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Born again Christians preaching on our streets

124

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  • #92
    The Late Late Show
    Closed Accounts Posts: 840 ✭✭✭The Late Late Show


    corner of hells wrote: »
    Have you thought about asking them who they are ?

    This might free up space in AH for our usual inane threads.

    On a lighter note , I work with a born again Christian who gets prophetic dreams that she draws out the following morning with crayons

    So far I can expect to be guided to safety by two ostriches and a giraffe/person according to her.

    Less of the putdowns. I merely asked a bloody question, not accused this preacher of being right or wrong. This is the problem with this site, ain't it. Bullies and more bullies and no one can answer a freaking question!


  • #93
    branie2
    Registered Users Posts: 10,288 ✭✭✭✭branie2


    You can see plenty of them in Speakers Corner in Hyde Park, London.


  • #94
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    Berserker wrote: »
    Kind of goes against the whole spreading the message idea though, doesn't it.

    Depends who's message you mean. Quite a lot of Christians interpret the text as saying they should lead my example. The whole "by fruits you shall know them" shtick for example. Not everyone things evangelism is the method by which to spread their faith.

    That said though - above we were discussing the whole "I will pray for you" statement which has been shown in study to be harmful. This is not really "spreading the message" as much as reciting a mantra. The whole "Have you heard the good news about Jesus - he died for your sins" crowd - now they are spreading a message.


  • #95
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,257 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    Dead, actually. For 2000 years. People are awaiting his second coming, not realising that he already did that.

    There's no third coming, peeps.

    Nor a second coming.. just some bearded lad who died a long time ago


  • #96
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Depends who's message you mean. Quite a lot of Christians interpret the text as saying they should lead my example. The whole "by fruits you shall know them" shtick for example. Not everyone things evangelism is the method by which to spread their faith.

    That said though - above we were discussing the whole "I will pray for you" statement which has been shown in study to be harmful. This is not really "spreading the message" as much as reciting a mantra. The whole "Have you heard the good news about Jesus - he died for your sins" crowd - now they are spreading a message.
    What are you going to do now you know that message? You'll never be able to say you never heard!

    There's another message..God reconciled the world to Himself in Jesus Christ....now you be reconciled to God.

    It's a much better message than "have you found Jesus".... again, never knew He was lost:)


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  • #97
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    What will I do with it? Ignore with with all the rest of the evidence devoid tosh I have heard the "message" for that people make up out of their over active imaginations - usually for profit :)


  • #98
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    What will I do with it? Ignore with with all the rest of the evidence devoid tosh I have heard the "message" for that people make up out of their over active imaginations - usually for profit :)

    That's exactly the question to be asked! What will you do with it?

    Sadly some use it for profit...I'd have serious questions about their type of Christianity especially when Jesus was the complete opposite,buts it's always been like that. Just read the New Testament. Thankfuly we're called to follow Him not some "Mr/s Rich" .


  • #99
    corner of hells
    Registered Users Posts: 8,353 ✭✭✭corner of hells


    The Late Late Show wrote: »
    Less of the putdowns. I merely asked a bloody question, not accused this preacher of being right or wrong. This is the problem with this site, ain't it. Bullies and more bullies and no one can answer a freaking question!

    Bless you , my child.


  • #100
    bnt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,955 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    My reaction to these preachers is one of pity, not scorn. It's such an anaemic, warped view of the world, to think that you are one of the chosen ones. You have the answers, and other religions that say the same things are just wrong. You can save others, you just have to stand on a street corner and shout louder than the others. You're so concerned about the "next life" that you have given up the chance to fully live the life you have today.

    From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, ‘Look at that, you son of a bitch’.

    — Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 Astronaut



  • #101
    Earthsnotflat
    Registered Users Posts: 33 ✭Earthsnotflat


    Religions are very powerful tool indeed to control people, but if you (I mean whoever) think about Bible's message and what was Jesus teaching, it all went against religion, the focus was on personal faith. One can generalize that all religions are promising is basically some afterlife at some god's house that is to be worked hard to deserve in this life and at this earth currency, administered by some kind of clergy who stands between people and god. Bible says that's Jesus role as He is God/man in one person. No need for middle man, no need to pay.
    But this is a bit of a problem for religions, it seems like they are not really necessary , worse even, they stand in the way and distort the way to God, which is by faith only. So all their power and accumulated throughout centuries money is useless from afterlife point of view. Like Pharaoh's treasures buried with them.


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  • #102
    Berserker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,046 ✭✭✭Berserker


    bnt wrote: »
    You're so concerned about the "next life" that you have given up the chance to fully live the life you have today.

    As I said in my original post on this thread, my colleague was the happiest person I've ever met. All of the little things in life and work place BS just didn't register with her. Most of the people in that church loved their lives and the way they lived. It might not be for you or I but it certainly worked for them.


  • #103
    valoren
    Registered Users Posts: 5,458 ✭✭✭valoren


    Earthsnotflat wrote: »
    Religions are very powerful tool indeed to control people, but if you (I mean whoever) think about Bible's message and what was Jesus teaching, it all went against religion, the focus was on personal faith. One can generalize that all religions are promising is basically some afterlife at some god's house that is to be worked hard to deserve in this life and at this earth currency, administered by some kind of clergy who stands between people and god. Bible says that's Jesus role as He is God/man in one person. No need for middle man, no need to pay.
    But this is a bit of a problem for religions, it seems like they are not really necessary , worse even, they stand in the way and distort the way to God, which is by faith only. So all their power and accumulated throughout centuries money is useless from afterlife point of view. Like Pharaoh's treasures buried with them.

    Jesus was not divine. It was attributed to him posthumously. He was one of many preachers but his unique selling point was the provocative suggestion that we are all 'God'. Love one another etc. It resulted in him generating a massive following where he and his message became a threat to the established church of the time. The more people who subscribed to his teachings the more money and power would be lost. It was this message of us all being capable of expressing God that lead to and enabled church leaders to create a trumped up charge of blasphemy. They wanted him executed and to quell potential riots this was catered for. In the centuries after, this Church, which was always ever present, which was always about power, by metamorphism, became 'Christianity' exploiting the teachings and morals of Jesus but fictitiously now affording him divinity as the son of God, who sent him here and who died a martyr for our sins. The wrangling of power was tightened with the exploitative notion that only through him lay salvation. It was good business to do that, it kept the tills ringing for centuries and alternatively controlled masses of people with the fear that if you didn't follow Christ you would go to hell. So not only was he killed, he had his message exploited, propped up and disseminated across the globe by the vested interests of the church, the hierarchies of which have been anything but Christian.

    The street preachers are a continuation of it all but with the toxic church exploits clouding their underlying message that if we're all nice to each other everything will be better.


  • #104
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,801 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    corner of hells wrote: »
    On a lighter note , I work with a born again Christian who gets prophetic dreams that she draws out the following morning with crayons

    So far I can expect to be guided to safety by two ostriches and a giraffe/person according to her.

    Funny how when mental illness manifests itself as intense devotion to a reasonably mainstream religion, society gives it a complete free pass and you're the bad person for even thinking there's anything wrong with them

    We accept that people who hear voices in their head are mentally ill, but replace the voices with 'god' and suddenly it's ok

    Gravelly wrote: »
    I've a close friend who used to be a bit of a disaster when it came to life choices (drink, drugs, messed-up women etc.), but had a bit of a personal disaster nearly 20 years ago, and shortly afterwards became a born again christian. We all thought it was a phase that would quickly pass, but it has stuck and he is REALLY into it.

    This is common enough. It's just replacing one mental crutch/addiction with another.

    eviltwin wrote: »
    This is fairly common in Dublin. If it's not the Muslims, Athiest Ireland and JW outside the GPO

    AI don't use megaphones or approach people. If people want information or have questions they approach AI, not the other way around. This is a country where to many people, "atheist" is still a dirty word.

    Life ain't always empty.



  • #105
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,104 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    fxotoole wrote: »
    Someone who lived a rock n roll lifestyle, had a religious epiphany, and then turned their life around and decided to live their life through the word of the Lord.

    have you seen the movie Jesus Camp? There's a teenager who says this

    Levi: At five I got saved...
    Becky Fischer: Yeah?
    Levi: ...because I just wanted more of life."


  • #106
    Huntergonzo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭Huntergonzo


    I enjoy listening to insane people rambling on incoherently. Be they christians waffling on about the dead jew who rose again or modern 'liberals' trying to convince us that there's 100s of different genders and you can just choose to be whatever one you want on the spot.

    Different ends of the spectrum but basically the same people, all nuts.


  • #107
    keano_afc
    Registered Users Posts: 8,711 ✭✭✭keano_afc


    Ciaran_B wrote: »
    There's a guy who does be at the junction of O'Connell St and Earl St, big American lad with a beard. He's been there for years. He sets up an easel (sp??) and paints on it while preaching about God or whatever. Fair play.

    Mickey Walker. He's been living in Ireland for years but hasnt lost the American accent. He's a fascinating lad.


  • #108
    branie2
    Registered Users Posts: 10,288 ✭✭✭✭branie2


    I think I saw someone doing something like that in Limerick.


  • #109
    Earthsnotflat
    Registered Users Posts: 33 ✭Earthsnotflat


    Huntergonzo wrote: »
    I enjoy listening to insane people rambling on incoherently. Be they christians waffling on about the dead jew who rose again ..

    Just to clarify :-) there were no 'crazy christians' when this Jew rose up from death, only hundreds of eye witnesses, many of which not his students but ordinary people walking streets when this happened. One of these people was enemy of that new movement who persecuted early believers, Saul of Tarsus.


  • #110
    randd1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,778 ✭✭✭randd1


    Earthsnotflat wrote: »
    Just to clarify :-) there were no 'crazy christians' when this Jew rose up from death, only hundreds of eye witnesses, many of which not his students but ordinary people walking streets when this happened. One of these people was enemy of that new movement who persecuted early believers, Saul of Tarsus.

    It always fascinated me as to why the symbol of Christ was a cross and not a zombie doll given that the cult was built around the supernatural aspects of the story.


  • #111
    John DoeReMi
    Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭John DoeReMi


    Earthsnotflat wrote: »
    Just to clarify :-) there were no 'crazy christians' when this Jew rose up from death, only hundreds of eye witnesses, many of which not his students but ordinary people walking streets when this happened. One of these people was enemy of that new movement who persecuted early believers, Saul of Tarsus.

    I'd love to know where the corroborated accounts of these "hundreds of witnesses" are, since plenty of Boardsies with more education and/or time on their hands than me presented a fairly convincing case that there isn't a shred of evidence of any such event in this thread:

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057853795


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  • #112
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,801 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Earthsnotflat wrote: »
    Just to clarify :-) there were no 'crazy christians' when this Jew rose up from death, only hundreds of eye witnesses, many of which not his students but ordinary people walking streets when this happened. One of these people was enemy of that new movement who persecuted early believers, Saul of Tarsus.

    Suuuure. And you know this is true because the book it was written down in decades or centuries later says it totally is true.

    Life ain't always empty.



  • #113
    Earthsnotflat
    Registered Users Posts: 33 ✭Earthsnotflat


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Suuuure. And you know this is true because the book it was written down in decades or centuries later says it totally is true.

    Not only later, this book foretold this centuries earlier. It's so easy to reject without studying as just some old book, but millions hrs of studies and centuries later people still believe this book, and other still mock it. But Bible's claims stand and that's good, even if they seem revolutionary/blasphemous or silly they're there to provoke to think or even to enrage, after thousands of years and some dangerous for books times


  • #114
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,104 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Earthsnotflat wrote: »
    Not only later, this book foretold this centuries earlier. It's so easy to reject without studying as just some old book, but millions hrs of studies and centuries later people still believe this book, and other still mock it. But Bible's claims stand and that's good, even if they seem revolutionary/blasphemous or silly they're there to provoke to think or even to enrage, after thousands of years and some dangerous for books times

    Like the bit where it says that Pi is equal to 3?


  • #115
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    John DoeReMi wrote: »
    I'd love to know where the corroborated accounts of these "hundreds of witnesses" are

    Whats worse is that having "hundreds of witnesses" only seems to be acceptable evidence for something that happened 2000 years ago.

    For example take the case of a man who was allegedly doing miracles in modern times..... with 100s of contemporaneous eye witness accounts. Hs name was Sathya Sai Baba and essentially 1 million people showed up just for what was his birthday party. If memory recalls he even claimed to be born of a virgin. As was Ghengus kahn and alexander the great by the way. Seems virgin births are not as uncommon as we are led to believe :)

    However put these "corroborated accounts of hundreds of witnesses" to the average Christian and they know as well as I do the claims are still more than likely absolute tosh and fantasy and Baba was a fraud with skills even I can exceed with my close up magic training.

    Stick the same type of "corroborated accounts of hundreds of witnesses" in the unverifiable 2000 year past however - and you're the bad person for _not_ beleiving it.

    Unpack that one.


  • #116
    RobbieTheRobber
    Registered Users Posts: 6,738 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    Earthsnotflat wrote: »
    Not only later, this book foretold this centuries earlier. It's so easy to reject without studying as just some old book, but millions hrs of studies and centuries later people still believe this book, and other still mock it. But Bible's claims stand and that's good, even if they seem revolutionary/blasphemous or silly they're there to provoke to think or even to enrage, after thousands of years and some dangerous for books times

    The book that was written decades after an event, actually foretold this event centuries before it was written??:confused::confused::confused:

    It's a time traveling book! :eek:


  • #117
    Earthsnotflat
    Registered Users Posts: 33 ✭Earthsnotflat


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Whats worse is that having "hundreds of witnesses" only seems to be acceptable evidence for something that happened 2000 years ago.


    Unpack that one.
    Ok that's easy :-)
    As to the prove for number of eye witnesses mentioned in the Bible, there is google for that, really, I don't know all this passages by heart and if someone asked I would Google it first. But there were around 500 people mentioned.

    As to many frauds, as Baba and many others, even today there are people claiming there are Jesus, so the only thing that was different with this Jew from 2000 yrs ago, was that everything about His coming, life, death, raising from death, purpose etc. had been foretold in so called old testament. And fulfilled exactly. And religious Jews of that times wouldn't take any fraud, there were sure many who rejected him but some believed, and why they believed, they didn't have new testament to read, because of overwhelming improbability of every little prophecy being fulfilled by Him just by chance.
    And of course religious people couldn't let their source of power and income be destroyed by someone who claimed He was God.
    It's like people prefer to be enslaved by religions than 'just' believe, but religions sell false claims for real money


  • #118
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,088 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Earthsnotflat wrote: »
    Ok that's easy :-)
    As to the prove for number of eye witnesses mentioned in the Bible, there is google for that, really, I don't know all this passages by heart and if someone asked I would Google it first. But there were around 500 people mentioned.

    As to many frauds, as Baba and many others, even today there are people claiming there are Jesus, so the only thing that was different with this Jew from 2000 yrs ago, was that everything about His coming, life, death, raising from death, purpose etc. had been foretold in so called old testament. And fulfilled exactly. And religious Jews of that times wouldn't take any fraud, there were sure many who rejected him but some believed, and why they believed, they didn't have new testament to read, because of overwhelming improbability of every little prophecy being fulfilled by Him just by chance.
    And of course religious people couldn't let their source of power and income be destroyed by someone who claimed He was God.
    It's like people prefer to be enslaved by religions than 'just' believe, but religions sell false claims for real money


    Well, no is really the only answer to that. the circumstances of his birth and life are told in the gospels. Each of the gospels tells a different story. Some of the gospels are deliberately written so that they match what was prophesied. Others oddly omit these important details.If they are truly the word of god how is that the case?


  • #119
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    Earthsnotflat wrote: »
    As to the prove for number of eye witnesses mentioned in the Bible, there is google for that, really, I don't know all this passages by heart and if someone asked I would Google it first. But there were around 500 people mentioned.

    It looks like you replied to my post but are actually replying to a conversation you are having with someone else? Not sure. However if someone is asking you for proof of a claim in the bible, is citing the names "mentioned" in the bible the right way to go about things? Is that not circular? Using the biblical claims to validate the biblical claims? Seems a weird approach to me.
    Earthsnotflat wrote: »
    As to many frauds, as Baba and many others, even today there are people claiming there are Jesus

    My point was not so much about the frauds or the prophecies though. My point was that there are people who accept the testimony of 100s of people people _long_ dead who refuse to accept the testimony of 100s of people still alive today. I merely suggest their algorithm here might be somewhat based on bias.
    Earthsnotflat wrote: »
    had been foretold in so called old testament. And fulfilled exactly.

    It should be pointed out that this happens in fiction all the time though. In Lord of The Rings for example events prophetized in book 1 happened in book 6. So too for the Dune chronicles by Frank Herbert. Artistic license when writing a book is you get to write the events to conform with the prophecy of early works. Be it Science Fiction, or Bible.

    Further one must consider self fulfilling prophecy. Anyone who wants to show up and claim to be the messiah is not merely going to randomly rock into town. They are going to know the prophecy and conform to it. If the prophecy says the messiah will ride semi naked into town on a donkey with his ma beside him - then any messiah wanna be worth his salt is going to ride semi naked into town on a donkey with his ma beside him.


  • #120
    Earthsnotflat
    Registered Users Posts: 33 ✭Earthsnotflat


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    It looks like you replied to my post but are actually replying to a conversation you are having with someone else? Not sure. However if someone is asking you for proof of a claim in the bible, is citing the names "mentioned" in the bible the right way to go about things? Is that not circular? Using the biblical claims to validate the biblical claims? Seems a weird approach to me.



    My point was not so much about the frauds or the prophecies though. My point was that there are people who accept the testimony of 100s of people people _long_ dead who refuse to accept the testimony of 100s of people still alive today. I merely suggest their algorithm here might be somewhat based on bias.



    It should be pointed out that this happens in fiction all the time though. In Lord of The Rings for example events prophetized in book 1 happened in book 6. So too for the Dune chronicles by Frank Herbert. Artistic license when writing a book is you get to write the events to conform with the prophecy of early works. Be it Science Fiction, or Bible.

    Further one must consider self fulfilling prophecy. Anyone who wants to show up and claim to be the messiah is not merely going to randomly rock into town. They are going to know the prophecy and conform to it. If the prophecy says the messiah will ride semi naked into town on a donkey with his ma beside him - then any messiah wanna be worth his salt is going to ride semi naked into town on a donkey with his ma beside him.

    Just to reply to you, I see your point, I used to think the same, but one can hardly choose place of ones birth, the evidence really is overwhelming of him fulfilling all scripture, other thing, old testament is not one book written by one author but many and they didn't know each other nor did they know about different parts that were later assembled as old testament, yet all this work form a unity without contradictions etc. Anyway I don't think anyone can be convinced by arguments alone, their are there but you must add belief , like you will not see if you don't believe, if it's against logic for some, so be it, but it works :-) "the truth will set you free," if someone's interested


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  • #121
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    Earthsnotflat wrote: »
    one can hardly choose place of ones birth, the evidence really is overwhelming of him fulfilling all scripture

    Again though is the evidence of that in the Bible itself - and are we again using the claims in the bible to validate the claims in the bible? If so then there is nothing "overwhelming" about it. Quite the opposite in fact. It would be farcical.

    As for "the place of ones birth" there is kind of the anthropic principle thing going on there. A lot of people were born in that time and place. And there were a lot of preachers. Is it that a preacher fulfilled the prophecy? Or is is that a lot of people were there and people picked the one that they noticed in the retrospective fulfilled the prophecy?

    Evidence a prophecy is fulfilled only becomes relevant - let alone "overwhelming" when all aspects of Self Fulfilling prophecy have been identified, evaluated, and eliminated.
    Earthsnotflat wrote: »
    like you will not see if you don't believe, if it's against logic for some, so be it, but it works

    It does work I agree. The problem is it works for _many_ things. So one would require an algorithm to select between the things it works for. Which leaves you right back at square one.

    So rather than just adding belief to the fray as you suggest - you have to actively add disbelief and cherry picking too. You have to consciously choose to afford one thing belief - and withhold it from all the rest - in a completely arbitrary nature. Which is again farcical.

    To steal an example from another boards user who does not post so much any more - so I hope he would forgive it - the people who believe the number 23 controls everything (there was a jim carey movie about them) are the same as what you say here. Because it works! If you choose to believe that number is relevant over any other and go look for confirming evidence you will find it. A _lot_ of it in fact. Confirming evidence will be coming out your ears.

    Problem is - same thing will happen pretty much regardless of what number you went with. Which should be informative to know. But clearly the "seeing is beleiving but believing is seeing" crowd which you appear to have just made yourself part of - don't notice.


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