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Legalize sulky racing with moving obstacles?

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  • 25-04-2018 1:48am
    #1
    MichaelR
    Registered Users Posts: 801 ✭✭✭


    I can't believe it does not exist so I guess I have not found it?

    Back in Russia where I come from, and in most of continental Europe, sulky racing is a well-recognized sport ("the trots"). It seems that Ireland has developed a unique form of "obstacle" sulky racing where the presence of cars tests the ability of the horse to stay calm and of the driver to stay in control, apart from pure speed.

    This could join Ireland's existing unique sports as a tourist attraction. It could be made legal and regulated pretty easily, run in a place like Mondello Park or on a country road circuit isolated for some hours for the purpose (as people do for marathons or bicycle competitions). There is a stock car "track day" community who would gladly provide the distraction driving.

    Yes there is a level of horse abuse. There is also horse abuse in regular gallop racing, where inspections are instituted to miminize it. If "sulky racing with moving obstacles" were legalized, inspections could be extended to it.

    So why is this not even seriously proposed apparently? Or it is and I just could not find the thread?

    Yes, I do live in a place where I see such horses out to pasture. Yes, I have heard things about their owners. No, I have not personally seen a single bit of harm from them (kids being somewhat bold does not count) and I'm here three years already and I'm foreign too. If they are feuding with some other family, I don't exactly care, and I'd love to go to a legal sulky race as a supporter, carrying the flag of my town. (I am not good enough to drive distraction, sadly).

    But instead I see people shouting for a ban. I wonder how many of these people are going to vote Yes and would also legalize marijuana. Because bans don't actually work.


«1

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    #2
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,231 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Has been here for ages.

    http://www.irishharnessracing.com/

    People aren't 'shouting for a ban' on trotting and pacing entirely. Just on the public road.


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    #3
    MichaelR
    Registered Users Posts: 801 ✭✭✭MichaelR


    Well, I think the cars actually make it a different sport for different horses. So some form of racing *with cars* should become available legally.

    Ireland has its own football with a different goal and scoring system, its own grass hockey with a LOT of different rules (known as hurling), so why not its own harness racing with moving obstacles?


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    #4
    MichaelR
    Registered Users Posts: 801 ✭✭✭MichaelR


    Upon more googling, looks like this actually was proposed. Perhaps not to the extent of adding actual obstacle cars (I just got this idea from observing the horses and noting their completely dispassionate character, which seems to be the point; perhaps I'm wrong here).

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/features/sulky-racing-time-to-find-a-legal-solution-358729.html
    https://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/irelands-sulky-racers-reality-bites-30003619/10671463/


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    #5
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users Posts: 7,547 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    I'm a bit confused by what you mean OP. If you're looking for legal sulky racing, then as Enda points out, that already exists. If you're looking for horse driving with obstacles, that already exists. I'm not sure what value moving (car) obstacles brings other than increased danger to the horse. Hurling and hockey are entirely different sports. Gaelic football and soccer are entirely different sports.

    The point isn't the horse's dispassionate character. The point of sulky racing on the road is they can have long straight stretches so trot their horses down, without any sort of rule or guideline to govern the welfare of the horses that harness racing has. Horses shouldn't have a dispassionate character, but with proper habituation, they can get used to cars quite quickly so they don't react to them.

    I just don't understand the point in what you're suggesting.


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    #6
    Imhof Tank
    Registered Users Posts: 2,122 ✭✭✭Imhof Tank


    Ave Sodalis wrote: »

    I just don't understand the point in what you're suggesting.

    Em, he's taking the piss. "A version of grass hockey with many different rules (known as hurling)":rolleyes:


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    #7
    MichaelR
    Registered Users Posts: 801 ✭✭✭MichaelR


    As I understand, Trinity College's hurling team was later, for political reasons apparently, changed to a hockey team, so it was close enough. But I certainly did take the piss to a degree - just to make my point that Ireland is not alien to making its own unique sports which are somewhat related to existing sports. I just framed it in a provocative manner, I really do understand hurling is an entirely different sport (not so much for Gaelic football sports-wise, but it is an entirely different community, which matters a lot because of that big island next door).

    What I am suggesting is to try and create a legal framework for road sulky racing as it has developed in Ireland, starting with what is actually being done, and framing it as another unique Irish sport, instead of chasing the unrealistic goal of a ban. The sulky racers (not just Travellers), well most of them, love their horses, and as I understand these are not the kind of horses that would do well in existing formal trots. There has to be a solution that lets these people with these horses shine, otherwise any ban is just leading down an endless enforcement-evasion cycle, like many other untenable bans (US Prohibition being the most notorious).


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    #8
    TheFarrier
    Registered Users Posts: 607 ✭✭✭TheFarrier


    I’ve worked for a lot of trotting people who partake in the legitimate trotting races around the country. The most of them do love their horses and the good ones understand and take care of there animals better than people involved in most other equestrian sports.

    I’ve also worked for a lot of the lads that race horses and sulkies on roads for money and most of them don’t know one end of a horse from the other and In my professional opinion should be left have no horse, dog, child etc. They can’t see when a horse is injured or unwell and they’ll only stop working him when he’s dead or at least not winning races anymore.


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    #9
    MichaelR
    Registered Users Posts: 801 ✭✭✭MichaelR


    Thanks TheFarrier, noted. Perhaps I am biased by living next to a particular clan - which is feuding with some other clans, but appears to treat the horses well for all I know.

    The question, in my view, is whether suppression or regulation is the better approach.


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    #10
    Cherry Blossom
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional North West Moderators Posts: 6,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cherry Blossom


    Why stop there, why not make the sport of breaking into cars, hot-wiring them and driving at speed at pedestrians and other cars a legal sport. Extra points for killing a child. Makes as much sense :rolleyes:


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    #11
    convert
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 9,338 Mod ✭✭✭✭convert


    Cherry Blossom wrote: »
    Why stop there, why not make the sport of breaking into cars, hot-wiring them and driving at speed at pedestrians and other cars a legal sport. Extra points for killing a child. Makes as much sense :rolleyes:

    A bit extreme, no? And pretty much stating that it's only a specific group of people who enjoy sulky racing.

    Regardless of your views on sulky racing, please avoid stereotyping.

    Discuss the (accurate) facts and keep arguments relevant and polite.


    And a warning to all: please avoid stereotyping of any type (class, gender, age, etc.) and keep points relevant and accurate. And please do not insult other posters.


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    #12
    Cherry Blossom
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional North West Moderators Posts: 6,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cherry Blossom


    The accurate fact is that people who engage in sulky racing on the public roads often take up both sides of the road with their sulkies and their vans and race into oncoming traffic endangering human life and the lives of their horses in the process.


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    #13
    paddi22
    Registered Users Posts: 96 ✭✭paddi22


    MichaelR wrote: »
    The sulky racers (not just Travellers), well most of them, love their horses, and as I understand these are not the kind of horses that would do well in existing formal trots.
    MichaelR wrote: »
    dispassionate character

    As someone who is retraining a sulky racer I got from the pound, i completely disagree with the dispassionate character character. What I got first was a horse who was completely shut down, terrified of making a mistake and just completely shut off from interacting with humans. A few months down the line her proper character emerged and she is a cheeky, feisty, opinionated little mare, 100% different from when i got her. So they aren't dispassionate characters in the slightest.

    And I completely disagree with the statement that they wouldn't do well with other things. They are athletic, clever horses with big hearts. I have retrained my one to do events and she does a super dressage test, has a great jump and is a little rocket cross country.

    And I also completely disagree with your comment that most of the horses are treated well. Mine came with 6 layers of paper thin shoes that had been put on with normal household nails, without the old nails or shoes being removed. It took the farrier an hour to pick all the nails out.


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    #14
    TheFarrier
    Registered Users Posts: 607 ✭✭✭TheFarrier


    paddi22 wrote: »

    And I also completely disagree with your comment that most of the horses are treated well. Mine came with 6 layers of paper thin shoes that had been put on with normal household nails, without the old nails or shoes being removed. It took the farrier an hour to pick all the nails out.


    Holy sh*t...


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    #15
    paddi22
    Registered Users Posts: 96 ✭✭paddi22


    TheFarrier wrote: »
    Holy sh*t...

    yeah it was mad, they were absolutely paper thin. they must have worn them down and just stuck a new set on top. only the fact they had never trimmed them saved her foot being completly fecked. The nails hadn't hit into any important areas. And the nails were just hardware nails, the owners obviously though 'well a nail is a nail!' Mare is grand now. Barefoot and hooves as hard as a rock thank god


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    #16
    MichaelR
    Registered Users Posts: 801 ✭✭✭MichaelR


    I certainly may be biased and more interestingly the RTE guy may be biased too. Since writing the OP I have witnessed people, not where I live, apparently mistreat a horse. I'm just of the general mind that regulation usually works better than trying to get things wiped out, when reasonably possible.

    Compare marijuana, or more to the point, compare Demolition Derby, where people drive cars and actually are encouraged to smash into each other.

    I certainly agree that any legal sport should happen either on a track or else on a stretch of local roads that is properly cordoned off for the time.


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    #17
    TheFarrier
    Registered Users Posts: 607 ✭✭✭TheFarrier


    But sulky racing does take place on proper tracks with rules and regulations and it’s a legitimate sport.
    Its the people that take sulky racing to the streets are the problem, not the sport as a whole.
    Like motor racing. Car races take place on proper tracks, closed roads etc, but still people race cars illegally on the open road in the dead of night. I did it myself as a stupid(er) young(er) lad.


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    #18
    MichaelR
    Registered Users Posts: 801 ✭✭✭MichaelR


    Motor racing is a good comparison actually. There is specialized race car racing (Formula etc), and then there is also fun for ordinary "stock" cars, from track racing to demolition derbies. I just think there should be similar levels of fun for "ordinary"/light draft of horses. They can't race against Standardbreds or other strong trotters.

    (And I do think there is betting on stock car sports, despite it being obviously a more amateurish field).


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    #19
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users Posts: 7,547 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    Horses aren't designed to race on tarmac and roads. There are dedicated harness racing that they can use but they won't. It's not a lack of cars that's the problem, the goal isn't to have the most "calm" horse, and there are lower level competitions for more casual drivers. As for obstacles, there is cross country carriage driving. The resources and sports are already there.



    Why do you think they don't want to use them?


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    #20
    Cherry Blossom
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional North West Moderators Posts: 6,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cherry Blossom


    In my experience which is limited to meeting these people on public roads they do not try to avoid the moving obstacles as you call them. They put the onus on the obstacle to avoid the sulky racers.


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    #21
    paddi22
    Registered Users Posts: 96 ✭✭paddi22


    but the people that do it on the roads DON't want it legalised. they don't want it legalised because that would mean the large amounts of money being bet on it would be noticed, and also there would be some kind of horse welfare awareness brought into it.

    Sulkie racing is just joyriding for scumbags who want to bet cahs and don't care about a jot about the welfare of the horse involved unless it wins money for them.


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    #22
    laoch na mona
    Registered Users Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    paddi22 wrote: »

    And I also completely disagree with your comment that most of the horses are treated well. Mine came with 6 layers of paper thin shoes that had been put on with normal household nails, without the old nails or shoes being removed. It took the farrier an hour to pick all the nails out.

    As terrible as your experience has been you can't label an entire community based of it


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    #23
    paddi22
    Registered Users Posts: 96 ✭✭paddi22


    laoch na mona wrote: »
    As terrible as your experience has been you can't label an entire community based of it

    what community do you mean? I didn't reference any particular community.


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    #24
    ILoveYourVibes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,176 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    MichaelR wrote: »
    I can't believe it does not exist so I guess I have not found it?

    Back in Russia where I come from, and in most of continental Europe, sulky racing is a well-recognized sport ("the trots"). It seems that Ireland has developed a unique form of "obstacle" sulky racing where the presence of cars tests the ability of the horse to stay calm and of the driver to stay in control, apart from pure speed.

    This could join Ireland's existing unique sports as a tourist attraction. It could be made legal and regulated pretty easily, run in a place like Mondello Park or on a country road circuit isolated for some hours for the purpose (as people do for marathons or bicycle competitions). There is a stock car "track day" community who would gladly provide the distraction driving.

    Yes there is a level of horse abuse. There is also horse abuse in regular gallop racing, where inspections are instituted to miminize it. If "sulky racing with moving obstacles" were legalized, inspections could be extended to it.

    So why is this not even seriously proposed apparently? Or it is and I just could not find the thread?

    Yes, I do live in a place where I see such horses out to pasture. Yes, I have heard things about their owners. No, I have not personally seen a single bit of harm from them (kids being somewhat bold does not count) and I'm here three years already and I'm foreign too. If they are feuding with some other family, I don't exactly care, and I'd love to go to a legal sulky race as a supporter, carrying the flag of my town. (I am not good enough to drive distraction, sadly).

    But instead I see people shouting for a ban. I wonder how many of these people are going to vote Yes and would also legalize marijuana. Because bans don't actually work.


    I agree with you 100 percent


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    #25
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ILoveYourVibes wrote: »
    I agree with you 100 percent

    Where would you hold legalised sulky races? Who would set up and pay for the facility?


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    #26
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users Posts: 7,547 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    Deleted User wrote:
    Where would you hold legalised sulky races? Who would set up and pay for the facility?


    As many posters already have said, legalised sulky races (known as harness racing) exists.


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    #27
    stefanovich
    Registered Users Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    Cherry Blossom wrote: »
    In my experience which is limited to meeting these people on public roads they do not try to avoid the moving obstacles as you call them. They put the onus on the obstacle to avoid the sulky racers.

    Well, the will drive a jeep in front against the traffic to force it into the hard shoulder.


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    #28
    supersaint3
    Registered Users Posts: 276 ✭✭supersaint3


    Jesus Christ this is the death of boards.ie playing out isn't it


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    #29
    super_furry
    Registered Users Posts: 27,321 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    Legalising it or trying to control it won't change a thing. Boxing is legal but we still see new videos of bare-knuckle fights every weekend.


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    #30
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Ave Sodalis wrote: »
    As many posters already have said, legalised sulky races (known as harness racing) exists.

    No. Harness racing is a legal activity with rules and regulations. Sulky racing isn’t and doesn’t.


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    #31
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users Posts: 7,547 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    Deleted User wrote:
    No. Harness racing is a legal activity with rules and regulations. Sulky racing isn’t and doesn’t.


    That's what I mean. Harness racing use sulkies, but given the negative connection to sulky racing, they've had to name it harness racing. However, harness racing is the legal form of sulky racing.


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