Spring 2020..... 1.5m Dairy calves.... discuss.

K.G. · 17-10-2019 3:03pm

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

What exactly has the suckler cow/calf got to do with slaughtering newborn calves KG?

Merely pointing out that economic s have gone clesn out the window with along time in the beef game.

Injuryprone · 17-10-2019 4:57pm

I personally think that a good first step would be to have marts allow negative bidding. It wouldn't be long waking fellas up if their calves were sold for -€100.

tanko · 17-10-2019 5:18pm

K.G. wrote: »

Merely pointing out that economic s have gone clesn out the window with along time in the beef game.

The abolition of milk quotas has fcuked up the beef game.
It will be interesting to see how the economics of white gold production stack up in the coming years.

farawaygrass · 17-10-2019 5:36pm

Injuryprone wrote: »

I personally think that a good first step would be to have marts allow negative bidding. It wouldn't be long waking fellas up if their calves were sold for -€100.

I was just about to post roughly the same. Why does every dairy farmer expect to be paid for the calf when there is obviously a problem? There shouldn’t be an issue paying 50-100 euro to pay a man to buy jex calves, after all isn’t the cow paying her way more that a British friesian (and the farmer would be paid for them calves). I don’t like knocking any farmer or sector as everyone is trying their best at the end of the day, but sone dairy farmers want their cake and eat it too

Base price · 17-10-2019 6:00pm

_Brian wrote: »

If we get to treating a million animals a year as a byproduct and don’t care what happens them we are loosing our farming ethos to factory farming and I’d rather see the country planted end to end.

Male chicks (a byproduct of the egg industry) are culled after hatching by the hundreds of thousands every day. The don't carry enough meat genetics and therefore they are not viable to feed on. Some dairy bull calves unfortunately fall into the same category. I should know as I've reared them from calves, feed them on to finish both as bulls and bullocks and it's not viable and that was before the beef prices collapsed.

What do people suggest should be done with the lesser quality dairy bull calf?
Edit - And don't say that beef prices need to rise to over €4/kg cause that ain't going to happen in the immediate future unless there is some sort of beef crises in the EU due to disease etc.

K.G. · 17-10-2019 6:01pm

farawaygrass wrote: »

I was just about to post roughly the same. Why does every dairy farmer expect to be paid for the calf when there is obviously a problem? There shouldn’t be an issue paying 50-100 euro to pay a man to buy jex calves, after all isn’t the cow paying her way more that a British friesian (and the farmer would be paid for them calves). I don’t like knocking any farmer or sector as everyone is trying their best at the end of the day, but sone dairy farmers want their cake and eat it too

But calves do remain insold already in marts and some are for 2 or 5 euro.any calf under 50 euro is already in negative territory .i posted a month ago in dairy chitchat.thread that.dairy.lads.should have a.plan for a difficult calf trade in 2019.just get on with it.i reckon a year.or 2 and things and things will settle .one time lads used to say calf sales.used to buy your fertilizer for tje year but that day is long gone.calf prices have already moved into negative territory in west.cork with along time

K.G. · 17-10-2019 6:06pm

tanko wrote: »

The abolition of milk quotas has fcuked up the beef game.
It will be interesting to see how the economics of white gold production stack up in the coming years.

Your opinion .many of us used to have a beef operation. The reason we dont is there is no money in it.no fortune in milking either but its a lot better than beef .

Gawddawggonnit · 17-10-2019 7:29pm

Base price wrote: »

Male chicks (a byproduct of the egg industry) are culled after hatching by the hundreds of thousands every day. The don't carry enough meat genetics and therefore they are not viable to feed on. Some dairy bull calves unfortunately fall into the same category. I should know as I've reared them from calves, feed them on to finish both as bulls and bullocks and it's not viable and that was before the beef prices collapsed.

What do people suggest should be done with the lesser quality dairy bull calf?
Edit - And don't say that beef prices need to rise to over €4/kg cause that ain't going to happen in the immediate future unless there is some sort of beef crises in the EU due to disease etc.

Male chicks don’t carry the same gravity as a male calf BP.
Apples and oranges.

I rear a few chickens in intensive houses. The reality of my system is that there’s no future for such systems...consumers have spoken with their wallets. Animal welfare is vital now.
My project for 2020 is to change to an outdoor setup.
Get with it or get out...

_Brian · 17-10-2019 7:34pm

Base price wrote: »

Male chicks (a byproduct of the egg industry) are culled after hatching by the hundreds of thousands every day. The don't carry enough meat genetics and therefore they are not viable to feed on. Some dairy bull calves unfortunately fall into the same category. I should know as I've reared them from calves, feed them on to finish both as bulls and bullocks and it's not viable and that was before the beef prices collapsed.

What do people suggest should be done with the lesser quality dairy bull calf?
Edit - And don't say that beef prices need to rise to over €4/kg cause that ain't going to happen in the immediate future unless there is some sort of beef crises in the EU due to disease etc.

I've seen the videos of the male chicks going into the shredders and its frankly disgusting to see and if it were outlawed in the morning (and i think it should) the industry would find a solution because it had to.

You're not going to hear me saying that beef prices should magically move above €4/kg, I've said previously that because of the massive overproduction in beef in Ireland there is no need to raise prices and indeed I see prices slipping again after 1st Nov. When you overproduce anything it looses its value.

There is an industry wide disconnect between production and market, a cohort have fallen for the Teagasc spin that to turn profitability in Beef you need big new sheds, increased numbers and of course increased efficiencies, the last bit is their get out so iof your not making money you must be inefficient.... no mention that they have pushed numbers beyond market requirments and so the price has collapsed.

I honestly don't know the solution for non viable calves is, but the bobby system isn't one that public snetiment will accept and we are handing the V&V extremists a very real branch to beat us with.

farawaygrass · 17-10-2019 7:38pm

Base price wrote: »

Male chicks (a byproduct of the egg industry) are culled after hatching by the hundreds of thousands every day. The don't carry enough meat genetics and therefore they are not viable to feed on. Some dairy bull calves unfortunately fall into the same category. I should know as I've reared them from calves, feed them on to finish both as bulls and bullocks and it's not viable and that was before the beef prices collapsed.

What do people suggest should be done with the lesser quality dairy bull calf?
Edit - And don't say that beef prices need to rise to over €4/kg cause that ain't going to happen in the immediate future unless there is some sort of beef crises in the EU due to disease etc.

Honest question here-if you have a jersey cow producing a very poor quality beef calf but is the most profitable type of milker or say a British friesian which would produce a very good, profitable cross for beef but not such a good milker, which is more profitable cow at the end of the day for the dairy farmer? Tbh if there was a very good supply of quality calves from the dairy sector I don’t have any Pity for suckler cow numbers reducing nationally and farmers rearing these calves instead. And btw im a (disgruntled) suckler and sheep farmer before anyone shoot me down

Base price · 17-10-2019 7:49pm

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Male chicks don’t carry the same gravity as a male calf BP.
Apples and oranges.

I rear a few chickens in intensive houses. The reality of my system is that there’s no future for such systems...consumers have spoken with their wallets. Animal welfare is vital now.
My project for 2020 is to change to an outdoor setup.
Get with it or get out...

Ah, now you are being species specific - "all animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others" :rolleyes:

An article about free range broiler production in Cavan or Monaghan popped up on my news feed this morning. I didn't have an opportunity to read it as a neighbour arrived looking for the loan of two cow trailer and the laptop had turned off by the time I got back to the house. Unfortunately I cannot find the article now but I think the name of the company was Darina or something similar.

Base price · 17-10-2019 8:07pm

_Brian wrote: »

I've seen the videos of the male chicks going into the shredders and its frankly disgusting to see and if it were outlawed in the morning (and i think it should) the industry would find a solution because it had to.

You're not going to hear me saying that beef prices should magically move above €4/kg, I've said previously that because of the massive overproduction in beef in Ireland there is no need to raise prices and indeed I see prices slipping again after 1st Nov. When you overproduce anything it looses its value.

There is an industry wide disconnect between production and market, a cohort have fallen for the Teagasc spin that to turn profitability in Beef you need big new sheds, increased numbers and of course increased efficiencies, the last bit is their get out so iof your not making money you must be inefficient.... no mention that they have pushed numbers beyond market requirments and so the price has collapsed.

I honestly don't know the solution for non viable calves is, but the bobby system isn't one that public snetiment will accept and we are handing the V&V extremists a very real branch to beat us with.

I agree 100% but we are where we are and we've been here for the last 18 to 20 years unknown'st to the majority of readers. The difference now is that the numbers of poor quality dairy bull calves have grown with the expanding dairy herd.

I don't know what the solution is either and sexed semen doesn't seem to be the answer.

Muckit · 17-10-2019 8:12pm

There's no easy answer that's for sure. And perhaps the real solution is hard to swallow.

That's why l thought its be a good topic for discussion in the first place.

wrangler · 17-10-2019 8:22pm

Muckit wrote: »

There's no easy answer that's for sure. And perhaps the real solution is hard to swallow.

That's why l thought its be a good topic for discussion in the first place.

IFJ have the figures up for their dairy beef project, as expected they lost their shirt again, calves have to be less than €100 and beef nearer to €4./kg.
Heifers were only housed for two months last winter and on grass after that......if they can't make money with a good winter like that they have no hope this year.

Base price · 17-10-2019 9:05pm

farawaygrass wrote: »

Honest question here-if you have a jersey cow producing a very poor quality beef calf but is the most profitable type of milker or say a British friesian which would produce a very good, profitable cross for beef but not such a good milker, which is more profitable cow at the end of the day for the dairy farmer? Tbh if there was a very good supply of quality calves from the dairy sector I don’t have any Pity for suckler cow numbers reducing nationally and farmers rearing these calves instead. And btw im a (disgruntled) suckler and sheep farmer before anyone shoot me down

I'm not a dairy farmer so I can't comment on the financials but I'm an ex suckler farmer (including pbr's) who quit them 12 years ago because of the costs.

As I've previously stated the dairy bull calf situation is relatively new.

In Ireland we used to milk SH type cows, progressed to pure FR (British) moved onto Holstein and some went onto JE/Kiwi. That is the way economic progression works whether we like it or not.

If I had my way all dairy breeds would be pure FR, Ayr and beef breeds would be HE, AA, SH including our native breeds from 1970's/80's genetics

I'm sure there is someone reading this who's family farm used to produce free range eggs/poultry & pigs for bacon/pork for their local community and their farm business was wiped out.

Buford T. Justice XIX · 17-10-2019 9:14pm

farawaygrass wrote: »

Honest question here-if you have a jersey cow producing a very poor quality beef calf but is the most profitable type of milker or say a British friesian which would produce a very good, profitable cross for beef but not such a good milker, which is more profitable cow at the end of the day for the dairy farmer? Tbh if there was a very good supply of quality calves from the dairy sector I don’t have any Pity for suckler cow numbers reducing nationally and farmers rearing these calves instead. And btw im a (disgruntled) suckler and sheep farmer before anyone shoot me down

I'm curious as to where lads think the suckler finished animal ends up? Too big for consumer plates and packaging, the only outlet is industrial and catering products, isn't it?

And the only beef getting a premium is AAx and HEx from those inferior dairy animals.

So when the JEx gets killed, he's going into the same end product as the apparently superior suckler animal.

This whole superior/inferior prejudice needs a bit of examining, folks.

whelan2 · 17-10-2019 9:19pm

Buford T. Justice VI wrote: »

I'm curious as to where lads think the suckler finished animal ends up? Too big for consumer plates and packaging, the only outlet is industrial and catering products, isn't it?

And the only beef getting a premium is AAx and HEx from those inferior dairy animals.

So when the JEx gets killed, he's going into the same end product as the apparently superior suckler animal.

This whole superior/inferior prejudice needs a bit of examining, folks.

It all ends up as mincemeat?

alps · 17-10-2019 9:20pm

Base price wrote: »

What do people suggest should be done with the lesser quality dairy bull calf?

Ban the bastards.....

Rats...

Vermin....

Hard Knocks · 17-10-2019 9:25pm

Buford T. Justice VI wrote: »

I'm curious as to where lads think the suckler finished animal ends up? Too big for consumer plates and packaging, the only outlet is industrial and catering products, isn't it?

And the only beef getting a premium is AAx and HEx from those inferior dairy animals.

So when the JEx gets killed, he's going into the same end product as the apparently superior suckler animal.

This whole superior/inferior prejudice needs a bit of examining, folks.

What happens to all the weanlings that are being exported to other countries?
That all hardly end as mince?

Base price · 17-10-2019 9:28pm

Muckit wrote: »

There's no easy answer that's for sure. And perhaps the real solution is hard to swallow.

That's why l thought its be a good topic for discussion in the first place.

I think that the majority of dairy farmers with FR/HO cows who experimented using JE/Kiwi sires over the last 2 or 3 years realise that they are better off staying using FR/HO bulls for their replacements cause the resultant JE/FRx/Kiwi bull calf has little or no value and will probably cost them collection fees in the future.

TBH I reckon that the dairy bull calf situation will right itself within 2 years. Dairy farmers with cross bred herds will continue as before but there isn't many of them.

mycro2013 · 17-10-2019 9:30pm

wrangler wrote: »

IFJ have the figures up for their dairy beef project, as expected they lost their shirt again, calves have to be less than €100 and beef nearer to €4./kg.
Heifers were only housed for two months last winter and on grass after that......if they can't make money with a good winter like that they have no hope this year.

The lads selling the calves to the journal must have being laughing at the prices they received. As much as the journal tries farm trials aren't it's thing.

What they should be focusing on is farm innovations and success stories. Alternative practices and enterprises leave the trials to teagasc and co-ops.

The bull calf situation is a train coming the tracks and is a pr disaster waiting to happen.

Muckit · 17-10-2019 9:36pm

But isn't that the scary thing. They're the main farming publication. They're supposed to have the finger on the pulse. Yet they've got it wrong time and time again.

mycro2013 · 17-10-2019 9:44pm

The people running the trials aren't using their own money. Regardless of how successful or unsuccessful the trial those involved in the trial still get paid. "It is very easy to spend some else's money" as illustrated by the prices paid.

When did you see a piece in the journal regarding poultry enterprises or cull cows.

whelan2 · 17-10-2019 9:47pm

Muckit wrote: »

But isn't that the scary thing. They're the main farming publication. They're supposed to have the finger on the pulse. Yet they've got it wrong time and time again.

No mention in it either of the total cock up on bps for louth farmers.

Buford T. Justice XIX · 17-10-2019 9:47pm

Hard Knocks wrote: »

What happens to all the weanlings that are being exported to other countries?
That all hardly end as mince?

They end up as roasts, stews and mince. The same as if they stayed here. The same place the JEx ends up just a bit dearer.

mycro2013 · 17-10-2019 9:53pm

This is an issue for the dairy industry as a whole. From the top to the bottom. The co-ops cant be washing their hands of it and then having the marketing department portray the image of sustainable dairy.

screamer · 17-10-2019 10:07pm

Calves were given away this year, know of one guy and he was giving calves away so long as you bought the maverick or whatever he was selling to feed them.

I’m not too familiar with farming, why so many dairy calves being born? I don’t understand that at all, as in can someone explain why they are bred to that level?

Base price · 17-10-2019 10:08pm

alps wrote: »

Ban the bastards.....

Rats...

Vermin....

You sound like a neighbour and only for the fact that I know he hasn't a clue about using laptop and the internet you could be him

A true story - In Spring 2008 OH was offered twenty odd FRx suck bull calves out of HO/FR cows from a dairy farmer friend who was changing his system. We brought them home, reared them and let them out into the road field early that Summer. The neighbour was driving by heading into the local town that morning and saw the calves in the field. Later on that day I went into the local shop and was informed that we had vermin calves on the farm.

wrangler · 17-10-2019 10:19pm

mycro2013 wrote: »

The lads selling the calves to the journal must have being laughing at the prices they received. As much as the journal tries farm trials aren't it's thing.

What they should be focusing on is farm innovations and success stories. Alternative practices and enterprises leave the trials to teagasc and co-ops.

The bull calf situation is a train coming the tracks and is a pr disaster waiting to happen.

I went back to February 2018 on boards here, Keepgrowing sold hd heifers for €250 so it must have been the price at the time.
It's IFJs money so at the end of the day they're entitled to spend it how they like. no law against doing their own trials
They're always pumping money into farming projects and events
Plenty of farmers made a balls of the last two years too

wrangler · 17-10-2019 10:30pm

screamer wrote: »

Calves were given away this year, know of one guy and he was giving calves away so long as you bought the maverick or whatever he was selling to feed them.

I’m not too familiar with farming, why so many dairy calves being born? I don’t understand that at all, as in can someone explain why they are bred to that level?

Yea, I was talking to a farmer on sunday that bought 21 calves and when he came to collect them he was told to take 40.
He slaughters hundreds of cattle and was telling me he's only allowed dribble them in to the factory

Spring 2020..... 1.5m Dairy calves.... discuss.

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