[Fighting leprechaun 20]

Originally Posted by mzungu

A Scottish influence is there alright. Interesting piece about it here:

But again as l said the dublin accent is more unique and no one would consider them different than the rest of ireland . The cork and galway accent are probably the original accents spoken here before english and scottish plantations/invasion .

[recedite]

If the original language of Dublin was Norse, and there were other languages along the east coast, then you would expect different regions to have different accents when speaking modern English.
I don't think there is any one "original" Irish accent.

Also bear in mind that the "original" inhabitants of Ireland didn't speak Irish anyway. If you could travel back in time to when Newgrange was in its heyday, there would be no point trying to communicate with the locals as gaeilge. They would consider that to be a foreign language. They might guess (correctly) that it was some sort of central european celtic language.

[Fighting leprechaun 20]

Originally Posted by recedite

If the original language of Dublin was Norse, and there were other languages along the east coast, then you would expect different regions to have different accents when speaking modern English.
I don't think there is any one "original" Irish accent.

Also bear in mind that the "original" inhabitants of Ireland didn't speak Irish anyway. If you could travel back in time to when Newgrange was in its heyday, there would be no point trying to communicate with the locals as gaeilge. They would consider that to be a foreign language. They might guess (correctly) that it was some sort of central european celtic language.

Funny enough lve had a debate on this before l do not believe the norse established dublin it existed before they came here in a way they just expanded it into a city . The romans called dublin Eblana it was probably a trade hub settlement .

Even the neolithic and mesolithic people are not the original people of this island . What l meant was cork and galway accent are the orginal geal accents on this island before the scots english norse & normans .Yola language is interesting alright .

My point is theres nothing that makes The so called northern irish unique enough to be considered their own thing . Not along enough history to develop a different culture,most northern irish culture republican and even loyalist cultures are just irish stuff repackaged . For example the red hand the loyalist seem to love is ironically an ancient irish symbol that existed long before they did . What really defines the northern irish and sets them apart from the rest of ireland ?

Most of the irish in northern ireland have family across the border and are near culturally identical if not completely. The undemocratic partition of that part of Ireland was/is gross & silly .

The existence of the northern irish is simply modern politics.

[please helpThank YOU]

Originally Posted by Herb Powell

Was talking with someone a few months ago who reckoned Northern Ireland is closer to Scotland than the rest of Ireland, as that particular brand of Presbyterianism (thinking of Calvin, Knox, etc) is really rooted there. Luther is credited with planting the seeds of the reformation, but if you think about it the real driving force behind protestantism as a whole was these Scottish reformers. It's on a whole other level to anything going on down here.

Of course, to say that this sums up Northern Ireland as a culture is ignoring a lot, but it is an important part of the region's history and to deny its impact would also be wrong.

Really interesting discussion, and I think OP is being dismissed to easily by plenty on here who just want some easy internet points.

Scottish Planters in Ulster but we had the also had the English Plantation of Munster so are People in Munster English our Irish?

[recedite]

Originally Posted by Fighting leprechaun 20

l do not believe the norse established dublin it existed before they came here in a way they just expanded it into a city . The romans called dublin Eblana it was probably a trade hub settlement .

Interesting idea, but there's a few problems with that theory, as described here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eblana
With Newgrange and Tara both situated in the general area, there must have been a well established community around there during Roman times, but probably not all living in a town. So the "trading hub" could have been anywhere.

[Fighting leprechaun 20]

Originally Posted by please helpThank YOU

Scottish Planters in Ulster but we had the also had the English Plantation of Munster so are People in Munster English our Irish?

The english plantations of munster never actually successful they were massive failure, ironically it was the scots who truly conquered ireland & subjugated the population to long lasting British rule. not the english. The english never really had any control over ireland just in theory but not reality .

Also l never claimed people from ulster were scottish so l dont know why you are asking me that .

[Fighting leprechaun 20]

Originally Posted by recedite

Interesting idea, but there's a few problems with that theory, as described here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eblana
With Newgrange and Tara both situated in the general area, there must have been a well established community around there during Roman times, but probably not all living in a town. So the "trading hub" could have been anywhere.

Well aware of the criticism put agasnt this theory but Claudius Ptolemaeus pins a major Irish settlement Elbana where dublin is located now .

Also while we are on the topic is there any evidence newgrange was still actively being used during 100AD? Surely it was abounded and covered in rush grass and dirt .

At any rate dublin existed before the vikings just not in its current state of course . Interesting theory is that dublin merged with the irish settlement of Áth Cliath . The name of dublin does not appear to be of norse origin dubh meaning black (so dublin is black pool) it seems to have old irish roots in its terminology.

[please helpThank YOU]

Originally Posted by Fighting leprechaun 20

The english plantations of munster never actually successful they were massive failure, ironically it was the scots who truly conquered ireland & subjugated the population to long lasting British rule. not the english. The english never really had any control over ireland just in theory but not reality .

Also l never claimed people from ulster were scottish so l dont know why you are asking me that .

Just Look at all the English Surnames in Cork City Limerick City Waterford City and then you had the Pale Dublin City the English left there mark in all Four Cities .

[Fighting leprechaun 20]

Originally Posted by please helpThank YOU

Just Look at all the English Surnames in Cork City Limerick City Waterford City and then you had the Pale Dublin City the English left there mark in all Four Cities .

The pale is the only part of ireland the english controlled and even there they didnt have full grasp of power on the region . Surnames are not great indicators of anything tbh they also are probably norman influenced not english . Many normans them selfs became more irish than even the irish . Yes the british(english) left negative political marks on ireland but idk about the rest .

[please helpThank YOU]

Originally Posted by Fighting leprechaun 20

The pale is the only part of ireland the english controlled and even there they didnt have full grasp of power on the region . Surnames are not great indicators of anything tbh they also are probably norman influenced not english . Many normans them selfs became more irish than even the irish . Yes the british(english) left negative political marks on ireland but idk about the rest .

The English
Controlled all Four Cities Most of them Still Look More English Today Than Irish . Galway is the Only Irish City that Looks More Irish .

[Fighting leprechaun 20]

Originally Posted by please helpThank YOU

The English
Controlled all Four Cities Most of them Still Look More English Today Than Irish . Galway is the Only Irish City that Looks More Irish .

How do they look more english ?

[please helpThank YOU]

Originally Posted by Fighting leprechaun 20

How do they look more english ?

Like Limerick City for One Example 1194 the English Captured Limerick You Have King Johns Castle St Mary Cathedral English Settlers Came To Limerick City you have Kings Island In English Town New town Perry 1760 that is all of Limerick IS English that Just One of the Cities.

[Avatar MIA]

Originally Posted by please helpThank YOU

Galway is the Only Irish City that Looks More Irish .

If by more Irish, you mean Spanish

Originally Posted by please helpThank YOU

Like Limerick City for One Example 1194 the English Captured Limerick You Have King Johns Castle St Mary Cathedral English Settlers Came To Limerick City you have Kings Island In English Town New town Perry 1760 that is all of Limerick IS English that Just One of the Cities.

You're talking about the social elite, that kept very much to themselves. While I'm sure there was the odd indiscretion as it it were, to say Limerick people look more English than, say, a Mayo farmer, is ludicrous.

And genuine question - Is English your first language?

[recedite]

Originally Posted by Fighting leprechaun 20

Also while we are on the topic is there any evidence newgrange was still actively being used during 100AD? Surely it was abounded and covered in rush grass and dirt .

I think the emphasis would have switched to Tara by then, but just pointing out that the whole area was continuously inhabited and seen as a central gathering point over a very long period of time. As opposed to Dublin itself.

Originally Posted by Fighting leprechaun 20

At any rate dublin existed before the vikings just not in its current state of course . Interesting theory is that dublin merged with the irish settlement of Áth Cliath . The name of dublin does not appear to be of norse origin dubh meaning black (so dublin is black pool) it seems to have old irish roots in its terminology.

Yes, but the Vikings also adapted pre-existing local placenames when founding a new town. For example Wicklow town is of Norse origin, but there was probably a few people already living in a minor agricultural settlement or clachan around the river estuary. The name of this estuary (inbhearr dee) was adapted/corrupted into Norse to be the name of the river itself (Vartry) while the new town got its own Norse name.

So the new town would be founded at a place of strategic importance to them, ie a safe harbour or river estuary suitable for docking longships. Whereas any existing inhabitants might have been just cattle farming in the area, and would probably have moved on.

[please helpThank YOU]

Originally Posted by Avatar MIA

If by more Irish, you mean Spanish




You're talking about the social elite, that kept very much to themselves. While I'm sure there was the odd indiscretion as it it were, to say Limerick people look more English than, say, a Mayo farmer, is ludicrous.

And genuine question - Is English your first language?

Limerick ,Cork Waterford, Dublin Pale and Muster Plantation Would be More English than Mayo. and then you had the Vikings Limerick ,Cork Dublin,Waterford,. And in the 12th Century you had the Norman Invasion of Ireland Dublin, Waterford, Cork, Limerick , So of Parts of Ireland Would Be More English Than Even Northern Ireland The are More Scottish.