3 New Navy Vessels for Irish Naval Service

jonnybigwallet · 25-05-2021 5:01pm

Emm...Interesting point of view. I read that the ships they are looking to get rid of are not robust enough for the task in hand but might pass muster for closer to shore patrols by the NS. MIGHT make sense to consider a bit of horse trading considering you could crew of theirs with one P90 crew?

sparky42 · 25-05-2021 5:15pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

Emm...Interesting point of view. I read that the ships they are looking to get rid of are not robust enough for the task in hand but might pass muster for closer to shore patrols by the NS. MIGHT make sense to consider a bit of horse trading considering you could crew of theirs with one P90 crew?

They aren’t getting used because there’s not enough demand for four of them in service, the Kiwis know what they want for a new hull, and that’s an ice rated hull for southern ocean patrol, the 60s have zero value for them. Besides which the government would be slaughtered for trading a new 60 due to manpower issues.

jonnybigwallet · 26-05-2021 2:34pm

Thanks for clarifying that point Sparky. Much appreciated!

Larbre34 · 26-05-2021 3:48pm

Seems the RNZN have been having some manpower issues of their own of late.

I'd hope our Government can finalise this deal pretty quickly and get the reorientation of the fleet completed.

The bullet should then be bitten and Eithne and the Peacocks retired forthwith, the two Lake Class will provide essentially the same capability as the latter with half the crew anyway. Then focus on running an 8 vessel flotilla in home waters until manpower issues can be addressed in some way and the MRV specified and ordered.

Personally I'd love to see one of the 3 retired vessels retained for training and reserve and public relations use, specifically by a strengthed NSR, probably a Peacock. If we don't have a national sail training vessel, lets teach reserves and students and kids about modern seamanship in a relatively modern powered ship.

Dohvolle · 26-05-2021 5:58pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

Seems the RNZN have been having some manpower issues of their own of late.

I'd hope our Government can finalise this deal pretty quickly and get the reorientation of the fleet completed.

The bullet should then be bitten and Eithne and the Peacocks retired forthwith, the two Lake Class will provide essentially the same capability as the latter with half the crew anyway. Then focus on running an 8 vessel flotilla in home waters until manpower issues can be addressed in some way and the MRV specified and ordered.

Personally I'd love to see one of the 3 retired vessels retained for training and reserve and public relations use, specifically by a strengthed NSR, probably a Peacock. If we don't have a national sail training vessel, lets teach reserves and students and kids about modern seamanship in a relatively modern powered ship.

Not in a Peacock. its an oddity is no many ways, in terms of handling and propulsion. Better keeping Eithne if anything, due to the numbers she can accommodate, if nothing else.

jonnybigwallet · 26-05-2021 7:57pm

Not sure about that. Sail Training vessel best option imo. Wasn't the asgard 2 insured? Build another and give some work to an irish firm to do the job.

Psychlops · 26-05-2021 9:31pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

Agree, there's people that already have a bit of money behind them that would love to do 5 years with the DF, the age limit should be raised to maybe 45.

Same for the IAC, I am 38 & would gladly join the PDF for a 5 yr stint.

sparky42 · 26-05-2021 9:37pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

Not sure about that. Sail Training vessel best option imo. Wasn't the asgard 2 insured? Build another and give some work to an irish firm to do the job.

Any money for that is long gone. There was some comments a few years ago about a “all island” ship since NI lost theirs as well but nothing came from it (and given current North-South relations not going to happen). The suggestion was something like the NZ steel hull ship I think.

27-05-2021 9:14am

sparky42 wrote: »

Any money for that is long gone. There was some comments a few years ago about a “all island” ship since NI lost theirs as well but nothing came from it (and given current North-South relations not going to happen). The suggestion was something like the NZ steel hull ship I think.

The problem is, there is never the money, in the good or the bad times Ireland needs an effective Naval service (just as it needs an air contingent and an armed military force).
There wasn't the money before the crash in the Celtic tiger, there certainly wasn't the money after the crash and there isn't the money since recovery and up till COVID and the money wont be there after, there is simply no interest or will (except for some instances for Officers, but limited or nothing for enlisted). It is not a political topic.
There is no interest in reforming or paying people in the PDF or helping retain people, and limited option in terms of training, especially for enlisted people.
Every resource (I mean people and equipment) has to be accounted for and made useful, until the defence forces has a comprehensive means to manage its resources and people capable and qualified to do so, little progress can be made. Capable and qualified people aren't going to be interested in staying or joining if conditions and pay arent good.
The PDF is not managed by the State well or seem like it is considered as a trusted resource. The PDF direct management doesnt seem to have any comprehensive long term plan other than day to day, week to week, year to year.

Not being able to retain people to crew a ship or maintain or fly aircraft shows there are systemic problems at a high level and this filters down to lower management levels.

Formerly served in the PDF, somewhat of a rant over

punchdrunk · 27-05-2021 9:59am

1874 wrote: »

The problem is, there is never the money, in the good or the bad times Ireland needs an effective Naval service (just as it needs an air contingent and an armed military force).
There wasn't the money before the crash in the Celtic tiger, there certainly wasn't the money after the crash and there isn't the money since recovery and up till COVID and the money wont be there after, there is simply no interest or will (except for some instances for Officers, but limited or nothing for enlisted). It is not a political topic.
There is no interest in reforming or paying people in the PDF or helping retain people, and limited option in terms of training, especially for enlisted people.
Every resource (I mean people and equipment) has to be accounted for and made useful, until the defence forces has a comprehensive means to manage its resources and people capable and qualified to do so, little progress can be made. Capable and qualified people aren't going to be interested in staying or joining if conditions and pay arent good.
The PDF is not managed by the State well or seem like it is considered as a trusted resource. The PDF direct management doesnt seem to have any comprehensive long term plan other than day to day, week to week, year to year.

Not being able to retain people to crew a ship or maintain or fly aircraft shows there are systemic problems at a high level and this filters down to lower management levels.

Formerly served in the PDF, somewhat of a rant over

Nail on the head, and now there’s talk of giving back this disfunctional, under resourced and underfunded organisation SAR responsibilities- the mind boggles!

The tokenism of “something is better than nothing”
The capability “on paper”, all of this needs to go away

Dohvolle · 27-05-2021 10:02am

The Only reason Asgard II got over the line in 1981 was Charlie Haughey, big sailing fan himself, being Taoiseach. We were after all, in the middle of the worst recession the country has faced to that point, or since. Back then of course Ireland had numerous boatbuilding companies capable of doing the Job, and Tyrrells of Arklow were one of the best of them. But it was never a Naval asset. It was owned by the DoD, not the DF.
We dodged a bullet when it did sink as so many other wood hull STVs had met similar fates around the world, usually with heavy losses. The Pride of Baltimore sticks out for me. Lost in a squall with her captain and 3 crew. The remaining 8 survived in a partially inflated liferaft for 4 days before being picked up by a passing tanker.

Larbre34 · 27-05-2021 2:37pm

Theres more to it than the practical application of a sail training vessel (and I don't wish to sound like JonnyBW here) but a mainly maritime nation like ours should have a sea going totem, a representative among the sailing ships of the World, a symbol of pride and ancient maritime heritage and bearer of the flag. Such a vessel can be a great asset to overseas promotion, trade and tourism, a place to host and exchange young mariners to teach and to learn.

jonnybigwallet · 27-05-2021 4:26pm

Larbre and me are on the same page about this one. Great minds think alike!

Dohvolle · 27-05-2021 5:21pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

Theres more to it than the practical application of a sail training vessel (and I don't wish to sound like JonnyBW here) but a mainly maritime nation like ours should have a sea going totem, a representative among the sailing ships of the World, a symbol of pride and ancient maritime heritage and bearer of the flag. Such a vessel can be a great asset to overseas promotion, trade and tourism, a place to host and exchange young mariners to teach and to learn.

Most definitely.
My point is, while those who hod the purse strings are inlanders who hold no value in the sea around us, it will be dismissed as a folly. I doubt there are many in Government who have ever even set foot on a ferry, let alone been in control of a watercraft of any sort, the Minister for Defence and Foreign affairs being a notable exception.
The value of a seagoing asset bearing the flag of the state participating in events worldwide was well demonstrated by Asgard II. Recently the same thing is being done by Naval vessels, when available, but it isn't always an appropriate use of such a resource.
Fact is we could get a Steel hulled brigantine, built new, easily for a portion of the DoD surplus returned to exchequer since Asgard II sunk. Or a portion of the cost overrun of the Childrens Hospital.
But there is as much will to do so as there is to build a Presidential yacht for the small man with the big dogs who lives in Phoenix park.

Stovepipe · 27-05-2021 10:16pm

I totally agree . Asgard II was a fantastic ship, a great training vessel and a credit to the nation and a great ambassador for all of us. It was run by an office of four paid staff and the rest of the people who manned it were all volunteers. I might be biased because I did one of the week long tours on her and it was brilliant. The whole operation was run for relatively small money,out of the DoD budget and it functioned SO well. It should have been replaced within months, even if they bought a replacement vessel from abroad.

sparky42 · 27-05-2021 10:29pm

Stovepipe wrote: »

I totally agree . Asgard II was a fantastic ship, a great training vessel and a credit to the nation and a great ambassador for all of us. It was run by an office of four paid staff and the rest of the people who manned it were all volunteers. I might be biased because I did one of the week long tours on her and it was brilliant. The whole operation was run for relatively small money,out of the DoD budget and it functioned SO well. It should have been replaced within months, even if they bought a replacement vessel from abroad.

To be fair, given the time she went down, I could see every langer on the Left kicking off even for the small monies we are talking about. I mean it was around the same time we had TDs asking why the P60 class had to be ordered, wasn't it cheaper just to keep the old hulls in service.

To be clear, I agree that she was a very good asset for the nation for little money and should be replaced but as ever DOD/Finance/TDs/public are going to each be stumbling blocks to it.

ohnonotgmail · 28-05-2021 10:10am

sparky42 wrote: »

To be fair, given the time she went down, I could see every langer on the Left kicking off even for the small monies we are talking about. I mean it was around the same time we had TDs asking why the P60 class had to be ordered, wasn't it cheaper just to keep the old hulls in service.

To be clear, I agree that she was a very good asset for the nation for little money and should be replaced but as ever DOD/Finance/TDs/public are going to each be stumbling blocks to it.

But was she not insured?

ted1 · 28-05-2021 10:12am

Larbre34 wrote: »

Theres more to it than the practical application of a sail training vessel (and I don't wish to sound like JonnyBW here) but a mainly maritime nation like ours should have a sea going totem, a representative among the sailing ships of the World, a symbol of pride and ancient maritime heritage and bearer of the flag. Such a vessel can be a great asset to overseas promotion, trade and tourism, a place to host and exchange young mariners to teach and to learn.

Yep and to think we built the Jamie Johnson and Dunbrody and have just tied them up, it’s beyond a joke

Purgative · 28-05-2021 10:16am

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

But was she not insured?

My experience in the UK, government departments usually "self insure" if that's not too much of an oxymoron.

Dohvolle · 28-05-2021 10:21am

I used to have a poster on the door of my bedroom in my parents house, of Asgard II flying her giant tricolour as she sailed into Sydney Harbour.
I don't think a ship of the state has done so since then, and that was 1988. The sight of its crew aloft (only 4 of whom were professional, or even experienced seafarers) was to me an example to the youth of Ireland.
I have fantastic memories of my first time seeing her enter Cork, when she was almost new, Standing at the wheel, never thinking that before that decade was out, I would clime to the very top of her masts and down the other side, steer her for a time as she crossed the Irish sea, sleep in her surprisingly comfortable bunks, or avoid pooping in her heads, lest I block the system with more than 3 sheets of bog roll...(thats why we visited yacht clubs...).
Our October voyage was a lumpy one, but she was a solid ship in all weathers, and I have nothing but good memories of my time aboard her, either as crew, or later on, during her maintenance periods with the Asgard Support group in Cork, Or Dublin for the Boat show at the Point Depot.
The fact she was left to rot on the bottom of the bay of Biscay when recovery would have only cost €3m is a national disgrace.

Dohvolle · 28-05-2021 10:24am

ted1 wrote: »

Yep and to think we built the Jamie Johnson and Dunbrody and have just tied them up, it’s beyond a joke

Neither are designed to sail, both were designed as floating museums, and that's where they should be left. Dunbrody can only be towed from a to b, her sails are for display only.
Jeannie Johnson is only slightly better, but is not a pretty ship, with a pointlessly undersized engine.

Stovepipe · 28-05-2021 10:33am

Jeannie Johnson is not regarded as a good ship to sail,in the fashion of a camel being a horse designed by a committee. The professional sailors that I talked to about it had sailed her and disliked it very much. The Asgard II was regarded as a delight to sail by them.

ted1 · 28-05-2021 11:01am

Dohvolle wrote: »

Neither are designed to sail, both were designed as floating museums, and that's where they should be left. Dunbrody can only be towed from a to b, her sails are for display only.
Jeannie Johnson is only slightly better, but is not a pretty ship, with a pointlessly undersized engine.

The JJ WAS designed to sail and indeed the JJ did sail between 2002 snd 2008.

She enjoyed an illustrious sailing career from 2002 to 2008, retracing the Famine-era voyages from Blennerville to Qubec. She has sailed all around Ireland and Europe, as well as visiting several American ports like Washington DC, New York, Boston, Baltimore and Philadelphia and has even taken part in the Tall Ships Race in 2005. She has been moored at Custom House Quay since 2008.

Dohvolle · 28-05-2021 11:03am

Stovepipe wrote: »

Jeannie Johnson is not regarded as a good ship to sail,in the fashion of a camel being a horse designed by a committee. The professional sailors that I talked to about it had sailed her and disliked it very much. The Asgard II was regarded as a delight to sail by them.

She was designed by a naval architect, who had built one other sailing vessel before that(Which also ended up as a museum ship), and built by apprentices with no experience of building sailing vessels. It took 6 years to build it. The ship it was based on would have been built in a fraction of the time using no modern tools or methods. It was sitting complete, except for masts in Blennerville in 1998 but did not make it to the water until 2000. They had to add a steel keel for stability midway through her building and this makes her quite "stiff" in response.
Perhaps the designer was so focused on the design of the original he neglected to remember that these ships in their time never travelled empty. Many buildings in New England are built with stone quarried in Cork, brought over as ballast by ships bringing Grain and cotton back from the Americas to Europe.

Dohvolle · 28-05-2021 11:12am

ted1 wrote: »

The JJ WAS designed to sail and indeed the JJ did sail between 2002 snd 2008.

She enjoyed an illustrious sailing career from 2002 to 2008, retracing the Famine-era voyages from Blennerville to Qubec. She has sailed all around Ireland and Europe, as well as visiting several American ports like Washington DC, New York, Boston, Baltimore and Philadelphia and has even taken part in the Tall Ships Race in 2005. She has been moored at Custom House Quay since 2008.

JJ attended the Tall ships race in 2005. She did not participate. She does not fit the criteria as an entrant due to her large full time crew.

Stovepipe · 28-05-2021 1:46pm

Dohvolle wrote: »

She was designed by a naval architect, who had built one other sailing vessel before that(Which also ended up as a museum ship), and built by apprentices with no experience of building sailing vessels. It took 6 years to build it. The ship it was based on would have been built in a fraction of the time using no modern tools or methods. It was sitting complete, except for masts in Blennerville in 1998 but did not make it to the water until 2000. They had to add a steel keel for stability midway through her building and this makes her quite "stiff" in response.
Perhaps the designer was so focused on the design of the original he neglected to remember that these ships in their time never travelled empty. Many buildings in New England are built with stone quarried in Cork, brought over as ballast by ships bringing Grain and cotton back from the Americas to Europe.

The Captain who had sailed the Asgard II and the JJ and many others said to me, " the JJ can't get out of it's own way",meaning that it was unpleasant to sail as it would not steer straight and constantly weaved about/would not hold a heading. Now,I know that sailing ships need constant minor adjustment, like driving a car, but he said that it was tiring to steer the whole time and it was not correctly trimmed and was too heavy.

Larbre34 · 15-06-2021 9:56pm

Hilarious headline on The Guardian tonight.

'Irish Battleship to fly flag of Munster in Bloomsday celebration.'

Apparently it references a line in Ulysses where the character 'Citizen' (a xenophobe and anti-semite) desires to see precisely that, to annoy the thicklugged English.

I would have thought it slightly sketchy territory for the DF to get involved in, however in any case, the 'Joyce' will indeed fly the Three Castles as it traverses Scotsman's Bay in Dun Laoghaire tomorrow, passing the 40 ft and the Joyce Museum.

sparky42 · 15-06-2021 10:05pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

Hilarious headline on The Guardian tonight.

'Irish Battleship to fly flag of Munster in Bloomsday celebration.'

Apparently it references a line in Ulysses where the character 'Citizen' (a xenophobe and anti-semite) desires to see precisely that, to annoy the thicklugged English.

I would have thought it slightly sketchy territory for the DF to get involved in, however in any case, the 'Joyce' will indeed fly the Three Castles as it traverses Scotsman's Bay in Dun Laoghaire tomorrow, passing the 40 ft and the Joyce Museum.

Here she is already:
https://www.facebook.com/irishnavalservice/photos/a.524540657628835/4028753270540872/?__cft__%5B0%5D=AZXuGSQeWY61KI4MGYuWWuKxbAjuIpk1KXWXeKuXU5RqIxArWU_ZCB6LlQd2fcyp2D4PmsAbPN4uc4ncAN51F10jb3UiOh1eLwnERDQqPHzqIyubSqXRWlXvIyBMX2MK0TygTCuAgTW7rfCQf-G6AFIH&__tn__=EH-R

Dohvolle · 16-06-2021 9:50am

sparky42 wrote: »

Here she is already:
https://www.facebook.com/irishnavalservice/photos/a.524540657628835/4028753270540872/?__cft__%5B0%5D=AZXuGSQeWY61KI4MGYuWWuKxbAjuIpk1KXWXeKuXU5RqIxArWU_ZCB6LlQd2fcyp2D4PmsAbPN4uc4ncAN51F10jb3UiOh1eLwnERDQqPHzqIyubSqXRWlXvIyBMX2MK0TygTCuAgTW7rfCQf-G6AFIH&__tn__=EH-R

All just an excuse for trinners types to wear boaters and pretend it's 1904 again.

Larbre34 · 16-06-2021 3:07pm

Dohvolle wrote: »

All just an excuse for trinners types to wear boaters and pretend it's 1904 again.

I think you're being a little harsh. Yes, Joycean scholars do have that image, but Ulysses is an everyman story and its being made more accessible all the time. If nothing else it's always been a great excuse for a big piss up and some great publicity for the City and the seaside suburbs. Literary heritage and tourism is a massive market.

3 New Navy Vessels for Irish Naval Service

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