ribbon development as well, i.e. more than five houses in a 250m length of road, most coco's will refuse anything that creates a ribbon of houses.
dolanbaker is online now  
22-06-2007, 13:02   #52
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 226
Cheers lads, will plough on with planning so & enclose consent letter from her father.

"If you transfer the site now and got refused planning then you are out quite a bit of money to own a piece of land that you cant use."

Site will not cost a cent, well, maybe a token amount Obviously solicitors fees will have to be paid, but considering current land prices.....
Sites are off a lane, not a main road, only 3 other dwellings on lane about 2 miles long so would be surprised if we were refused. (Although having heard some stories, )

We (as in both sisters) are thinking of building at the same time so as to save some money when finalising deals for site clearance, groundworks, timber frame company, blockwork etc. The only problem I foresee is this: Me & the wife currently own a 3 bed semi in town, we are running out of space with one child & have another due in August. As such our design is looking like min. 4 bed, 2 storey, quite large as regards sq. ft. The sister is currently single & with no debts/relationship wants to build now but is happy with a average sq. ft. 3-bed bungalow/dormer. If we apply together within a short period then I have a feeling that planners might have an issue with the difference in house types given that they will be quite close to one another.

What do ye reckon? Jump in ahead of the sister with a big monstrosity or try to keep both houses somewhat similar (which won't be easy).
dfcelt is offline  
22-06-2007, 15:47   #53
muffler
Moderator
 
muffler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 36,324
Theres always a better chance of down-sizing from whats there or whats approved to be there as opposed to looking for something much more beefier than the existing or proposed development. In your case you are probably better going in first with your sister in law to follow maybe 3 months later.

I know some people dont have much confidence in the planners and the planning process (and I cant blame them at times) but if I were to give you good advice I would suggest you make a pre planning inquiry first. This costs nothing to arrange. You write a letter in outlining what you propose to build and where and attach a map showing the location of the site (approx) and perhaps a sketch of the front of the house or even a photo-copy of something out of a book or magazine and a rough layout of the site. The planning office are legally obliged to give you an appointment with the local planner to discuss your proposals and this is supposed to happen within 1 month of you requesting the meeting. It may do no harm to get your local councillor to take the letter and submit it on your behalf - they can normally fast forward these issues.

if and when you do get an appointment you can also make mention of your sister in laws plans.
muffler is offline  
24-06-2007, 14:36   #54
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 100
Hi all.

Due to hear on the 2nd of July about our planning.

This is our third attempt since 2005. Keep getting pulled up on local need, even though it shouldn't have been an issue (we lived within reasonable distance from the sites we tried on).

First site was boyfriends uncle's land in a neighbouring village, where both of us have a parent from and have family living there. Boyfriend was mad to build where his grandfather had originated from but we got a refusal.

Second site was three miles away from boyfriend's home house and again refusal. One of the reasons, boyfriend is a tradesman and has to travel to different jobs and he got pulled up on commuting!!

We are both country people and had to buy in a housing estate in a neighbouring town and we are like fish out of water - feel very resentful that we forced to live somewhere that we don't want to be and we simply can't afford a house in our area.

So fingers crossed this time!

Last edited by edengarden; 24-06-2007 at 14:45.
edengarden is offline  
Advertisement
26-06-2007, 15:44   #55
owen247
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 8
terreced house extension that borders neighbour

Hi,

I live in a terraced 2 storey townhouse which has a return at the back, so the back is narrower than the front of the house. The house is attached to the two other properties at the front only, the wide part of the house. So, in effect at the back/side I have an open space which has 2 walls from my house and then one which is the neighbours outside wall.

Can I in effect fill in this open space with a one (or 2 if possible) story extension so as to widen the back of my house to the same as the front. Or would I have to still leave 1m or something, between the neighbours wall and a new extension?
I assume in this case planning will definitely be needed, but even with that is there other issues?

Thanks in advance
owen247 is offline  
26-06-2007, 17:00   #56
muffler
Moderator
 
muffler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 36,324
Quote:
Originally Posted by owen247
Hi,

I live in a terraced 2 storey townhouse which has a return at the back, so the back is narrower than the front of the house. The house is attached to the two other properties at the front only, the wide part of the house. So, in effect at the back/side I have an open space which has 2 walls from my house and then one which is the neighbours outside wall.

Can I in effect fill in this open space with a one (or 2 if possible) story extension so as to widen the back of my house to the same as the front. Or would I have to still leave 1m or something, between the neighbours wall and a new extension?
I assume in this case planning will definitely be needed, but even with that is there other issues?

Thanks in advance
You may or may not need planning permission. Have a look at this document and it will put you on the right road.

From a practical point of view you need to watch out for underground service pipes, not block light off the neighbour etc
muffler is offline  
26-06-2007, 17:05   #57
muffler
Moderator
 
muffler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 36,324
Quote:
Originally Posted by edengarden
Hi all.

Due to hear on the 2nd of July about our planning.

This is our third attempt since 2005. Keep getting pulled up on local need, even though it shouldn't have been an issue (we lived within reasonable distance from the sites we tried on).

First site was boyfriends uncle's land in a neighbouring village, where both of us have a parent from and have family living there. Boyfriend was mad to build where his grandfather had originated from but we got a refusal.

Second site was three miles away from boyfriend's home house and again refusal. One of the reasons, boyfriend is a tradesman and has to travel to different jobs and he got pulled up on commuting!!

We are both country people and had to buy in a housing estate in a neighbouring town and we are like fish out of water - feel very resentful that we forced to live somewhere that we don't want to be and we simply can't afford a house in our area.

So fingers crossed this time!
One thing a lot of people are not aware of is the fact that it is the county councillors who have the final say on these matters when they are proposed to be included in a development plan.

What happens is that the planners will come up with a set of proposals and they will sit down and debate these with the councilors and they usually come to some form of compromise prior to the plan being adopted. But its the adoption of the plan that is critical as the councilors actually take a vote on it. They can either accept, reject or seek amendments to the plan.

So if you are having problems with a "local needs" issue go to the person who put their hand in the air and voted for it at a council meeting. The more people who approach and provide feedback to the councillors the more likely it will be that they will be more careful of what they adopt in the future.

You can also ask your councillor to submit a section 140 motion which, if passed, effectively orders the county manager to grant planning permission.

Last edited by muffler; 26-06-2007 at 17:09.
muffler is offline  
26-06-2007, 17:17   #58
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 100
Yeah read up on that section 140.
The last two times we had a councillor "working" on our behalf - but didn't make a bit of difference. They kept telling us "ah sur there should be no problems".

This time we used two councillors each from a different party and a deputy of the Labour Party has made an offical representation on our behalf- so it will be interesting to see if it makes any difference.

Like so many people in the country we are feeling very annoyed we see friends of ours with the same problem, if any fo them live inside the 30mile zone of our rural village they are being told that they can't build in rural areas and it might only be a mile or two from where they are living!

And there are the few cases where people from miles away are getting planning in our area or the local developer who keeps getting planning for one off houses, just doesn't make sense - there just is no consistancy!
edengarden is offline  
26-06-2007, 17:39   #59
muffler
Moderator
 
muffler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 36,324
Quote:
Originally Posted by edengarden
there just is no consistancy!
I have been preaching that for more years than I care to remember.

The biggest problem facing planning in rural Ireland is not the number of houses dotted along the countryside but the political interference in the planning process and the lengths that certain planners will go to in order to facilitate a politician. Good luck to the people who get planning in this regard but its not acceptable that others who for a variety of reasons would prefer not to go to a politician end up getting refused.

Anyhow, there is a wee bit of light at the end of the tunnel. Apparently about 70 - 80% of the county development plans throughout the country are in breach of EC law in relation to denying a local person the right to build a house in their locality. This has been widely known for some time but its only in the last few weeks that the issue has been brought to a head. Im open to correction on this but I believe that the government has recently been officially notified of this by the European Parliament and steps wil now have to be taken to regularise the matter.

I dont know what other councils are proposing but here in Donegal the development plan is up for review in July and changes will be made to it as Donegal is listed as one of the county councils that operate this prohibitive policy.

You might be in luck this time round.
muffler is offline  
27-06-2007, 22:40   #60
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 74
What is the maximum sized extension to build without planning authority?

Does it matter if the building is in a rural or urban area?

Thanks.
plasto is offline  
Post Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Remove Text Formatting
Bold
Italic
Underline

Insert Image
Wrap [QUOTE] tags around selected text
 
Decrease Size
Increase Size
Please sign up or log in to join the discussion

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



Share Tweet