The future of the Bray-Greystones line

Sam Russell · 30-05-2019 9:05am

SeanW wrote: »

I'd imagine there are few people trying to make such a journey by public transport. I don't use that service because I don't be down that way, but I imagine most of the few people who still do use the service would prefer direct trains to have a better timetable for journeys they don't normally make. Most IC railway journeys are to the main cities, not from them.

Well, of course, if there are no trains then there are no passengers. They introduced such a service from Heuston to Limerick (change at Limerick Junction).

GerardKeating · 30-05-2019 9:14am

Thrashssacre wrote: »

I don’t get some people’s obsession with terminating Wexford trains at bray and not thinking it would kill the service, yes people change in other countries but they certainly don’t get off an intercity train 20kms outside he city there going to and get on a rapid transit system honestly it’s a laughable suggestion.

Most Limerick passengers have to change at Limnerick Junction (or Ballybrophy) and yet people use the service.

Lord Glentoran · 30-05-2019 11:03am

GerardKeating wrote: »

Most Limerick passengers have to change at Limnerick Junction (or Ballybrophy) and yet people use the service.

Limerick passengers go non-stop from the Junction. Ballybrophy is more about the North Tipp towns on the way.

DART trains stop at Shankill, Killiney, Dalkey, Glenageary, Sandycove and Glasthule, Dun Laoighaire, Salthill and Monkstown, Seapoint, Blackrock, Booterstown, Sydney Parade, Sandymount, Lansdowne Road, Grand Canal Dock, Pearse, Tara Street, and eventually, Dublin Connolly.

Can you imagine Virgin Trains chucking all their passengers out at Watford Junction and telling them to get the London Overground stopping trains to get to Euston? SNCF and Eurotunnel chucking everyone out at St-Denis and told to make their own way into Gare du Nord?

It doesn’t take rocket science or massive pages of code to deduce what Co Wexford passengers would do in that scenario.

recedite · 30-05-2019 11:13am

SeanW wrote: »

It is a disgrace that there is no morning arrival in Wexford from Dublin.

I'd imagine there are few people trying to make such a journey by public transport.

I doubt there is much of a market for Dublin-Wexford early morning train.
Even the Wexford-Dublin train is of questionable priority, despite it being full.
A couple of examples of random people I have met on rush hour trains..
1. Retirees going to up to Dublin for the day on a shopping trip. Arrive early; get the whole day there.
2.Skangers returning to Coolock/Kilbarrack mid-week having got a bleedin brilliant cheap hotel deal in Wexford. Had to get the early train to be back in time to sign on though.
3. Majority of passengers being commuters getting on at Greystones and Bray because its a faster train than the Dart, with less stops.
But what good is a train that is 10 mins quicker when you have had to wait an extra half an hour because of it?

Sam Russell · 30-05-2019 2:12pm

recedite wrote: »

I doubt there is much of a market for Dublin-Wexford early morning train.
Even the Wexford-Dublin train is of questionable priority, despite it being full.
A couple of examples of random people I have met on rush hour trains..
1. Retirees going to up to Dublin for the day on a shopping trip. Arrive early; get the whole day there.
2.Skangers returning to Coolock/Kilbarrack mid-week having got a bleedin brilliant cheap hotel deal in Wexford. Had to get the early train to be back in time to sign on though.
3. Majority of passengers being commuters getting on at Greystones and Bray because its a faster train than the Dart, with less stops.
But what good is a train that is 10 mins quicker when you have had to wait an extra half an hour because of it?

I have asked a few times already.

Are there any figures for the number of passengers travellin from Wexford to Dublin?

From above:

I doubt there is much of a market for Dublin-Wexford early morning train.

What is this based on? There are no trains going from Bray to Wexford in the early morning, or at anytime in the morning, so how can you assess how many passengers would use it?

On a different point, there is no reason why the Dart train that would connect with the Wexford train would have a different stopping pattern to the train it replaces. That is a matter for the creator of the timetable.

They should try it as a temporary measure, on maybe one or two trains, and see what happens. Of course it would need promotion so potential passengers know about it.

end of the road · 30-05-2019 2:21pm

GerardKeating wrote: »

Most Limerick passengers have to change at Limnerick Junction (or Ballybrophy) and yet people use the service.

again, they are changing to a limited stop, sort of high speed service. so it's not a valid comparison, nor does it actually answer his question. someone having to do something isn't justification for others to have to do something, so you will need to do better.
some comparisons with the changing at bray idea suggested for the rosslare line would be.
1. throwing everyone out at killdare and sending everyone in on the suburban service to dublin.
2. throwing everyone off coaches out in areas outside the city such as swords and sending them on dublin bus to continue their journey.

end of the road · 30-05-2019 2:33pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

I have asked a few times already.

Are there any figures for the number of passengers travellin from Wexford to Dublin?

From above:

What is this based on? There are no trains going from Bray to Wexford in the early morning, or at anytime in the morning, so how can you assess how many passengers would use it?

there is a morning train, around 9.30 i believe. it gets to wexford around the after noon, but ultimately it still leaves dublin in the morning and is mostly traveling throughout the morning.

Sam Russell wrote: »

On a different point, there is no reason why the Dart train that would connect with the Wexford train would have a different stopping pattern to the train it replaces. That is a matter for the creator of the timetable.

there is every reason. that dart will be capacity lost from the stops in between. not going to happen.

Sam Russell wrote: »

They should try it as a temporary measure, on maybe one or two trains, and see what happens. Of course it would need promotion so potential passengers know about it.

they shouldn't as we already know what will happen. it's change for change sake and the idea of a limited stop dart to compensate when a diesel could continue to do it just confirms it. a diesel that is going back to dublin anyway as IE are not going to stop interworking units between services.

Sam Russell · 30-05-2019 2:42pm

end of the road wrote: »

there is a morning train, around 9.30 i believe. it gets to wexford around the after noon, but ultimately it still leaves dublin in the morning and is mostly traveling throughout the morning.

So if I am going down to Wexford on business, I can forget the morning.

there is every reason. that dart will be capacity lost from the stops in between. not going to happen.

No, the replacement will be an extra service, replacing the diesel.

they shouldn't as we already know what will happen. it's change for change sake and the idea of a limited stop dart to compensate when a diesel could continue to do it just confirms it. a diesel that is going back to dublin anyway as IE are not going to stop interworking units between services.

Well, the trains going to Dublin anyway can continue, but the idea is to improve the level of service for passengers wanting to get to Wexford in the morning. Until they try it, they will not know ho successful it will be. I suppose they could ask you as you do seem to have a unique handle on the matter.

The Wexford line south of Greystones in under threat. It needs some new initiative.

bk · 30-05-2019 2:45pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Are there any figures for the number of passengers travellin from Wexford to Dublin?

124 people per day!

Based on the 2017 rail census and note that is boarded at Wexford, you can't say that they are all going to Dublin, but probably safe to say so.

marno21 · 30-05-2019 2:54pm

Irish Rail have a limited amount of rolling stock and were they to acquire new rolling stock and make a list of where that stock can be best used, an early morning Dublin-Wexford service would likely be nowhere near the top of the list of the most deserving routes to allocate stock to.

The fact that there is no service from Dublin to Cork that arrives in Cork before 9am should be a good indicator of the likelihood of an early morning Wexford service launching.

end of the road · 30-05-2019 2:57pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

So if I am going down to Wexford on business, I can forget the morning.

No, the replacement will be an extra service, replacing the diesel.

so an even bigger waste of the time of the passengers of the rosslare line. an extra service the diesel can continue to do.

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, the trains going to Dublin anyway can continue, but the idea is to improve the level of service for passengers wanting to get to Wexford in the morning. Until they try it, they will not know ho successful it will be. I suppose they could ask you as you do seem to have a unique handle on the matter.

they can if they wish, however i am not paid to do their job for them. it is up to them to look into it and put the service on.

Sam Russell wrote: »

The Wexford line south of Greystones in under threat. It needs some new initiative.

yes, but this particular 1 is not it.

Ireland trains · 30-05-2019 4:11pm

0.366 million passengers travelled on Dublin-Rosslare service in 2018 although i am fairly certain that Dublin-wiklow are not included.

bk · 30-05-2019 4:30pm

Ireland trains wrote: »

0.366 million passengers travelled on Dublin-Rosslare service in 2018 although i am fairly certain that Dublin-wiklow are not included.

Or to put it another way just 366,000 people or just over 1,000 people a day!

But that looks like it includes Greystones, South of Greystones, just 682 people boarded on rail census day.

Sam Russell · 30-05-2019 4:43pm

bk wrote: »

Or to put it another way just 366,000 people or just over 1,000 people a day!

But that looks like it includes Greystones, South of Greystones, just 682 people boarded on rail census day.

682 per day on 5 services or is it 10 services) is not a lot. If it includes going and coming, then that is one bus load in each direction.

bk · 30-05-2019 5:00pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

682 per day on 5 services or is it 10 services) is not a lot. If it includes going and coming, then that is one bus load in each direction.

One way, people who boarded at stations south of Greystones.

Sam Russell · 30-05-2019 6:41pm

bk wrote: »

One way, people who boarded at stations south of Greystones.

Do you mean 682 passengers travelled north bound, or 341 travelled north and 341 travelled south?

bk · 30-05-2019 6:54pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Do you mean 682 passengers travelled north bound, or 341 travelled north and 341 travelled south?

682 passengers boarded north bound.

CatInABox · 06-07-2019 3:52pm

bk wrote: »

682 passengers boarded north bound.

The 2018 census had been released, and there was now a massive 699 that boarded northbound!

Overall though, there was a drop in usage on the Rosslare to Dundalk service of 8%, while Dundalk to Rosslare service suffered a 5% drop. All other lines into Dublin had an increase in usage.

The status quo is killing the South Eastern line.

Rulmeq · 06-07-2019 4:58pm

CatInABox wrote: »

The 2018 census had been released, and there was now a massive 699 that boarded northbound!

Do you have a link?

CatInABox · 06-07-2019 5:45pm

Rulmeq wrote: »

Do you have a link?

Devnull put it up in the commuting and transport forum, but here's a link

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/National_Heavy_Rail_2019_FA_ONLINE.pdf

loyatemu · 08-07-2019 12:18pm

50% of those 699 were Wicklow and Kilcoole. Demand south of Wicklow is very poor (because the bus is quicker and more frequent).

AAAAAAAAA · 23-09-2019 4:37pm

loyatemu wrote: »

my comment up the page discusses this - I looked at tunnelling costs online, most are for metro systems so not applicable. The 40km rail tunnel under the alps cost about €250m per km. It's apparently not much more expensive to bore a twin-track tunnel than a single-track.

Dodgy examples you've got there mate. The base tunnels have far higher safety requirements due to their length than a bog standard short-ish tunnel. The European Union did a study on the cost of tunneling using a number of recent examples across Europe.

https://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/sources/docgener/studies/pdf/assess_unit_cost_rail/annex_13_case_study_tunneling.pdf

The average unit costs (€) related to difference in construction method and tunnel sections are reported in the following figure.:

| Tunnel section |
|Single-track Tunnel | Double-track Tunnel
Conventional | 24 | 28
TBM | 25 | n. a.
Cut & Cover | n. a. | 11

It needs to be considered that such results are strongly dependent on the selected cases investigated. Other studies as the one carried out by the British Tunnelling Society, which conducted a specific study only encompassing tunnels in order to compare costs between Europe and UK, suggest a figure around £40m/km

The analysis shows that for conventional tunnelling, the average unit cost of single-track tunnels is approximately 20% lower than average cost of a double track tunnels, within the sample analysed, due to a significant reduction in digging volume, concrete coating volume, and working time.

The report also outlines that having a good quality of rock mass (i.e., strong, dense) reduces the cost overall as you need to pump less grout and rock bolts in to keep it all together - and guess what, Bray head is great rock.

In summary, we're looking at maybe €80 million or so, even with an extra 20% because we're Ireland

loyatemu · 23-09-2019 4:45pm

AAAAAAAAA wrote: »

Dodgy examples you've got there mate. The base tunnels have far higher safety requirements due to their length than a bog standard short-ish tunnel. The European Union did a study on the cost of tunneling using a number of recent examples across Europe.

https://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/sources/docgener/studies/pdf/assess_unit_cost_rail/annex_13_case_study_tunneling.pdf

In summary, we're looking at maybe €80 million or so.

fair enough buddy - say €100-150m given inflation and the generally higher cost of construction in Ireland. I still don't expect to see it happen in my lifetime.

AAAAAAAAA · 23-09-2019 5:04pm

loyatemu wrote: »

fair enough buddy - say €100-150m given inflation and the generally higher cost of construction in Ireland. I still don't expect to see it happen in my lifetime.

It would be an unprecedented act of thinking ahead, yeah. However, the sea will continue to eat the cliff and eventually the track will have to be cut back into the rock. We'll also have to keep up with rock netting and other stabilisation works above the track, that alone probably costing more than the price of a tunnel though Bray head that will last us hundreds of years. It's not cheap to maintain the existing track, medium to long term. I doubt there's another example like it in Western Europe, it's a disaster waiting to happen.

Oasis_Dublin · 24-09-2019 8:09pm

A recent mover from (south) Dublin to Wexford. Still do most of my work in Dublin.

A few things.

As has been pointed out, the fact that no rail service arrives in Wexford Town from Dublin is mind-boggling. Even worse, the latest departure time from Dublin is 630 :-/

I see both sides of the argument, in terms of stopping at Bray. It is handy to be able to go through these stations, as the current service does. But if it meant an early morning service to Wexford (and the intermediary stops), then I think it's very much worth a trial.

Similarly, if it meant being able to do work in Dublin beyond essentially 6PM, then it should certainly be trialled. Politicians in Wicklow and Wexford should be pushing for this, especially in an era whereby more environmentally friendly transport is in vogue with the public.

Instead, we see numpties like Stephen "vote me in as an alternative to Fianna Fáil" Donnelly pushing for the introduction of more lanes on the N11. Did anyone travel on the N7 while the works were going on? It was a disaster.

I recently drove up to Dublin using the new Enniscorthy bypass. Even leaving at 6am, and getting to Bray south for about 6:55 am, there was already a build-up of traffic there. So there has to be other ways of getting people from big towns (Arklow, Gorey, Enniscorthy, Wexford) to Dublin rather than just depending on cars.

Medium term, there surely has to be ambition to double the line, even as far as Wicklow Town? That would take time off the journey, and allow for increased capacity. Again, is there the political will to do it?

There's a by-election coming up in Wexford, hopefully discussions around the railway will take place.

Del.Monte · 24-09-2019 8:33pm

Any discussion about the railway by politicians in Wexford will be less than useless as they are generally clueless about such things. Anyway, keeping the railway south of Gorey is the immediate problem.

Oasis_Dublin · 24-09-2019 9:49pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

Any discussion about the railway by politicians in Wexford will be less than useless as they are generally clueless about such things. Anyway, keeping the railway south of Gorey is the immediate problem.

Indeed. Surely a topic of discussion (one of many), considering how much it has been talked about recently, in the upcoming by-election?

Drifter50 · 24-09-2019 9:58pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

Any discussion about the railway by politicians in Wexford will be less than useless as they are generally clueless about such things. Anyway, keeping the railway south of Gorey is the immediate problem.

Yes, spot on, I`m not sure if we will have an operating railway south of Greystones soon. People deserting this service in favour of Expressway/Wexford Bus etc

u140acro3xs7dm · 25-09-2019 9:16am

Drifter50 wrote: »

Yes, spot on, I`m not sure if we will have an operating railway south of Greystones soon. People deserting this service in favour of Expressway/Wexford Bus etc

Mainly due to overcrowding and a poor timetable. The trains get used as an alternative Dart from Greystones onwards,and in the evenings you have to get on at Connolly to guarantee a seat. There are also only 2 trains in the morning, 3 in the evening.

The bus is getting stuck in the same traffic as the cars. With Wexford Bus, the first 740a out of Gorey is too late, as it hits Kilpedder at 7am - this serves Arklow town and Wicklow Town along the way. Bus Eireann's 133 is a nightmare, the number 2 is quicker, but the last pickup is Arklow, so Wicklow, Ashford, rathnew etc. have to get Wexford Bus or the dreadful 133.

AAAAAAAAA · 25-09-2019 10:59am

The bus is just a far superior option to the train for most commuters in Gorey and Arklow, even with the pain that is traffic and having to wait for all the passengers to slowly load on that causes the bulk of delay. The fact that the commuter can get buses essentially every hour in either direction until midnight means that a person has actual flexibility, rather than being "stranded" if they miss the last train home at 18.35

The future of the Bray-Greystones line

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