Should convicted rapists be castrated

beer enigma · 31-07-2004 3:07pm #1

I've just finished reading the report in today's Examiner about the five lads from Limerick who pleaded guilty to the gang rape of a woman & assault of her boyfriend.

Apart from feeling revulsion over the whole thing, the worst of the sentences was 10 years, with the youngest guy (still under 16) getting four years detention. What on earth use are these guys to society , let alone the danger they will probably still pose when they're released in about 5 or 6 years time.

Now, maybe you'll think me extreme, but if you castrated them all, they'd never pose a similar risk to society again.

Stark · 31-07-2004 3:24pm

They might deserve castration, but how's it going to help really? You don't need to be fully functional in the down below area to sexually assualt someone or commit an alternative form of violent crime for that matter.

Silent Grape · 31-07-2004 4:10pm

i dont agree with the castration thing. these people obviously have problems, castration wont solve the problem and return them 'safely' into the community. hopefully by the end of their term they may have grown up and sorted out whatever it was that made them commit such a crime.

Saint · 31-07-2004 4:12pm

Silent Grape wrote:

i dont agree with the castration thing. these people obviously have problems, castration wont solve the problem and return them 'safely' into the community. hopefully by the end of their term they may have grown up and sorted out whatever it was that made them commit such a crime.

well the victim obviously has a problem, not to sure about those that did it however.

Silent Grape · 31-07-2004 4:14pm

their penis' didnt make them do it, they're heads did, and as stark said, there are many other ways of sexual assault that do not have anything to do with a penis.

Bard · 31-07-2004 4:16pm

No, they should be chained up, covered in petrol, set alight and left to burn. That would probably help.

beer enigma · 31-07-2004 4:35pm

Silent Grape wrote:

i dont agree with the castration thing. these people obviously have problems, castration wont solve the problem and return them 'safely' into the community. hopefully by the end of their term they may have grown up and sorted out whatever it was that made them commit such a crime.

But it may certainly put an end to their sexual desires. The effects of castration will almost certainly reduce their sexual urges to zero. Why do guys like this have rights ?? - what about the victim - she's condemned to a lifetime of it, not just a few years.

Silent Grape, you say its their heads that make them do it -the effect of castration is in effect to nullify any sexual thinking, thus reduce the risk. They still keep their penis, just lose their desire.

Stark · 31-07-2004 4:39pm

Rape has nothing to do with sexual desire.

beer enigma · 31-07-2004 4:43pm

Well I have to admit that I'm not an expert on the subject (thankfully), but there must be an element of sexual gratification in it

Silent Grape · 31-07-2004 4:44pm

stark is right, rape has absolutely nothing to do with sexual desire. rape should be called a power assault, instead of a sexual assault. men dont rape women because they are horny. they rape women because they are incredibly greedy with power, and also incredibly incredibly insecure.

i am not justifying what they did in any way, but castration will not 'help' the problem and wont help in putting a turned around individual back on the streets, just maybe a more screwed up one, who may never be able to reconstruct their lives in a positive way. and thats what society needs to be able to do.

obviously being in prison takes away they're right of freedom.

beer enigma · 31-07-2004 4:57pm

So when the paper reports one of the 16 year olds in court saying "we came across them and i fancied a shag as i hadnt had sex in ages"

This doesn't imply a sexual motive ?

Stark · 31-07-2004 4:59pm

16 year olds lie. What they really meant was "We fancied ruining a girls life for the power trip and to show off to each other". They could all have been gay for the difference it would have made to their decision.

beer enigma · 31-07-2004 5:00pm

He also has 35 previous convictions, 10 of them for sex offences.....

Silent Grape · 31-07-2004 5:03pm

generally people who fancy a shag go out looking for girls to proposition, they dont rape anybody.

he was covering up. hes 16, he's not going to be honest about it. they may come across cocky, confident, dont give a **** attitute, but really they dont have a clue whats going on, and sex was probably the last thing on their minds at the time

the_syco · 31-07-2004 5:12pm

Castration is not the cure, but the deterrant.

4 years, and they're back out. Some even do it again.

If castration will happen, less may go through with the act.

Many see it as punishment, but if losing your balls doesn't deter you, time in prison sure as hell won't.

chewy · 31-07-2004 5:14pm

a 16 year old with 35 previous convictions and 10 sexual ones? what was this guy up to?

castrastion is stupid and dangerous idea!

Silent Grape · 31-07-2004 5:21pm

i agree that it may serve as a good deterrant, it will stop a man forcibly penetrating with his penis, but as already pointed out, there are many other means to sexually assault a person. and it wont stop the underlining dangerous thinking. its barbaric to mutilate a persons body like that. treating the whole thing as a revenge thing - give the perpertrator as much hell as he's given him victim- is not the positive way of looking at it, because there is no reliable way of judging that.

i have no idea what the answer is, the end result is to let an adjusted, safe thinking person back into society, and castration is sure as hell not going to do that.

Sand · 31-07-2004 7:17pm

Hard to have an opinion as Ive no real idea what motivated those lads to do that. Id imagine there must have been some sexual undertone to it, because if it was simply a power trip then there a variety of other ways to "show off".

Castration might serve as a pretty severe detterent and more importantly it would satisfy the publics needs to see justice being done to retain confidence in the legal system - which is at an all time low these days. The fact that this guy had so many previous convictions just underlines just how broken law enforcement is in this country, and why people dont waste their time bringing charges to court - why bother? If hed been clipped the first time theres a chance the other 9 sex assaults plus this rape wouldnt have happened.

But on the other hand, what happens when an innocent guy gets convicted based on a spiteful testimony or plain bad police work? Maybe a 3 strikes and youre out to eliminate the unlucky?

AngelofFire · 31-07-2004 7:29pm

No not a good idea. If the authorities demonstrate a mafia style mutilation as a force of reason, draconian and violent solutions to problems will filter down into all aspects of society.

As Mahatma Ghandi said "an eye for an eye makes society blind"

beer enigma · 31-07-2004 11:42pm

Ok, so I admit to not knowing the answer here - castration is used in many countries world wide as a deterrant but perhaps its not the best way. I do disagree with those who think that rape is not related to sexual desire when there is so much evidence/history pointing to the fact.

This case may well have been a 'spur of the moment' action, but none the less, sexually driven once the decision has been made.

I guess it goes down to how far we as a society are willing to go in relation to stamping out this type of crime...

Syth · 01-08-2004 12:25am

I don't think convicted rapists should be castrated. I don't think it's a good
detterent. Look at the deterent we have now. Look at the social stigma a rapist
has. Some say that out society encourages rape, but try going into a bar and
proudly announcing that you are a rapist. See if you are encouraged. As for the
revictism argument, it don't think it will work. Many have already mentioned
that it's possibe to still sexually assault somone even if the little general
is dead. Also should we now start cutting of the hands of thieves? Should we
break the spines of murders to make sure they can't kill again? Should we make
blind anyone who knocked a person donw in a car, so thay can't drive again? No.

As for the whole 'rape is nothing to do with sex' argument, I think that is
false. consider these 2 simple facts:
o Men will do lots of things to have sex. Many, many men are willing to chase
(figurativly) after women to have sex, heck, sme are even willing to pay for
sex. Many men really wan tsex.
o There are some men who are willing to use violence to get what they want.
Whether it is some cash or a flash phone, there are men who are willing to use
violence to get what they want.
Thus it seems obvious that there will be a small amount of men who are willing to use violence to get sex, ie willing to rape.

Also there are cases where a man and a woman are "gettin' it on", and the woman
doesn't want it to go that far, she wants to stop. Most men would stop, a tiny
amout wouldn't and whould then rape the woman. If the 'rape is nothing to do
with sex' argument was true, then the man would change from thinking about sex
just before the woman wanted to stop (actually it's probably all he can think
about), and then suddenly, not be thinking about sex. Most of the men out there
will tell you that that kind of switch doesn't happen.

Silent Grape · 01-08-2004 1:31am

rape is fundamentally about power. it has very little to do with sexual desire. its the fundamental power problem that a rapist has which makes him the kind of person to keep going once the other person has said no.

there are other power crimes aswell, such as random beatings etc. its the need to know that someone is scared of you, it doesnt have to be violent, think of the bullying that goes on in schools etc. not to be too generlised, but the thought process that occurs within these people that is the problem, not their organs.

most men want to have sex, not all of them rape,
most people need extra cash, not all of them beat old people to a pulp to get it.

it would be completely hypocritical and animalistic to use such a barbaric method of 'deterrance'. it would also lower our society to their standards.

perpetrator/victim meetings are a start when it comes to changing the mindset of such people.

Syth · 01-08-2004 1:52am

Steven Pinker's 'The Blank Slate' is a book which advocated the nature side of much of humanity. One topic he talks about is rape, he supports the 'rape is about sex' theory. It's a good read.

rape is fundamentally about power. it has very little to do with sexual desire.

can you back that up? What about the little argument I gave? Just because not all men rape even though nearly all want sex, doesn't mean that those that do rape don't do it for sex. After all there are many people who wouldn't steal to get money, yet some people steal, and I'm sure there exist people who steal to get money, liekwise some men rape for sex. (It's probably not conscience, but it's like instinct.)

Out of curiousity, does anyone knwo if any state does castrate rapists and if so what is their rape rates like?

Specky · 01-08-2004 4:30pm

Out of curiousity, does anyone knwo if any state does castrate rapists and if so what is their rape rates like?

...and even more curiously, what do they do with the "bits"? Make tiny furry handbags perhaps.....

rape is fundamentally about power. it has very little to do with sexual desire.

Here we go with the "black and white" argument again. That's not true. In some cases it's about power, in some cases it's about sex, in some cases it's about other things altogether.

Most things are more complex than a cursory generalisation is able to summarize. Masturbation, for instance is self abuse and self gratification both at the same time.

Silent Grape · 01-08-2004 7:39pm

thats why i said 'fundamentally', of course there are other issues at play, nothing is ever black and white. i argued with myself for months that i hadnt been raped, and eventually gave in to the fact that i had been. the lines may have appeared blurred (to him) but it was still rape.

its like there's a switch in their brain which doesnt click when they're faced with a boundary. people like this also may also have been bullies and generally use intimidation to get what they want. what im saying is that it doesnt end with a need for sex, nor does it begin with sex being the issue. sex is just another thing they feel they have to have power over.

the instinct argument is bollocks. people have free thought. people know what is right and wrong. of course conscience comes into it, but these people just ignore their consciencess', or make up an excuse for doing it 'she was drunk and moaning so i thought she wanted me to go on' - yeh, it was really my instinct.

Specky · 01-08-2004 8:22pm

'she was drunk and moaning

...sounds like my wife...

but seriously...

its like there's a switch in their brain which doesnt click when they're faced with a boundary.

As with any form of crime/boundary crossing behaviour, there is a process of self justification which removes the validity of any counter-argument or pre-learned rules, but it is extremely difficult to understand "why" some people feel able to cross such a boundary.

Crime prevention through understanding of perpetrator motivation has failed completely (progressive crime prevention theorists consider removal of opportunity a more valid means of reducing crime but this is often not a realistic proposition in the case of rape where the majority of crimes are committed by people known to the victim in circumstances where barriers to opportunity are less easy to establish). The result is the thinking that to prevent a criminal re-committing a crime you put them in prison. I suppose that a similar argument could be given in favour of castration. No danglers, no hanky panky....but do we not take the same chance we do with any form of corporal/capitol punishment? What if we got the wrong person? Mistakes cannot be fixed.

This is, of course, no comfort for victims (or victims of the future who fall prey to repeat offenders, which crimes could have been prevented if the offender had originally been removed of his fluffy bits). I see the validity of the argument for nut removal but I'd be hard pressed to agree with it's implementation as there have been too many judicial mistakes and wrongful convictions in the past...and yes, I know there have also been too many rapists who have gotten away scott free, but people get away with stuff for very bad reasons all the time. One might point out a certain high court judge for instance....

Silent Grape · 01-08-2004 9:09pm

i agree with u specky, you make a lot of sense.
the reason i used the 'she was drunk and moaning' thing, was that my rapist tried to justify his actions with that line. he left out the other things i was doing/saying at the time, obviously.

i was also subject to a charity worker, not naming names, obviously, who molested me in my car. i wouldnt be in favour of chopping off his fingers, as much as i probably wouldve enjoyed it at the time, because it wudnt stop him from attacking again. the only thing that would stop him would be to put him in prison and make it so horrible he'd never dare commit again.

locking up - only way, in my opinion, for a lot longer than the standard 10 years or whatever it is.

Syth · 02-08-2004 7:25pm

..and even more curiously, what do they do with the "bits"? Make tiny furry handbags perhaps.....

Maybe they let them take them home in a jar?

beer enigma · 02-08-2004 7:59pm

Silent Grape wrote:

rape is fundamentally about power. it has very little to do with sexual desire. its the fundamental power problem that a rapist has which makes him the kind of person to keep going once the other person has said no.

..... not to be too generlised, but the thought process that occurs within these people that is the problem, not their organs.

Castration is not designed to be a mutilation in revenge for the act of rape - the effect of castration is to stop the production of male endorphins (I may have the spelling wrong here) and in effect take away the sexual power thinking of the brain. Same methodology used with livestock. In order to placate aggressive animals, castration is commonplace.

Interestingly enough, castration is practiced in many states in the USA that are in total opposition to capitol punishment

Specky · 02-08-2004 8:04pm

Maybe they let them take them home in a jar?

just be careful not to keep them next to the pickled onions in the fridge.

sliabh · 03-08-2004 10:17am

Andip wrote:

Interestingly enough, castration is practiced in many states in the USA that are in total opposition to capitol punishment

I believe that is chemical castration. It's reversible. Something that is extremely important if you convict the wrong person.

And I think it may be voluntary. You get a reduced sentence or it is done as part of a treatment program.

Should convicted rapists be castrated

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