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questions about ancient greece and sexuality

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  • 19-11-2013 5:00am
    #1
    carlowplayer
    Registered Users Posts: 519 ✭✭✭


    what were the ancient greeks views on sexuality?in particulary ive heard that beastiallia and zoophillia was rampant is this true and how prevalent was it? I know it was found alot in the arts and myths but it was probably meant as allegory and metaphors but was it practiced by the citizens and if so how was it viewed was it as unnaceptabe as it was today or was it tolerated?


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    #2
    TwoGallants
    Registered Users Posts: 159 ✭✭TwoGallants


    The use of the word 'rampant' is somewhat suspect.

    In general, the ancient Greeks (depending on what civilisation and what time period you're talking about, of course) had an inverted sense of morality when it came to same sex arrangements. Whereas today it is perfectly normal for two men to have sex with one another, it was largely considered a little strange in Ancient Greece. Older men having sex with much younger (teenage) men was relatively common, it was often seen as a rite of passage.

    Rome also had some strange attitudes to homosexuality. Many of the Roman Emperors had male (adult) lovers, and again this was generally frowned upon in Roman society. However, there was nothing unusual about a teenage Julius Caesar reputedly losing his virginity to the King of Pontus.


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    #3
    carlowplayer
    Registered Users Posts: 519 ✭✭✭carlowplayer


    I know about pedarastary but what about sex with animals.I know it was common practice in egypt but what about the greeks.Can you link to me to any academic sources as i want to settle this argument with a friend


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    #4
    Santa Cruz
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Santa Cruz


    TwoGallants wrote: »
    The use of the word 'rampant' is somewhat suspect.

    In general, the ancient Greeks (depending on what civilisation and what time period you're talking about, of course) had an inverted sense of morality when it came to same sex arrangements. Whereas today it is perfectly normal for two men to have sex with one another, it was largely considered a little strange in Ancient Greece. Older men having sex with much younger (teenage) men was relatively common, it was often seen as a rite of passage.

    Rome also had some strange attitudes to homosexuality. Many of the Roman Emperors had male (adult) lovers, and again this was generally frowned upon in Roman society. However, there was nothing unusual about a teenage Julius Caesar reputedly losing his virginity to the King of Pontus.


    Isn't that what got David Norris in to trouble during the Presidential election


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    #5
    TwoGallants
    Registered Users Posts: 159 ✭✭TwoGallants


    Santa Cruz wrote: »
    Isn't that what got David Norris in to trouble during the Presidential election

    Yes, Norris got in trouble for endorsing this state of affairs. Most people familiar with ancient Greek sexual customs merely shrugged their shoulders (including myself)


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    #6
    Reekwind
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,126 ✭✭✭Reekwind


    TwoGallants wrote: »
    However, there was nothing unusual about a teenage Julius Caesar reputedly losing his virginity to the King of Pontus.
    Actually Caesar constantly fought that rumour and considered it an insult

    In Rome all sexual relations, and particularly homosexual ones, were seen in terms of power. Caesar sleeping with another man wasn't a problem per se, what was was the insinuation that he'd been on the receiving end (ie penetrated). This was was mud that his political enemies continually used laughing at him as the 'Queen of Bithynia'


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    #7
    carlowplayer
    Registered Users Posts: 519 ✭✭✭carlowplayer


    er hello i kinda know about pedrastary and homosexual conduct.
    I also know that the romans despite what a certain movie with Malcolm Mcdowall and Helen Mirren leads to believe they wernt orgy crazy and i know that the coliseum wasnt used to martyr specifically christians as (suprise,suprise) christian historians at the time tended to conflate or exxagerate such things as a smear campaign,but what about other sexual practices like beastility.i know its a strange question which people seem to be avoiding answering but i want to settle this argument with a friend


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    #8
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    carlowplayer wrote: »
    er hello i kinda know about pedrastary and homosexual conduct.
    I also know that the romans despite what a certain movie with Malcolm Mcdowall and Helen Mirren leads to believe they wernt orgy crazy and i know that the coliseum wasnt used to martyr specifically christians as (suprise,suprise) christian historians at the time tended to conflate or exxagerate such things as a smear campaign,but what about other sexual practices like beastility.i know its a strange question which people seem to be avoiding answering but i want to settle this argument with a friend

    I have seen this line circulating on the internet before and I really feel the need to correct it. Christians were murdered in huge numbers by the Roman state and often by wild animals such as dogs. Roman executions often were used as spectacles in amphitheaters like the Colosseum. So its almost certain that Christians were specifically killed in the Colosseum even though there is no paperwork. We don't know the fine details of Rome's persecutions against Jews, Gauls etc but that does not mean it didn't happen.


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    #9
    Cork boy 55
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,324 ✭✭✭Cork boy 55


    Ancient sexual practices is not something I have read about or know much about
    I have noticed a trend in REcent TV shows and films to portray the Romans and Greeks
    as humping everything that moves, hookers everywhere,bi-sexuals everywhere etc, HBO rome spring to mind off top off head.
    Is this realistic or is it cultural Marxism and/or sex sells marketing at work.

    How did the ancients deal with STI if this is how Society behaved
    Surely a voracious promiscuous society would suffer greatly from them
    and would be at a disadvantage to a more conservative one.
    I am aware some STIs where brought in from New world and the Orient at later dates.

    I speculated before that the covering and control of females by the Oriental mystery cults that emerged in first millennium where partly inspired as a clumsy attempt to stop STI's I.e. control female sexuality control the disease, like how some of them banned eating pork.
    The Liberation of woman in the 20th century is correlated to advances in medicine

    As for the question of "zoophillia was rampant" I doubt it , even if it was acceptable cultural doubt it was rampant due to the significant health risks involved. It would a pretty quick way to get a nasty infection and a horrible death,
    Edit
    Just reading Wikipedia a lot of it appears to be propaganda
    The Greeks writers said the Egyptians where doing it
    The Romans said the Greeks where doing it
    A Norman writer even said he saw it happen in Ireland trying to justify the invasion 1169 LOL
    Various classical writers recorded that bestiality was common in other cultures

    ....

    Clergyman and chronicler Gerald of Wales claimed to have witnessed a man having intercourse with a horse as part of a pagan ritual in Ireland.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_and_cultural_perspectives_on_zoophilia


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    #10
    TwoGallants
    Registered Users Posts: 159 ✭✭TwoGallants


    It is highly probable that modern TV shows have exaggerated Roman and Greek sexual practises! In an age before any real form of contraception, STIs were certainly a daily threat. There probably were a lot of STIs roaming around, unfortunately there isn't enough written evidence to tell us much about this. Ancient medical sources are somewhat lacking, often the causes of diseases were poorly understood. They wouldn't always have been associated with sexual activity.

    Not sure about cultural Marxism or whatnot. While the ancients were not shy virgins, I doubt they were as sexually voracious as frequently depicted.


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    #11
    Emme
    Registered Users Posts: 4,055 ✭✭✭Emme


    TwoGallants wrote: »
    Yes, Norris got in trouble for endorsing this state of affairs. Most people familiar with ancient Greek sexual customs merely shrugged their shoulders (including myself)

    I don't think David Norris was endorsing anything. He was just stating what happened in ancient Greece. If David Norris had been straight and said the same thing there would have been no fuss.

    We can't do anything about what happened in ancient Greece and the reality is that most people were too busy trying to survive to engage in anything rampant. If anyone did it was the bohemians/elites and little has changed today. If you were to take the behavior of rock stars and the extremely wealthy as a standard for 21st century behavior you would think everyone is taking drugs, having sex left right and centre and that old heterosexual men only have sex with women 30 years younger than themselves.

    History doesn't record what ordinary people did, it only records what a select few did and this doesn't reflect the lives of ordinary people.


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    #12
    Balmed Out
    Registered Users Posts: 4,713 ✭✭✭Balmed Out


    Emme wrote: »
    I don't think David Norris was endorsing anything. He was just stating what happened in ancient Greece. If David Norris had been straight and said the same thing there would have been no fuss.

    He wrote to a foreign court on parliamentary stationary in an attempt to intervene in the case of a man who had sex (statutory rape) of a 15 year old boy when the man himself was 55. I really cant imagine how you think if the teenager was a girl it would have been any less of a scandal.


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    #13
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,664 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Having studied Greek social mores, TwoGallents has a good summary of it. An interesting book that deals in part with that is 'Courtesans and Fishcakes' by the late James Davidson.


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    #14
    TheFarrier
    Registered Users Posts: 607 ✭✭✭TheFarrier


    Quote:


    Clergyman and chronicler Gerald of Wales claimed to have witnessed a man having intercourse with a horse as part of a pagan ritual in Ireland.



    I have heard that part of the inauguration of the High King of Ireland was for the new king to have sex with a mare on the hill of Tara as a display of his sexual prowess.


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