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how do emergency services find you

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Comments

  • #32
    coolmoose
    Registered Users Posts: 923 ✭✭✭coolmoose


    deaglan169 wrote: »
    as far as i know when you ring 999 they know what phone mast the call is being routed through so at least they can have a rough area if call drops

    nope, not as a matter of routine!


  • #33
    999nobody
    Registered Users Posts: 73 ✭✭999nobody


    deaglan169 wrote: »
    as far as i know when you ring 999 they know what phone mast the call is being routed through so at least they can have a rough area if call drops

    So we'll respond to the rough area of your house?


  • #34
    savagecabbages
    Registered Users Posts: 871 ✭✭✭savagecabbages


    999nobody wrote: »
    So we'll respond to the rough area of your house?

    I'd imagine having a rough idea of where someone is would be very useful for search and rescue type emergencies, or car accidents where passengers may not know where they are.


  • #35
    Hightower21
    Registered Users Posts: 81 ✭✭Hightower21


    savagecabbages wrote: »
    I'd imagine having a rough idea of where someone is would be very useful for search and rescue type emergencies, or car accidents where passengers may not know where they are.

    from Wikipedia:

    Range
    The working range of a cell site - the range within which mobile devices can connect to it reliably - is not a fixed figure. It will depend on a number of factors,

    In practice, cell sites are grouped in areas of high population density, with the most potential users. Cell phone traffic through a single cell mast is limited by the mast's capacity; there is a finite number of calls or data traffic that a mast can handle at once. This limitation is another factor affecting the spacing of cell mast sites. In suburban areas, masts are commonly spaced 1–2 miles (2–3 km) apart and in dense urban areas, masts may be as close as ¼-½ mile (400–800 m) apart. Cell masts always reserve part of their available bandwidth for emergency calls.
    The maximum range of a mast (where it is not limited by interference with other masts nearby) depends on the same circumstances. Some technologies, such as GSM, normally have a fixed maximum range of 35 kilometres (22 mi), which is imposed by technical limitations. CDMA and IDEN have no built-in limit, but the limiting factor is the ability of a low-powered personal cell phone to transmit back to the mast. As a rough guide, based on a tall mast and flat terrain, it is possible to get between 50 to 70 km (30–45 miles). When the terrain is hilly, the maximum distance can vary from as little as 5 kilometres (3.1 mi) to 8 kilometres (5.0 mi) due to encroachment of intermediate objects into the wide center fresnel zone of the signal.[3] Depending on terrain and other circumstances, a GSM Tower can replace between 2 and 50 miles (80 km) of cabling for fixed wireless networks.[4]


    So anywhere from 2 km to 50km!
    Hello Garda 1, This is Bravo... Head out to Tullamore for that call. Its in or around the midlands are.


  • #36
    coolmoose
    Registered Users Posts: 923 ✭✭✭coolmoose


    Even when we get the correct address anyway it can still be difficult. Hypothetical - 3am, someone calls for an ambulance - you would think that they would make themselves highly visible, after all they have just rang 999 for an ambulance!?

    No way! Lights out, curtains pulled, front door closed, no number on house, nobody standing outside, while two lads in a van search in vain for a house number on adjoining houses. Shur that's our job isn't it! Only to be greeted by "Ye took yer time"...ah the good ol' public!

    /sarcasm


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  • #37
    savagecabbages
    Registered Users Posts: 871 ✭✭✭savagecabbages


    Hightower21 wrote: »
    So anywhere from 2 km to 50km!
    Hello Garda 1, This is Bravo... Head out to Tullamore for that call. Its in or around the midlands are.

    I'll take the 2km when I've woken up in a crushed car on the side of a dark road. Also you'll have trouble finding one 50km cell tower in Ireland...

    Information like this would certainly be more helpful than less helpful in many situations


  • #38
    RiderOnTheStorm
    Registered Users Posts: 2,079 ✭✭✭RiderOnTheStorm


    For your home, as mentioned already, I imagine the best thing to do is:

    =have clear house number / name on door / pillar / gate etc.

    =have pre-prepared directions . this should not be new to folk, as you must have had to give them to friends / relatives over the years. My advice is give directions that are the clearest & easiest to follow, not necessarly the fastest route or the rat-run short cut you take to get home.

    =Loc8 code . If the ES use these, then go their site (http://www.myloc8ion.com) and find your house and register the Loc8 code. Then write it down and place it by the phone or door or wherever you will find it when under pressure!

    =wait outside with house lights on, and wave like you are attracting a taxi, not like you are trying to give the odds at a horse race.

    If you have to give directions to somewhere other than your home, eg you are in the middle of nowhere and come across a car crash / fire / accident / etc, then my advice (as a non-ES pro) would be name the town you last passed thru, and name the next town on the road. That will narrow it down quite a bit. If ES have to drive from A to B, they will surely find you. If you are off the road from A to B, then wait at the junction and tell them you will be there.


  • #39
    source
    Registered Users Posts: 5,266 ✭✭✭source


    savagecabbages wrote: »
    Hightower21 wrote: »
    So anywhere from 2 km to 50km!
    Hello Garda 1, This is Bravo... Head out to Tullamore for that call. Its in or around the midlands are.

    I'll take the 2km when I've woken up in a crushed car on the side of a dark road. Also you'll have trouble finding one 50km cell tower in Ireland...

    Information like this would certainly be more helpful than less helpful in many situations

    I dealt with a case where a woman had driven from the midlands to Limerick to kill herself, family found note and called Gardai, we rang the woman and got BT to run a trace on the number, got a grid reference based on the cell tower which put her in one part of the city.

    Dispatched a car and the woman was no place to be found. Through talking to the woman we figured out where she was, it was the other side of the city to the grid reference.

    Relying on the phone masts isn't a good idea, it was only through local knowledge that we found the woman before she could do anything.

    Edit: some details changed from original incident.


  • #40
    TylerIE
    Registered Users Posts: 1,635 ✭✭✭TylerIE


    tacofries wrote: »
    Good to know about the phone tracking. I would find it awful hard explaining to them where I live and even with perfect directions they'd still probably get it wrong!!!!

    Thanks Cork

    Bit late but just for anybody reading this in future or in case your relying on it...

    If your mobile is your only way of calling the emergency services at home, or if you have children who may have to call 999 / 112 for you please have pre-prepared directions written down where you and all others, including kids, can easily get them.

    We recently took a call where a person was driving in a rural area they hadnt been in before and crashed. Long story short they were lost in a field in the middle of nowhere, and while they were only 10 minutes from two large towns it took over 90 minutes to find the incident, as it was on a local road connecting two regional roads, and had limited coverage. The phone tracing gave us an area that really only confirmed that they were somewhere between the last village they left and the main road they were aiming for - which was a warren of roads.

    Seperate but a pet peeve from medical calls - if you live in a gated complex or have coded doors or gates either give the Service Operator the code for the gates or get someone to got to the exit with a "Buzzer" for the gates and/or to open the door - or preferably both. If an incident is serious enough to warrant calling 999, and an Ambulance/Fire/Garda crew are after risking their safety in an emergency response the least you can do is make sure they are not sitting waiting at the gates / door for 5 - 10 minutes while they ring back for a code or wait for someone.


  • #41
    savagecabbages
    Registered Users Posts: 871 ✭✭✭savagecabbages


    source wrote: »
    Relying on the phone masts isn't a good idea, it was only through local knowledge that we found the woman before she could do anything.

    I know what you mean and you're dead right. I'm not saying we should rely solely on phone tracking, but it could/can? still help.
    An example would be where a call was received reporting "someone in the water..." in Ballina was recieved, and fire&rescue were alerted in Ballina Co. Mayo. Locating the phone to even the 50km radius would have helped here.


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  • #42
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,069 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    Do the Breitling Emergency watches work here, if you set it off would somebody get the emergency signal, it broadcasts on 121.5Mhz in the states I think, its more for avaitors but could the ordinary man in street have one, is there a fine here for setting it off.

    http://www.breitling.com/en/models/professional/emergency/presentation/index.php

    Anything cheaper that could be used?


  • #43
    d3exile
    Registered Users Posts: 175 ✭✭d3exile


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    Do the Breitling Emergency watches work here, if you set it off would somebody get the emergency signal, it broadcasts on 121.5Mhz in the states I think, its more for avaitors but could the ordinary man in street have one, is there a fine here for setting it off.

    http://www.breitling.com/en/models/professional/emergency/presentation/index.php

    Anything cheaper that could be used?

    Most smartphones have apps for maps and gps, would be great to see some way of sending that location to the dispatcher, like sending your location via whatsapp, afaik It can be correct to 15m or so, depending on your signal strength, but never seen it more than 100m off....

    We're very slow here at adapting technology, it could be a very easy thing to set up, and useful given how many smartphones are around now...


  • #44
    Mr Simpson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,332 ✭✭✭Mr Simpson


    d3exile wrote: »
    Most smartphones have apps for maps and gps, would be great to see some way of sending that location to the dispatcher, like sending your location via whatsapp, afaik It can be correct to 15m or so, depending on your signal strength, but never seen it more than 100m off....

    We're very slow here at adapting technology, it could be a very easy thing to set up, and useful given how many smartphones are around now...

    In the states they use a system call E911 (Enhanced), simply put, Emergency dispatchers put in a request to mobile company for location. Mobile phone company must provide location, accurate to 300 metres within 6 minutes. It also has other requirements.

    Wiki Link


  • #45
    999/112
    Registered Users Posts: 186 ✭✭999/112


    Have a look at this. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056510625


  • #46
    deaglan169
    Registered Users Posts: 1,045 ✭✭✭deaglan169


    Hightower21 wrote: »
    from Wikipedia:

    Range
    The working range of a cell site - the range within which mobile devices can connect to it reliably - is not a fixed figure. It will depend on a number of factors,

    In practice, cell sites are grouped in areas of high population density, with the most potential users. Cell phone traffic through a single cell mast is limited by the mast's capacity; there is a finite number of calls or data traffic that a mast can handle at once. This limitation is another factor affecting the spacing of cell mast sites. In suburban areas, masts are commonly spaced 1–2 miles (2–3 km) apart and in dense urban areas, masts may be as close as ¼-½ mile (400–800 m) apart. Cell masts always reserve part of their available bandwidth for emergency calls.
    The maximum range of a mast (where it is not limited by interference with other masts nearby) depends on the same circumstances. Some technologies, such as GSM, normally have a fixed maximum range of 35 kilometres (22 mi), which is imposed by technical limitations. CDMA and IDEN have no built-in limit, but the limiting factor is the ability of a low-powered personal cell phone to transmit back to the mast. As a rough guide, based on a tall mast and flat terrain, it is possible to get between 50 to 70 km (30–45 miles). When the terrain is hilly, the maximum distance can vary from as little as 5 kilometres (3.1 mi) to 8 kilometres (5.0 mi) due to encroachment of intermediate objects into the wide center fresnel zone of the signal.[3] Depending on terrain and other circumstances, a GSM Tower can replace between 2 and 50 miles (80 km) of cabling for fixed wireless networks.[4]


    So anywhere from 2 km to 50km!
    Hello Garda 1, This is Bravo... Head out to Tullamore for that call. Its in or around the midlands are.

    as some of the other posters have said i think it has an advantage, if i ring up and say " 3 vehicle rta multiple casualties" and battery dies, or they can at least go ok the call was routed off the mast outside monaghan town and they could dispatch gardai etc... last time i called for an ambulance the dispatcher said go ahead caller in monaghan and i was on my northern work mobile at the time with no roaming but knew i could make an emergency call.


  • #47
    elhal
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 105 ✭✭elhal


    I believe that the gardai in Kinsale have started using loc8 codes on the satnav to locate houses. no need for someone to be outside the house or providing directions
    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/community-group-donates-sat-navs-to-gardai-in-bid-to-stave-off-gangs-191719.html


  • #48
    anyone_local
    Registered Users Posts: 20 ✭anyone_local


    speaking for the fire service in Munster only appliances with Mobile Data Terminals have GPS. And at that only some towns have maps unploaded to the system in Control which can give accurate locations. As for the sticks im afraid a Fire Icon just pops up in the townland and we are reliant on the directions given by the caller. It is therefore vital clear directions are given along with a phone number to the controller taking the call.


  • #49
    Potential-Monke
    Registered Users Posts: 13,798 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    The other thing to note with GPS is that not all systems are the same, ie: the GPS on the Tetra handsets does not correspond with Google Maps coordinates, and i'm sure TomTom and Garmin have their own maps too which would be different to the rest.


  • #50
    999nobody
    Registered Users Posts: 73 ✭✭999nobody


    The main thing to note is that ambulance crews have to buy their own Sat nav, we're not even supplied with an old fashioned map.


  • #51
    elhal
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 105 ✭✭elhal


    I* have seen in emergency services forums alot of serving members are crying out for a postcode system such as the ones in use on Garmin satnavs. These bring a user within 5m of the house... excellent idea which, I believe, would save many lives and help the emergency services immensely.


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  • #52
    thirty-six dragons
    Registered Users Posts: 108 ✭✭thirty-six dragons


    I had the great experience of giving driving instructions to the firemen while my house was on fire. It seemed like forever at the time and crazy surreal to be giving folklore information about crossroads and the house with the stone wall and the new bungalow and the dirt road, etc., while your house is on fire. But in reality they were there in no time at all - of course they were on the road while the instructions were being delivered.

    Still though, in the end I had to flag them over with a torch.

    Irish addressing is useless.

    Pity landline numbers are not geocoded for the emergency services.


  • #53
    DylanII
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,102 ✭✭✭DylanII


    Its ridiculous that there is no way of tracking mobiles.

    I came across an accident a while back and I was in the middle of no where. Car was in a ditch. I rang 999 and I didnt know where I was. It took nearly two hours for them to find us.

    There should even be an app on your phone. You could just go into the app and it would send your details to the person on the phone.

    Its just stupidity that the emergency services dont have nat navs!


  • #54
    Bang Bang
    Registered Users Posts: 774 ✭✭✭Bang Bang


    DylanII wrote: »
    There should even be an app on your phone. You could just go into the app and it would send your details to the person on the phone.

    Most Smart phones have mapping that will give you location coordinates. As recently as last week a member of the public who came upon a serious accident in a rural setting, used the mapping coordinates on their smart phone which she passed onto Command & Control who could then pinpoint the location of the accident through the Control room system. The location was then passed onto the ambulance crews responding.


  • #55
    elhal
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 105 ✭✭elhal


    try point8


  • #56
    thirty-six dragons
    Registered Users Posts: 108 ✭✭thirty-six dragons


    I would recommend that everyone in rural areas strive to have a unique house name, or at least any house name - it is the only way the GeoDirectory distinguishes rural addresses. Hopefully emergency dispatchers have access to this directory.


  • #57
    civdef
    Registered Users Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭civdef


    Ambulance and Fire do anyway, not sure about Gardai?


  • #58
    robo008
    Closed Accounts Posts: 55 ✭✭robo008


    Dont know if its been posted before but thought you might find this intersting

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44rhlyJHG8c


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