Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

Shefwedfan · 05-12-2019 7:53pm

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

The major criticism I picked up was not rotating the squad enough after the Scotland match, given the 6 day turnaround, the age of some of the players, the heat, and the travel, not to mention the stress of delivering a performance back to back.

In hindsight I'd bet that Schmidt would have freshened up his 23 for the Japan match a bit more, I felt at the time that it was too big of an ask and unfortunately now according to Best it seems that was the case.

I mentioned swapping the front liners and bringing in a new front row etc for Japan game and it was laughed about here....

I mentioned the humity and again people laughed about it here.....comments like Ireland has higher humidity

So people looking back in hindsight now saying he should have swapped the front liners had a different opinion at the time.

Not saying you did, but it was a discussion on here

thomond2006 · 05-12-2019 7:58pm

Buer wrote: »

Glad we agree.

FFS Buer

Clegg · 05-12-2019 7:59pm

Venjur wrote: »

I see the glee crew are back.

Jog on lads, cop onto yourselves.

How very dare you. They're only offering HONEST OPINIONS given in good faith.

The Lost Sheep · 05-12-2019 9:30pm

connemara man wrote: »

You definitely can't say theres been success at women's level, maybe in playing numbers but having to qualify for the next world cup is a huge step backwards

And player's are moving to England for better game time and coaching

yeah hasn't been great success in terms of results but processes have been put in place to help things long term in womens rugby. There is clubs in England who can support women rugby far more than herem player base is spread far too narrow here and while provincial and international side need more games and assistance it's the club game that need changes to help things more.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Has he?

The Leinster academy and school system was already in place when he arrived. Most of the players in the team now got picked out by Joe at youth and brought up via the system by Joe(Larmour, Ryan etc)

yes the academy system and school system was in place.but he has had incredibly positive impact though did he really pick them out from young age? Already well into the set up before he picked them out

Outside of Leinster the other provinces have struggled to produce players for the Irish team. He doesn't seem to have done anything to resolve these issues.

because the players in the most part have come from schools that dont exist in the other provinces in terms of support financially as well as numbers. It takes a long long time to really improve age grade structures and development structures

Ok he was involved with the Carbery move but other players seem to have decided to move on their own.

He failed to stop players like Madigan/Zebo/D Ryan moving abroad

Ryan would have stayed if given offer that was good enough.

Players like Farrell, Addison & Haley all mention Joe when discussing about moving to Ireland. C Farrell especially as Jackman said Joe was always on the phone looking for updates etc

The womens 15's game has been a disaster.

He could claim the men's 7's has been a success. I dont know enough about the womens 7's to comment

womens 15s has been disaster but is mix of so many reasons that have been mentioned here countless times before. Womens 7s first got onto world series for 13/14. Didnt compete in 14/15 but been on world series every season since. Womens best series finish was a 9th and havent won an individual tournament but have won plates

Former Former · 05-12-2019 9:44pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Ryan would have stayed if given offer that was good enough.

Didn't Ryan say pretty much the exact opposite?

Niallof9 · 06-12-2019 9:15am

tototoe wrote: »

Might be a bit strong, but for sure the Joe brand is badly damaged. The truth is slowly trickling out but some of the blind faithful still can't see it.

Whoever advised him on the timing of his book release should resign. Where he got the time to write a book in a world cup year is anyone's guess. He had one job, and seems to have made a mess of the ending.

In Joe we trust..bla bla bla

Will be very interesting to see what Farrell does, more of the same is not an option.

Yeah you'll get some flak for this post, but only yesterday Jackman was talking about how brands get damaged quite easily in the coaching World. More in regards to ex players becoming coaches. But Joe i think needs to get back in the game as quickly as possible.

Brendan Fanning had a great article on Joe's tenure. Not as rosy as everyone thinks. Knowing people who know him, like Sexton on the pitch, the man is not to be trifled with. This was easily observed pre match in the aviva as players hit rucking bags. He can be a very scary man at times. Just like Jono, who lads in Marys quickly found out when they started training with a then 18 year old.

Brendan Fanning, a close observer of the club game, reckoned Joe was building his brand by going to clubs, doing the circuit, i mean Schmidt must have spoken at my clubs match lunches at least 4 or 5 times. The book is probably part of that. His record though speaks for itself. He has trophies coming out his ears. that's essential. But on top of that he built alot of goodwill with rugby people throughout the land. I mean with his Mullingar background, it makes sense he liked the club game.

For me its Farrell who has to be careful. If it goes badly for him, i don't think there is another head coach role for him. While i'm told he will play an exciting game, and loves an offload, the more we see the silence and all this afters, i just can't believe we've gone with somebody who hasn't been a head coach before as well as having been tainted by two failed World Cups.

I can't wait for the Six Nations to roll around so all this can be put to bed once and for all. If Farrell picks on form, which means no Murray, no Kearney etc, then maybe i'll be more positive.

Shefwedfan · 06-12-2019 9:56am

Niallof9 wrote: »

Yeah you'll get some flak for this post, but only yesterday Jackman was talking about how brands get damaged quite easily in the coaching World. More in regards to ex players becoming coaches. But Joe i think needs to get back in the game as quickly as possible.

Brendan Fanning had a great article on Joe's tenure. Not as rosy as everyone thinks. Knowing people who know him, like Sexton on the pitch, the man is not to be trifled with. This was easily observed pre match in the aviva as players hit rucking bags. He can be a very scary man at times. Just like Jono, who lads in Marys quickly found out when they started training with a then 18 year old.

Brendan Fanning, a close observer of the club game, reckoned Joe was building his brand by going to clubs, doing the circuit, i mean Schmidt must have spoken at my clubs match lunches at least 4 or 5 times. The book is probably part of that. His record though speaks for itself. He has trophies coming out his ears. that's essential. But on top of that he built alot of goodwill with rugby people throughout the land. I mean with his Mullingar background, it makes sense he liked the club game.

For me its Farrell who has to be careful. If it goes badly for him, i don't think there is another head coach role for him. While i'm told he will play an exciting game, and loves an offload, the more we see the silence and all this afters, i just can't believe we've gone with somebody who hasn't been a head coach before as well as having been tainted by two failed World Cups.

I can't wait for the Six Nations to roll around so all this can be put to bed once and for all. If Farrell picks on form, which means no Murray, no Kearney etc, then maybe i'll be more positive.

Surprised you have another post on how terrible Joe is

Now your just making stuff up....it is clear the squad had a good relationship with Joe, just look at players like POC who wasn’t a fan prior to ireland job. I haven’t seen a single retired player from any province bad mouth him

No idea what your going on about the club game, at the time it was seen as a huge positive that Joe would attend these events, is known to have done events on the cheap and the organiser make a donation to charity instead

Joe is gone, so maybe we can give it a rest with the Joe bashing????

Interested Observer · 06-12-2019 9:59am

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Ryan would have stayed if given offer that was good enough.

Nope. There was so much wailing and gnashing from Munster supporters + media cheerleaders about how Heaslip got a central contract and Ryan didn't, the fact Ryan wanted to leave/have a new experience got totally lost. He has talked about it plenty.

Jump_In_Jack · 06-12-2019 10:03am

Just reading up on Nucifora's comments, may be covered here already but I found this bit very interesting in the Belfast Telegraph yesterday:

"He said the coaches had taken the decision to try and get 10-15 per cent more from the existing game-plan rather than try to evolve their style of play to encompass more offloading and effective counter-attacking.

While he said that evolution represented a risk, he believes in hindsight that it was worth going with.

The former Australia hooker said the coaches had got their preparation and strategy for Ireland's pivotal opening matches against Scotland and Japan wrong.

They had, he revealed, put all of their eggs in the Scotland basket and, having performed brilliantly in that opening encounter, they couldn't replicate their efforts against the host nation.

Indeed, he confirmed that they had underestimated Jamie Joseph's side's capacity to perform as well as they did and suffered a shock defeat that damaged them mentally and put them on course for the All Blacks in a quarter-final."

So basically,
by going even more detailed in their existing game plan, (Best also mentioned overloading players with information), instead of playing more intuitively with more freedom to attack and play heads-up rugby.
Underestimating Japan, not rotating the team enough despite having 6 days to recover while Japan had 8 days to recover after an easier match.
Mentally wrecked after that shock loss and then not believing they could beat new Zealand.
Best's comments that they were overloaded on the day of the New Zealand match giving rise to too much tension the day of the match.

It all sounds very plausible,
as good as Joe is at developing a detailed game plan, if the players can't absorb all the detail and feel overwhelmed, it's overkill.
And the squad wasn't rotated after the Scotland match, for all the talk about depth, this one was a huge mistake that derailed the whole campaign.
And the players couldn't relax and conserve their energy on the day of the new Zealand match as they were being bombarded with further information.

Looking at the two team sheets between Scotland and Japan matches,
The backs were changed a bit with injuries and injured players returning.
but the pack did an immense job against Scotland, and not one change 6 days later.
Best played the full 80 against Scotland (injury to Van der Flier meant Scannell had to cover him), and started again against Japan.
Ryan played 80 in both matches.
Van der Flier played 73 against Scotland and 80 against Japan.
Stander played 80 in both matches.

Hopefully this is a lesson for future campaigns.
The Scotland match was perfectly executed, but then the planning for the Japan fell down, failing to recognise the value in rotating the squad.
Best should have been on the bench or fully rested against Japan.
Kleyn should have started Tighthead Lock instead of Ryan against Japan.
Beirne and Ruddock should have started in the back row against Japan instead of O'Mahony and Stander, especially with O'Mahony coming straight back in from concussion after Conan injured his foot, and Stander going the full 80 against Scotland and needing him to do it again 6 days later.

My suspicion is that the coaches didn't trust that the subs knew the game plan well enough, because individually the subs are very good players, should have been no doubt about their ability, and the game plan shouldn't have been so complicated to begin with.

Niallof9 · 06-12-2019 11:38am

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Surprised you have another post on how terrible Joe is

Now your just making stuff up....it is clear the squad had a good relationship with Joe, just look at players like POC who wasn’t a fan prior to ireland job. I haven’t seen a single retired player from any province bad mouth him

No idea what your going on about the club game, at the time it was seen as a huge positive that Joe would attend these events, is known to have done events on the cheap and the organiser make a donation to charity instead

Joe is gone, so maybe we can give it a rest with the Joe bashing????

I never said they didn't. I didn't make anything up. Joe is a really really tough task master. Players avoided bumping into him in hotels as he would ask them plays etc. He was ruthless. He could be a volcano of fury, laden with expletives and rage. The milky bar kid only in tv pictures. As is Sexton. think the Racing hooker punch. Like I heard Sexton had Mike Ross nearly in tears after a bawling out over a training play. Thats the level of intensity i'm talking about. It got oppressive i'd imagine. Again these are things you can verify with your own eyes. Schmidt b4 games, and Jono in matches (he's calmed alot)

The fear factor/got too much is a clear reason what went wrong in the end. Even Henderson and Stockdale talked about how refreshing it was to get back to Ulster. Best talking about it. Loads of other players who were in camp have referenced it. Ross, Trimble, Fitzgerald, McFadden, Zebo, McCloskey, Reddan...current players have even explained Joe's style - Kearney explaining why he attacks back into heavy traffic one example. how many more do you need? They still think Joe is amazing. I know four people who work/worked in professional rugby. Best talking about it. The players loved Joe as a coach and leader, that is clear, but it obviously became too much in the end. Nucifora as well really. I mean come on now, Schmidt isn't the hill you have to die on. He was our most succesful coach ever but failed in two World Cups playing a pretty boring and unrelenting, physical, possession based, recycling style. He started trusting younger players more, but never went away from what he knew/trusting a different game plan. It was all just minor tweaks with similar, and in fairness, successful outcomes. End of story.

Also i never said its a negative about clubs. I was actually going to say maybe thats something he could do here in his year off - boost the AIL etc. I was answering in terms of the book. He was clever to touch base, it dampened criticism. Look at Eddie or Declan Kindey (who its great to see bacK) became pariahs, you could even include Gatland in that. We have a weird way of looking at former coaches. And Kidney was successful ( i was a savage critic in the end). They didn't do enough PR.

You love twisting things.

To bring it to the present and about the now, the reverse might be a positive, maybe Farrell brings a freshness and we lose the fear/stranglehold. That's my hope.

aloooof · 06-12-2019 12:03pm

Aside from anything else, I don't think Sexton has calmed a lot at all tbh.

Niallof9 · 06-12-2019 12:04pm

Yeah maybe not

its probably only going to make it worse for him now as his body starts betraying him. Could that be a weakness now i wonder. The well of frustration.

The one thing about Sexton is that he wasn't an academy kid. Was playing AIL at 24 He has become much more sturdy as well physically which peaked in his Racing years. Some of the lads in Mary's used to call him Monty Burns, the rounded skinny shoulders, not into weights etc. Now he's a bit of a beast even at 34.

I think that will stand to him.

I think he'll be captain and ten until Joey is ready. We will see the same process Sexton himself had when ROG was around. Even the camera cutaways/reaction shots.

AbusesToilets · 06-12-2019 4:32pm

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Just reading up on Nucifora's comments, may be covered here already but I found this bit very interesting in the Belfast Telegraph yesterday:

"He said the coaches had taken the decision to try and get 10-15 per cent more from the existing game-plan rather than try to evolve their style of play to encompass more offloading and effective counter-attacking.

While he said that evolution represented a risk, he believes in hindsight that it was worth going with.

The former Australia hooker said the coaches had got their preparation and strategy for Ireland's pivotal opening matches against Scotland and Japan wrong.

They had, he revealed, put all of their eggs in the Scotland basket and, having performed brilliantly in that opening encounter, they couldn't replicate their efforts against the host nation.

Indeed, he confirmed that they had underestimated Jamie Joseph's side's capacity to perform as well as they did and suffered a shock defeat that damaged them mentally and put them on course for the All Blacks in a quarter-final."

So basically,
by going even more detailed in their existing game plan, (Best also mentioned overloading players with information), instead of playing more intuitively with more freedom to attack and play heads-up rugby.
Underestimating Japan, not rotating the team enough despite having 6 days to recover while Japan had 8 days to recover after an easier match.
Mentally wrecked after that shock loss and then not believing they could beat new Zealand.
Best's comments that they were overloaded on the day of the New Zealand match giving rise to too much tension the day of the match.

It all sounds very plausible,
as good as Joe is at developing a detailed game plan, if the players can't absorb all the detail and feel overwhelmed, it's overkill.
And the squad wasn't rotated after the Scotland match, for all the talk about depth, this one was a huge mistake that derailed the whole campaign.
And the players couldn't relax and conserve their energy on the day of the new Zealand match as they were being bombarded with further information.

Looking at the two team sheets between Scotland and Japan matches,
The backs were changed a bit with injuries and injured players returning.
but the pack did an immense job against Scotland, and not one change 6 days later.
Best played the full 80 against Scotland (injury to Van der Flier meant Scannell had to cover him), and started again against Japan.
Ryan played 80 in both matches.
Van der Flier played 73 against Scotland and 80 against Japan.
Stander played 80 in both matches.

Hopefully this is a lesson for future campaigns.
The Scotland match was perfectly executed, but then the planning for the Japan fell down, failing to recognise the value in rotating the squad.
Best should have been on the bench or fully rested against Japan.
Kleyn should have started Tighthead Lock instead of Ryan against Japan.
Beirne and Ruddock should have started in the back row against Japan instead of O'Mahony and Stander, especially with O'Mahony coming straight back in from concussion after Conan injured his foot, and Stander going the full 80 against Scotland and needing him to do it again 6 days later.

My suspicion is that the coaches didn't trust that the subs knew the game plan well enough, because individually the subs are very good players, should have been no doubt about their ability, and the game plan shouldn't have been so complicated to begin with.

The aspect I always find puzzling, is how such experienced players are incapable of recognizing when something isn't working, and adjusting on the fly. The team was almost perfect, in terms of experience and caps, when compared to other successful WC sides. Multiple champions throughout the team. Yet unable to adjust and overcome adversity on the field. If your plan is predicated on an ideal scenario unfolding, then you've already set yourself up for failure. Did they not train for contingencies, or what to do if their game plan was being stymied?

arsebiscuits1 · 06-12-2019 4:39pm

Venjur wrote: »

I see the glee crew are back.

Jog on lads, cop onto yourselves.

They just make me so angry.

Their cover of Don't Stop Believing was diabolical

Professor Genius · 06-12-2019 9:11pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

The aspect I always find puzzling, is how such experienced players are incapable of recognizing when something isn't working, and adjusting on the fly. The team was almost perfect, in terms of experience and caps, when compared to other successful WC sides. Multiple champions throughout the team. Yet unable to adjust and overcome adversity on the field. If your plan is predicated on an ideal scenario unfolding, then you've already set yourself up for failure. Did they not train for contingencies, or what to do if their game plan was being stymied?

Joe stymied them completely . It was impossible to overcome his micro management by all accounts. Disaster by process

Shefwedfan · 06-12-2019 9:31pm

Professor Genius wrote: »

Joe stymied them completely . It was impossible to overcome his micro management by all accounts. Disaster by process

Seriously?

Grown adults? Plus all the coach’s, Nucifora etc?

If true would you not think ex international, all the players etc would be out now saying so? Joe is gone so they don’t owe him anything so why are they not all in the press?

Even the likes of Zebo who has never got on with him hasn’t come out against him

molloyjh · 07-12-2019 12:11am

It's pretty clear from what we're hearing what actually happened. It started with the players falling into bad habits and when they couldnt get out of that rut themselves the coaches tried to do it for them. But that ended up only making things worse. And there was nobody from the outside looking in calling it out, which would call into question what Nucifora and the IRFU as a whole were doing between the 6Ns and the RWC.

I know some people want to be able to boil it down to a simple, blame one man hot take, but real life isnt often that simplistic.

ionadnapokot · 07-12-2019 8:27am

It’s been pretty clear ever since the 1st game of the 6N v England that Murray, Sexton and Best were not playing well. & continued to not play well in all of the losses this year.

I think it’s fair to say that Joe got the selection v Japan wrong. & probably v NZ culminating in a perfect storm.

What is very unfair is that Best and to a lesser extent Nucifora have effectively thrown Joe under the bus.

I really hope we hear some actual REAL honesty from the PLAYERS - “ we ****ed up. I didn’t play well. Hadn’t been for playing well for months and I started making more mistakes and panicked”.

Imagine the balls it would take to say that?

It will probably only happen when players retire, reflect and are secure enough in themselves to hold the hand up.

It’s easy to let Schmidt take the blame. Especially when he will never blame players.

Hashbleedintag RESPECT

Shefwedfan · 07-12-2019 8:42am

ionadnapokot wrote: »

It’s been pretty clear ever since the 1st game of the 6N v England that Murray, Sexton and Best were not playing well. & continued to not play well in all of the losses this year.

Bit harsh on the 3 players.

POM has been terrible for over a year. Furlong has had a dip in form. Stockdale is not playing well

Carbery is never fit. Carty is...you know how I feel. Henderson is great one week and very average the next.

Standar has no help in back row so was ineffective. Was Aki up to usual standard?

Conan foot injury, Murphy injury when he flew out....Addison getting injured so couldn’t replace Henshaw etc etc etc etc

If anything we only played decent with Sexton on the team. Pointing at 1-3 players is silly in my opinion because it was an overall issue.

You can’t just pick Sexton and say it’s his fault, that’s seems to be the narrative from some. As people mentioned it was loads of little things and it went wrong

ClanofLams · 07-12-2019 8:55am

molloyjh wrote: »

It's pretty clear from what we're hearing what actually happened. It started with the players falling into bad habits and when they couldnt get out of that rut themselves the coaches tried to do it for them. But that ended up only making things worse. And there was nobody from the outside looking in calling it out, which would call into question what Nucifora and the IRFU as a whole were doing between the 6Ns and the RWC.

I know some people want to be able to boil it down to a simple, blame one man hot take, but real life isnt often that simplistic.

The buck has to stop somewhere. Last November Schmidt was being lauded as a coaching genius and the best in the world. I didn’t hear too many on here giving off about it being simplistic.

He’s an excellent coach, the best Ireland have had but he made significant mistakes this year, as did others around him.

Don’t think anyone is coming out of the post mortem very well to be honest.

sydthebeat · 07-12-2019 9:01am

ClanofLams wrote: »

Don’t think anyone is coming out of the post mortem very well to be honest.

Not enough questions asked of nucifora and the IRFUs oversight in my opinion.

Where was the communications with the players about the stress of intensity levels, degree of detail accumulation, game plan issues.

Who watches the watch men?

Was it simply a case of Joe having gotten Ireland to such heights that there was no one in a position to say whoa, stall the ball, this may not be the right way to go with things?? As they could never have been in a similar position before...

A case of icarus.....

Former Former · 07-12-2019 9:16am

I think the last few days confirm what we already knew, i.e. Joe is a total control freak and the playing squad was devoid of real leaders. I guess it's natural that players who had been so successful under Joe would be slow to question him but it sounds like someone needed to step up. Unfortunately this group of players didn't have a Wood, BOD or POC like previous years. Best wasn't that man and neither were POM and Sexton.

Remember the story about Kearney standing up and calling out the Munster guys in 2008? That this was somehow the turning point for the 2009 GS? I've always thought this was nonsense but maybe that's what was needed this year, a player from outside the established leadership group to call shenanigans on Joe, Best and the situation.

The other thing that's worth nothing is that if what we're hearing is accurate, it all happened while Andy Farrell was standing there watching on...

Shefwedfan · 07-12-2019 10:40am

ClanofLams wrote: »

The buck has to stop somewhere. Last November Schmidt was being lauded as a coaching genius and the best in the world. I didn’t hear too many on here giving off about it being simplistic.

He’s an excellent coach, the best Ireland have had but he made significant mistakes this year, as did others around him.

Don’t think anyone is coming out of the post mortem very well to be honest.

I’m not saying joe didn’t make mistakes but he had a manager for Ireland team, Nucifora, irfu etc....people seem to forget about all these people

Maybe joe and the coaching team was too close to it. They needed someone from outside to come in and say “lads we need to review what we are doing”

Is that Nucifora job? The managers job? If not what’s the point in all these jobs?

stephen_n · 07-12-2019 10:56am

Former Former wrote: »

I think the last few days confirm what we already knew, i.e. Joe is a total control freak and the playing squad was devoid of real leaders. I guess it's natural that players who had been so successful under Joe would be slow to question him but it sounds like someone needed to step up. Unfortunately this group of players didn't have a Wood, BOD or POC like previous years. Best wasn't that man and neither were POM and Sexton.

Remember the story about Kearney standing up and calling out the Munster guys in 2008? That this was somehow the turning point for the 2009 GS? I've always thought this was nonsense but maybe that's what was needed this year, a player from outside the established leadership group to call shenanigans on Joe, Best and the situation.

The other thing that's worth nothing is that if what we're hearing is accurate, it all happened while Andy Farrell was standing there watching on...

Farrell is in a pretty awkward situation there, as incoming coach it wouldn’t be good for him to be seen as undermining the incumbent. Possibly he should have or did pull Joe aside, but we’ll never know about that.

awec · 07-12-2019 11:59am

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I’m not saying joe didn’t make mistakes but he had a manager for Ireland team, Nucifora, irfu etc....people seem to forget about all these people

Maybe joe and the coaching team was too close to it. They needed someone from outside to come in and say “lads we need to review what we are doing”

Is that Nucifora job? The managers job? If not what’s the point in all these jobs?

Nucifora's job is to be the hatchet man.

Professor Genius · 07-12-2019 12:01pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I’m not saying joe didn’t make mistakes but he had a manager for Ireland team, Nucifora, irfu etc....people seem to forget about all these people

Maybe joe and the coaching team was too close to it. They needed someone from outside to come in and say “lads we need to review what we are doing”

Is that Nucifora job? The managers job? If not what’s the point in all these jobs?

Given the level of deference shown to Joe (just look at this forum) I would say no one thought they were in a position to question him. IRFU need to be very careful never to allow such control freakery to be present in future head coaches.

awec · 07-12-2019 12:02pm

Former Former wrote: »

I think the last few days confirm what we already knew, i.e. Joe is a total control freak and the playing squad was devoid of real leaders. I guess it's natural that players who had been so successful under Joe would be slow to question him but it sounds like someone needed to step up. Unfortunately this group of players didn't have a Wood, BOD or POC like previous years. Best wasn't that man and neither were POM and Sexton.

Remember the story about Kearney standing up and calling out the Munster guys in 2008? That this was somehow the turning point for the 2009 GS? I've always thought this was nonsense but maybe that's what was needed this year, a player from outside the established leadership group to call shenanigans on Joe, Best and the situation.

The other thing that's worth nothing is that if what we're hearing is accurate, it all happened while Andy Farrell was standing there watching on...

If certain accounts are to be believed Schmidt would not react well to someone standing and questioning his methods.

He is a control freak. So when things go well, he gets the kudos, but when things go bad, then he really has to carry the can on that. Not sure I would put too much blame on players not pushing their point more.

sydthebeat · 07-12-2019 1:01pm

Professor Genius wrote: »

Given the level of deference shown to Joe (just look at this forum) I would say no one thought they were in a position to question him. IRFU need to be very careful never to allow such control freakery to be present in future head coaches.

You can't have absolutes that... As that "control freakery" as you put it gave us our best ever period in green.

The problem was it progressed unchecked to the point of the players lacking influence

bilston · 07-12-2019 1:07pm

Former Former wrote: »

I think the last few days confirm what we already knew, i.e. Joe is a total control freak and the playing squad was devoid of real leaders. I guess it's natural that players who had been so successful under Joe would be slow to question him but it sounds like someone needed to step up. Unfortunately this group of players didn't have a Wood, BOD or POC like previous years. Best wasn't that man and neither were POM and Sexton.

Remember the story about Kearney standing up and calling out the Munster guys in 2008? That this was somehow the turning point for the 2009 GS? I've always thought this was nonsense but maybe that's what was needed this year, a player from outside the established leadership group to call shenanigans on Joe, Best and the situation.

The other thing that's worth nothing is that if what we're hearing is accurate, it all happened while Andy Farrell was standing there watching on...

In the same way coaches have to judge whether players will react better to a carrot or stick approach, players have to make the same judgements on coaches. Maybe Kidney was more open to letting Kearney speak out in 2008/09 than Schmidt would have have been in 2019.

I reckon this has all been blown out of proportion anyway by the media.

Although...interestingly I did hear a story recently about a retired international who would have played in the early years of the Schmidt regime speak in not particularly favourable terms about Joe. I was surprised to hear it actually. But then that's just hearsay and the player in question wasn't involved in the 2019 WC.

stephen_n · 07-12-2019 1:24pm

bilston wrote: »

In the same way coaches have to judge whether players will react better to a carrot or stick approach, players have to make the same judgements on coaches. Maybe Kidney was more open to letting Kearney speak out in 2008/09 than Schmidt would have have been in 2019.

I reckon this has all been blown out of proportion anyway by the media.

Although...interestingly I did hear a story recently about a retired international who would have played in the early years of the Schmidt regime speak in not particularly favourable terms about Joe. I was surprised to hear it actually. But then that's just hearsay and the player in question wasn't involved in the 2019 WC.

Well Luke Fitzgerald has been quite vocal about the over coaching bit. So to a degree has Jamie but just not so critical.

Did Joe really change that much between 2018 and 2019? I really don’t think there is one thing or one answer to what happened. It’s a combination of elements that all added up to a poor season.

Onwards and upwards, I’m sure at this stage the IRFU, players and coaches have a lot clearer idea of what’s needed that the media or us. They have a lot of information that won’t appear in any report.

Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

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