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19-11-2019, 22:19   #2386
aloooof
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Says who? Again, as I pointed out earlier, you have no idea whether Munster have got any worse at developing players, or whether they (and the others) have just been unable to keep up with the advances made by Leinster due to a lack of money and resources.

The best Ulster team in over a decade was built on the back of key NIQs. I'd go back to those days in a heartbeat. Your example is poor.
Also, take Andrew Conway for example, who falls outside Shef’s criteria. Would he be the player he is today if he had stayed at Leinster and gotten far less game time? I don’t think so. Instead, he moved to Munster at 22, 6 years ago, with a better chance of first team appearances. Munster are due some credit for his development also.

Munster need to do more, but I think overlooking examples like Conway doesn’t tell the full story either.
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19-11-2019, 22:19   #2387
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Originally Posted by Shefwedfan View Post
As usual, all these discussion end up in "Bad bad Leinster"



then we get the



"poor poor XYZ province"



We should disregards the facts some of these provinces have hired poor management teams, brought in poor player from abroad and wasted millions and millions of the years.....but all of that is forgot because Leinster are bad......
What on earth are you on about?

Nobody is going on about bad bad Leinster. Are you struggling to comprehend this discussion, or are you being deliberately obtuse?
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19-11-2019, 22:20   #2388
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So today we have gone from just handing out Central Contracts to anyone to get them off the wage bill at a particular province to just buying in players with no thought or consideration to the Irish team

Didn't take too long after the WC to forget all about ireland and bringing more young Irish player through the system.....

Now the answer is, f**k the young Irish lad when we can get someone in from NZ or Aus.....
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19-11-2019, 22:26   #2389
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Originally Posted by Shefwedfan View Post
So today we have gone from just handing out Central Contracts to anyone to get them off the wage bill at a particular province to just buying in players with no thought or consideration to the Irish team

Didn't take too long after the WC to forget all about ireland and bringing more young Irish player through the system.....

Now the answer is, f**k the young Irish lad when we can get someone in from NZ or Aus.....
You're the same Shefwedfan who was whinging when Leinster players moved province? This whole "it's all about the Irish team" only really applies so long as Leinster get to keep their players and remain top dogs, right?

Give us a break.
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19-11-2019, 22:29   #2390
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Also, take Andrew Conway for example, who falls outside Shef’s criteria. Would he be the player he is today if he had stayed at Leinster and gotten far less game time? I don’t think so. Instead, he moved to Munster at 22, 6 years ago, with a better chance of first team appearances. Munster are due some credit for his development also.

Munster need to do more, but I think overlooking examples like Conway doesn’t tell the full story either.

Conway was playing first team rugby with Leinster, he was the starting winger and started in both finals that seasons.....


if anything he went from pushing to start for Ireland at the end of that season to hardly making squads for a number of years.



Would it have been the same if he stays? well nobody knows. At this stage he could be the nailed on winger for Ireland and Leinster. It's all guess work but you brought it up......up till his form since the start of this season he was a maybe in the World Cup squad
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19-11-2019, 22:34   #2391
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You're the same Shefwedfan who was whinging when Leinster players moved province? This whole "it's all about the Irish team" only really applies so long as Leinster get to keep their players and remain top dogs, right?

Give us a break.

No I wasn't "whinging".....


I still maintain the Carbery move was wrong because I think he is better at 15, also at that time Munster had plenty of alternatives and if anything he should have went to Ulster if he wanted to play 10. Munster ended up moving a home grown 10 out of the club to make space, up to Ulster, how does that make sense?



Nordi and McGrath I have never whinged and I was extremely happy to see Marty moore coming back to Ulster.



It's the Ireland thread, if you want to discuss signing more NIQ it's not really the place for that.
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19-11-2019, 22:36   #2392
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So you know the playing budgets of each province?
Do you know how much the IRFU give towards each province to pay salaries?
Do you know how much money each province generates which goes towards salaries?

If you do, please share.

Also, who have leinster "taken"?
The only players in the last 10 years I can think of are cronin and Henshaw?

Cronin had reached his ceiling at connacht, and unashamedly had ambitions beyond what they could offer, and with fogarty retiring there was a spot at leinster. And that was 8 years ago.

Henshaws reasons for leaving connacht are well documented at this stage.

Anyone else? Or is that the extent of leinsters 'poaching' ??
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It's also a very opaque system, with the lack of transparency in IRFU accounts and selection criteria for CCs not helping.
As I wrote, no, there is a lack of transparency that doesn't permit that level of scrutiny. If you have evidence to contradict the common perception that Leinsters playing budget a significantly ahead feel free to provide it. Welsh rugby journalist Simon Thomas has written about this and estimated playing budgets but I haven't time to Google his articles.
As to other players, Mike McCarthy is another one. Fionn Carr and Cian Kelleher are two more. All of those players severely weakened Connacht's squad, you couldn't argue Carr and Kelleher were actually needed at Leinster.
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19-11-2019, 22:42   #2393
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As I wrote, no, there is a lack of transparency that doesn't permit that level of scrutiny. If you have evidence to contradict the common perception that Leinsters playing budget a significantly ahead feel free to provide it. Welsh rugby journalist Simon Thomas has written about this and estimated playing budgets but I haven't time to Google his articles.
As to other players, Mike McCarthy is another one. Fionn Carr and Cian Kelleher are two more. All of those players severely weakened Connacht's squad, you couldn't argue Carr and Kelleher were actually needed at Leinster.

Cian Kelleher? really? a Leinster player who moved down and wanted to return? now that is called cherry picking?

So in total you have come up with 6 players is it?? thats over how many years??

How many have moved in the other direction?
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19-11-2019, 22:55   #2394
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Originally Posted by Zzippy View Post
As I wrote, no, there is a lack of transparency that doesn't permit that level of scrutiny. If you have evidence to contradict the common perception that Leinsters playing budget a significantly ahead feel free to provide it. Welsh rugby journalist Simon Thomas has written about this and estimated playing budgets but I haven't time to Google his articles.
As to other players, Mike McCarthy is another one. Fionn Carr and Cian Kelleher are two more. All of those players severely weakened Connacht's squad, you couldn't argue Carr and Kelleher were actually needed at Leinster.
To be fair Zzippy, Fionn Carr and Cian Kelleher were both Leinster developed players. Carr was actually needed at the time (played 37 times) and went back to Connacht after two seasons with Leinster. Kelleher I have no clue about, but he was (imo) a loss at the time.
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19-11-2019, 22:56   #2395
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As I wrote, no, there is a lack of transparency that doesn't permit that level of scrutiny. If you have evidence to contradict the common perception that Leinsters playing budget a significantly ahead feel free to provide it. .
We're not taking about Leinsters playing budget, we're taking about finances paid by IRFU to pay salaries. Wouldnt it make compete sense that due to leinster having more centrally contacted players, they would receive a lot less direct funding from Irfu to pay wages?

Its also pertinent to realise that without top Ireland performances AND provinces in Europe, the IRFU world be in serious trouble financially.
They turned a profit of 1.2m in 2018, and over 2m came in from provinces profits from europe.... So its arguable that teams like leinster actually pay for themselves.

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As to other players, Mike McCarthy is another one. Fionn Carr and Cian Kelleher are two more. All of those players severely weakened Connacht's squad, you couldn't argue Carr and Kelleher were actually needed at Leinster.
Seriously?

Mike Mccarthy that connacht released early in in his career??

And as far Carr.. As you say, never needed at leinster, so makes you wonder why they left connacht..... Was it because he was a kildare man maybe?

I hope cian kelleher comes good, but come on, surely that's not really part of your argument.
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19-11-2019, 23:19   #2396
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Conway was playing first team rugby with Leinster, he was the starting winger and started in both finals that seasons.....
Sorry Shef but I don’t think this is true.

Drico missed the Amlin final so McFadden was moved to centre, and Conway introduced.

Rob Kearney missed the Pro 12 final so Nacewa was moved to 15, and Conway introduced. (Conway was even named on the bench initially).

He started both finals, but that doesn’t mean he was the starting winger that season.
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19-11-2019, 23:28   #2397
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Sorry Shef but I don’t think this is true.

Drico missed the Amlin final so McFadden was moved to centre, and Conway introduced.

Rob Kearney missed the Pro 12 final so Nacewa was moved to 15, and Conway introduced. (Conway was even named on the bench initially).

He started both finals, but that doesn’t mean he was the starting winger that season.
If you say so......

PS the point was not the number of Munster players in the ireland WCsquad, it’s the number of Munster born, they included Cronin in that analysis as well....only 1, Scannell, is under 30

This is not me, as mentioned this was a topic on demented mole podcast

Last edited by Shefwedfan; 19-11-2019 at 23:32.
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20-11-2019, 00:28   #2398
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Munsters pipeline had been poor for the bones of a decade but if you look at the young talent coming through now a they seem to have fixed the pipeline hopefully we will see this talent develop. Having said that I would wager Leinster will still develop more players due to sheer numbers (plus I would wager there is more money in the Leinster schools system which won't hurt)
Either way at some point you have guys who won't get games in Leinster that should probably be moved to somewhere that they can get games if they want to.
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20-11-2019, 00:43   #2399
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No I wasn't "whinging".....

I still maintain the Carbery move was wrong because I think he is better at 15, also at that time Munster had plenty of alternatives and if anything he should have went to Ulster if he wanted to play 10. Munster ended up moving a home grown 10 out of the club to make space, up to Ulster, how does that make sense?
Munster moved Johnston out to make room for Ben Healy. It makes sense.

Carbery didn't want to go to Ulster. Schmidt confirmed this.
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20-11-2019, 00:55   #2400
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In fairness, he probably didn't want to go to Munster either, but there he went. And that's OK.
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