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Go-Ahead Dublin City Routes - Updates and Discussion

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Nbru were stating not to use I believe.

    There are many cases where they can be user but times where they can't also as outlined above.


    CCTV monitor broken, stop not suitable, stop blocked, bus can only get front door into kerb, etc ...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    the only reason i have saw on here for their lack of use is concernes about the safety of some stops, which with our compo culture is understandible. if they aren't opening them at stops where it is safe then management need to deal with that as is their job.

    The problem is in Ireland a bus driver is responsible for a whole lot more than just driving a bus safely. He/she is responsible for may other things such taking fares and making leap transactions, making sure everyone pays or produces a leap cards, preventing anti social behaviour and making sure passenger disembark the bus safely.

    On the continent a driver would have none of these responsibilities only driving the bus safely is his/her responsibility. If someone was to trip or get caught in the doors the concern of the driver would to get the bus moving again asap and not worry if the person was alright or not or getting sued.

    A mixture of both trade unions and mostly solicitors has meant that this country has become the European capital of litigation only beaten by the good old US of A for the world title and h+s has gone so over the top to the point that a bus driver can't open a bloody door.

    Trade unions espeically SIPTU have pushed and pushed for more h+s regulation over the years however this has not nessecarily been a good thing for their members as employers have pushed the h+s regulations on their members rather than on themselves.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,656 Mod ✭✭✭✭dfx-


    I have said this many many times on the forum, but I see them used regularly before and after this tender.

    They're not needed or indeed used much of course, but they are opened.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    I can see many places that need improvement.

    Every bus stop is different not one is unified.

    Many can't get bus in with cars,trucks and vans parked at each end.

    Stops on corners, at junctions, beside lights, at the stupidest of places on blind bends and so on.


    If they want double door use get one thing right 1st and sort suitable safe places to drop/collect passengers.

    Enforce bus stop rules and stop illegal parking and taxis setting up ranks.


    I don't believe people understand how difficult it is for drivers to negotiate all the above along with traffic, pedestrians and bikes, rickshaws etc.....


    Its nuts what goes on and how much they have to watch out for.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,462 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    I can see many places that need improvement.

    Every bus stop is different not one is unified.

    Many can't get bus in with cars,trucks and vans parked at each end.

    Stops on corners, at junctions, beside lights, at the stupidest of places on blind bends and so on.

    If they want double door use get one thing right 1st and sort suitable safe places to drop/collect passengers.

    Enforce bus stop rules and stop illegal parking and taxis setting up ranks.

    I don't believe people understand how difficult it is for drivers to negotiate all the above along with traffic, pedestrians and bikes, rickshaws etc.....

    Its nuts what goes on and how much they have to watch out for.

    so are all these difficulties somehow unique to Dublin then? Because in my experience of any number of other European or Australasian cities is those same problems all exist but make no difference on door usage.

    The only issue in Dublin is the stupid and relentless march of over the top H&S and blaming others rather than taking responsibility for your own actions.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    so are all these difficulties somehow unique to Dublin then? Because in my experience of any number of other European or Australasian cities is those same problems all exist but make no difference on door usage.

    The only issue in Dublin is the stupid and relentless march of over the top H&S and blaming others rather than taking responsibility for your own actions.




    The danger is claims as its always over the drivers.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    The danger is claims as its always over the drivers.

    And that should be changed


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭brokenarms


    I can see many places that need improvement.

    Every bus stop is different not one is unified.

    Many can't get bus in with cars,trucks and vans parked at each end.

    Stops on corners, at junctions, beside lights, at the stupidest of places on blind bends and so on.


    If they want double door use get one thing right 1st and sort suitable safe places to drop/collect passengers.

    Enforce bus stop rules and stop illegal parking and taxis setting up ranks.


    I don't believe people understand how difficult it is for drivers to negotiate all the above along with traffic, pedestrians and bikes, rickshaws etc.....


    Its nuts what goes on and how much they have to watch out for.

    Taxis just dont care. A bus stop is a perfect place for them to load/unload/wait . No Garda, No enforcement. Why would they care?

    I dont use the centre doors if I cant get in. Management will (try to) nail me to a cross if someone falls. Quoting "you are the professional" in every situation.

    If I can get in, they always open.
    This is why I always go for an older one door busses.
    One less stress in my day.

    If anyone here thinks go ahead employees are going to risk their jobs over centre door use, then they may wait for the next stop. The doors will not open.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    brokenarms wrote: »
    Taxis just dont care. A bus stop is a perfect place for them to load/unload/wait . No Garda, No enforcement. Why would they care?

    I dont use the centre doors if I cant get in. Management will (try to) nail me to a cross if someone falls. Quoting "you are the professional" in every situation.

    If I can get in, they always open.
    This is why I always go for an older one door busses.
    One less stress in my day.

    If anyone here thinks go ahead employees are going to risk their jobs over centre door use, then they may wait for the next stop. The doors will not open.

    In the depot when taking a bus out do have a choice of what bus you take I always thought all buses were allocated depending on route.

    There needs to be something done about this meaning the driver is not responsible if someone trips falls, gets caught in the door or is obstructed while disembarking. Ideally the passengers would be held liable not the company or the driver this needs to changed espeically with the BusConnects plan coming into play.

    In the meantime why can't they put up a sign saying passengers use middle door at their own risk.

    I have a feeling that even DB mangement are against middle doors and they feel it was something forced upon by the NTA not something that they would have choose if it was them buying the GT and SG class and not the NTA.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    There needs to be something done about this meaning the driver is not responsible if someone trips falls, gets caught in the door or is obstructed while disembarking. Ideally the passengers would be held liable not the company or the driver this needs to changed espeically with the BusConnects plan coming into play.

    The drivers will not agree to rules being brought in on it because they were told at a labour court ruling in the past that they have the right to use their discretion when it is safe or not and to make that decision and the company cannot dictate to them when they can and cannot use the doors and the discretion is on a driver by driver, case by case, stop by stop basis. This is their get out of jail card for inconsistant usage, simply saying they're using their discretion.

    The only thing that will appease the drivers is if there is a blanket assurance that anyone who falls from the middle doors will not be the responsibility of the driver which is never going to happen because at the end of the day it basically allows a driver who is intentionally reckless or acting in a grossly unsafe manner a get out of jail free card and no company lawyer will authorize their client to sign such an agreement.

    Already the Dublin Bus middle doors have facilities that a lot of other middle door operators do not have, in that the doors push outwards rather than folding up, a dedicated CCTV Camera is supplied, along with buzzer, mirror and dedicated monitor in the cab, most operators around the world don't have all of that.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭brokenarms


    Stephen15 wrote: »


    In the depot when taking a bus out do have a choice of what bus you take I always thought all buses were allocated depending on route.

    There needs to be something done about this meaning the driver is not responsible if someone trips falls, gets caught in the door or is obstructed while disembarking. Ideally the passengers would be held liable not the company or the driver this needs to changed espeically with the BusConnects plan coming into play.

    In the meantime why can't they put up a sign saying passengers use middle door at their own risk.

    I have a feeling that even DB mangement are against middle doors and they feel it was something forced upon by the NTA not something that they would have choose if it was them buying the GT and SG class and not the NTA.

    What needs to happen in my opinion.
    Sign as you stated and a button for passengers to use.

    There is a big window on each door. They can see what they are stepping into. Let them use it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,379 ✭✭✭VG31


    Or just have passenger operated door opening buttons like they do in lots of countries, particularly on articulated buses. That's takes the responsibility away from the driver.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,478 ✭✭✭john boye


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    brokenarms wrote: »
    Taxis just dont care. A bus stop is a perfect place for them to load/unload/wait . No Garda, No enforcement. Why would they care?

    I dont use the centre doors if I cant get in. Management will (try to) nail me to a cross if someone falls. Quoting "you are the professional" in every situation.

    If I can get in, they always open.
    This is why I always go for an older one door busses.
    One less stress in my day.

    If anyone here thinks go ahead employees are going to risk their jobs over centre door use, then they may wait for the next stop. The doors will not open.

    In the meantime why can't they put up a sign saying passengers use middle door at their own risk.

    A sign that said that would almost seem like it was warning people against using them, that's not what DB/NTA are trying to do.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    devnull wrote: »
    The drivers will not agree to rules being brought in on it because they were told at a labour court ruling in the past that they have the right to use their discretion when it is safe or not and to make that decision and the company cannot dictate to them when they can and cannot use the doors and the discretion is on a driver by driver, case by case, stop by stop basis. This is their get out of jail card for inconsistant usage, simply saying they're using their discretion.

    The only thing that will appease the drivers is if there is a blanket assurance that anyone who falls from the middle doors will not be the responsibility of the driver which is never going to happen because at the end of the day it basically allows a driver who is intentionally reckless or acting in a grossly unsafe manner a get out of jail free card and no company lawyer will authorize their client to sign such an agreement.

    So why would they be still against it if was to be changed and they weren't going held liable of there was to be an accident. If it was to be changed then it should be made mantatory. If they aren't going to be held responsible in case of an accident.

    Its annoys how everything is done so half arsed in this country. Introduce middle doors to cut dwell times: good, make the driver responsible if something goes wrong: complete and utter nonsense. You couldn't make it up. Anything good that is done here is affected by some stupid reason.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    So why would they be still against it if was to be changed and they weren't going held liable of there was to be an accident. If it was to be changed then it should be made mantatory. If they aren't going to be held responsible in case of an accident.

    Because you cannot say that someone is never going to be held responsible no matter how badly they act because it removes any incentive for said person to act safely and encourages people to dangerous high stakes risks knowing that no matter what they do, however reckless they behave, however much they willfully derelict their duties, they will not get the blame.

    It's not just the compensation culture passengers that the company needs to protect itself from, it also needs to protect itself from incidents where the staff member puts the public in danger by doing things like opening the middle doors in the middle of the road or opening the doors when there was an obstacle or issue that could and should have been foreseen but wasn't because the driver wasn't paying due attention.
    Its annoys how everything is done so half arsed in this country. Introduce middle doors to cut dwell times: good, make the driver responsible if something goes wrong: complete and utter nonsense. You couldn't make it up. Anything good that is done here is affected by some stupid reason.

    There is nothing to say that the driver will be responsible if it goes wrong, that is something that is decided on a case by case basis in our courts, and unfortunately we do have a compensation culture whether we like it or not means that they are more likely to award sums to the passenger claiming than some other courts.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    john boye wrote: »
    A sign that said that would almost seem like it was warning people against using them, that's not what DB/NTA are trying to do.

    Would a wet floor sign put people off going into a shop in case they might slip probably not. Its just something covering the shop if someone was to slip and try and sue or would it put someone off parking their car in car park where it said that 'vehicles contents are left at the owners risk' again probably not. Its the same concept a de facto meaningless sign that covers a company or an organisation in case of litigation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,478 ✭✭✭john boye


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    john boye wrote: »
    A sign that said that would almost seem like it was warning people against using them, that's not what DB/NTA are trying to do.

    Would a wet floor sign put people off going into a shop in case they might slip probably not. Its just something covering the shop if someone was to slip and try and sue or would it put someone off parking their car in car park where it said that 'vehicles contents are left at the owners risk' again probably not. Its the same concept a de facto meaningless sign that covers a company or an organisation in case of litigation.

    The sign would have to say something like "take care while alighting through centre doors". A sign that said "passengers who use centre doors to exit do so at their own risk" might as well say "I wouldn't use them centre doors if I were you".That's Just my 2 cents is all. You're not going to get any sign that completely absolves the driver of blame if something goes wrong.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Open centre door... Person falls out or down.... Close door... Drive off.... See nothing...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Btw I can understand DB mangement and drivers point of you about using centre doors. No company wants to be sued and nobody in their right mind wants to potentially lose their job.

    The problem is not with the drivers or DB mangement it is with passengers not taking enough care, ambulance chasing solictors and jobsworth judges who award these people money. If people were more careful/responsible for their own actions and they weren't looking for money that shouldn't be given to them in the first place. These tort cases are complete and utter nonsense and need to be stamped out.




  • Middle door usage has little to do with the thread topic


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    john boye wrote: »
    The sign would have to say something like "take care while alighting through centre doors". A sign that said "passengers who use centre doors to exit do so at their own risk" might as well say "I wouldn't use them centre doors if I were you".That's Just my 2 cents is all. You're not going to get any sign that completely absolves the driver of blame if something goes wrong.

    A sign like that would cover in all cases of litigation you'd find most people pay little regard to these health and safety warnings tbh. Many places put up signs saying management accepts no responsibility for loss/damage or injury which is fairly similar and nobody pays any attention to them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 345 ✭✭bebeman


    brokenarms wrote: »
    I dont use the centre doors if I cant get in. Management will (try to) nail me to a cross if someone falls. Quoting "you are the professional" in every situation.

    If I can get in, they always open.
    This is why I always go for an older one door busses.
    One less stress in my day.
    Stephen15 wrote: »


    In the depot when taking a bus out do have a choice of what bus you take I always thought all buses were allocated depending on route.
    .

    I think brokenarms might be a Larper.
    Stephen15 is correct, drivers have no choice in which bus to take out.

    So much false information posted by those claiming to be in the know.
    As a DB driver how does one go about establishing their bona fides around here?


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,462 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Open centre door... Person falls out or down.... Close door... Drive off.... See nothing...
    Sure they're off the bus at that point...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 345 ✭✭bebeman


    devnull wrote: »
    Because you cannot say that someone is never going to be held responsible no matter how badly they act because it removes any incentive for said person to act safely and encourages people to dangerous high stakes risks knowing that no matter what they do, however reckless they behave, however much they willfully derelict their duties, they will not get the blame.
    .
    Serious question, have you or any other here who complain about the use of middle doors seen the DB policy on the use of middle doors?
    I will say no, because if you had you would clearly see that they are only to be use in what can only be described as perfect conditions, very rare in dublin.


  • Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 74,773 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    bebeman wrote: »
    As a DB driver how does one go about establishing their bona fides around here?
    You don't, unless you wish to register as a Verified Representative. You can contact hello@boards.ie to discuss terms. Any questions PM me or one of the local mods. Do not respond here

    Thanks


  • Registered Users Posts: 756 ✭✭✭liger


    bebeman wrote: »
    Stephen15 is correct, drivers have no choice in which bus to take out.

    So much false information posted by those claiming to be in the know

    Maybe in your garage your bus is assigned every time.. I've been around most of them at this stage.. each garage is like an independent state, look at the runway in R/End. could be up to 8 buses sitting there waiting to go out, drivers choice what they take.

    Don't assume how your garage opperates is how they all opperate.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    There should be a declaration of interest thread again.

    Note: "Do not respond here" in the post you replied to!

    -- moderator


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    that was clearly directed to the poster the mod quoted.

    Please read the charter before posting again-- thanks.

    -- moderator


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 345 ✭✭bebeman


    Looks like you are dealing with the Bus workers action group.
    They seemed to have sprung up after a NBRU union rep in harristown was fired for stirring the ****.
    It has nothing to do with the NBRU,they dissavowed him before DB fired him.
    Google Bus workers action group, the top 2 results will tell all you need to know.
    socialistworkeronline.net/statement-by-socialist-bus-drivers/
    siptuactivist.wordpress.com/category/eugene-mcdonagh/

    You should have a system where posters who claim to be CIE staff have to prove who are before claiming to be staff and posting questionable info here.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    VG31 wrote: »
    Or just have passenger operated door opening buttons like they do in lots of countries, particularly on articulated buses. That's takes the responsibility away from the driver.
    Wouldn't this solve the problem perfectly?


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